Talk:Mandala (Southeast Asian history)
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The origins of the system are a gap in my knowledge; I've come across hints that it may be connected to the Chinese or Indian systems, but Thongchai seems to say the term itself is of modern introduction. I don't know to what extent it existed under the Indianised states (Angkor and before). I have the impression that Angkor was more unitary, and that the others were too shadowy for us to know much about them. Markalexander100 03:27, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] the mandala state was regionwide
The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it. See From Sacred Origins to Sovereign Affairs in Traditional Southeast Asia. The article needs expansion. The mandala system is a modern heuristic, but it is used to describe the devaraja cult in the Indianised kingdoms of Southeast Asia, instead of being specific to the region the article describes. The Sultanate of Malacca has been described as a type example of the mandala state. Southeast Asian history articles have a common flaw of focusing on national histories, even though the contemporary national borders are of relatively recent origin. (Anon)
- I don't understand your point. You say "the mandala state was regionwide"- assuming you mean the southeast Asia region, yes. That's what the article says. If you're thinking of a larger region, which region? Malacca, the last time I looked was also in southeast Asia. Your link doesn't work, by the way. HenryFlower 11:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Indian Origins and Citations
"The mandala system was first described in the Arthashastra although sadly our article says nothing about it."
Now it points to Tambiah's work. I'll add some citations to Wolters, Chutintaranond, Lieberman's work, and Stuart-Fox.
The whole page might read a little bit better if the essentials were picked out of the defining works. Wolters revisted this idea that he largely created, with help from Tambiah and the Arthasastra, in 1999 right before he died. In the revised edition of his book, he reviews most of the progress in applying the term "mandala" to actual history since his original writing of 1982.
(Jonfernquest 17:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Name change: Mandala (Southeast Asian history)
I've never seen the phrase "mandala system" even once. Naming it "Mandala (Southeast Asian history)" is really more accurate.
The historians who really make productive use of the concept like Sunait Chutintaranond, use the concept to help show that political structure was not as unified and centralized as previously thought.
The criteria I would use as to whether this article is accurate or not, is whether I would use it for a university class on Southeast Asian history or not, and I wouldn't. Why? It has to focus on what a "mandala" is and what it is not. Mandalas are a lot like the segmentary state in Indian history and like forms of social organization in political anthropology that come before the state like the chieftainship. It is not a universally accepted and used metaphor or idea. Lieberman does not use it.
I'll change the name, but the previous synonym will still exist.
(Jonfernquest 04:54, 31 August 2006 (UTC))
[edit] Cutting and Simplifying
"The term mandala in this context is of modern origin; as it was the standard system of the time, its practitioners did not require terminology to discuss the system or to contrast it with others."
I cut this because it is too long-winded. It's a model of Southeast Asian history that was originated in about 1982 with roots that go back deeper.
"This pattern of power relationships is said to have existed between the states of south-east Asia until the advent of European cultural and political colonisation in the mid-19th century."
I cut this because it isn't true. According to Stuart-Fox (1998) the Mandalas of Laos-Lan Xang ended with the conquest by Siam which was an indigenous Southeast Asian kingdom. Likewise, the the expansionary warfare of the Burmese state (c. 1539-1630) put an end to many of the mandalas in the Shan states.
The contributions of Wolter, Ajaan Sunait, and Thongchai Witichakun have to be made clearer with citations. (Jonfernquest 02:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC))
[edit] List of states
The list of states needs revision. Righty now it's just a list of contemporary Southeast Asian countries without mention of Srivijaya, any of the Javanese kingdoms, or historical formations like Champa or the Khmer empire. Alan 01:34, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
