Talk:Malmö

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Contents

[edit] notorious ghetto boiling with riots

hi fellowed malmöiter!

An IP-user added this paraphfgar:

Social problems
A large part of the population in Malmö are immigrants. The notorious ghetto Rosengård is boiling with gangs and riots, and the unemployment ratio is very high. When the Islamic mosque burned down in 2002, immigrants were throwing rocks at the firemen thus preventing them from putting out the fire. Fox News did a cover story on the severe immigrant problems in Malmö in 2004.

Maybe not a totally accurate descritpion. I'm sure every city has "social problems" if you look deep enough. What do we compare to? Malmö has 16% immigrants or similar. London and Paris have far greater (I think). If you have ever been to Rosengård I don't think you would find it boiling with riots.... The unemployment ratio is high among immigrants in Rosengård, but to say "very high" is not accurate... in some parts it is 20% , in some 50%. The islamic mosque did not burn down (I live just 200 meters from it and should know) , an adjacent not finished schoolbuilding did, and another adjacent building.

--Fred chessplayer 09:25, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

User:212.247.86.17, who added the passage in question, seems to originate in Helsingborg. In my judgement, (s)he attempts to use Wikipedia as a propagandist tool. He is, of course, not alone in such habits, but there is no reason why the text should remain. One of the things Wikipedia least of all ought to be is a forum of discussion.

I have, however, absolutely nothing against figures for segregation and immigration and so on. But the article must be balanced and credible, not a vehicle for xenophobic parties that hope to get the same influence east for Öresund as they now have in the west.

I removed both the passage and the npov-banner. --Johan Magnus 15:28, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Social problems

Ok, I've found a source for the Fox News thing about Social Problems in Malmö. Here is a page I recommend with a discussion and a link to the Fox News story. [1] When I'm writing this, only the google cache works: [2]

A quick google search give other link that have drawn from the Fox story:

As the linked discussion page above suggests the Fox News article is very biased. I expect nothing else from a series focused on the Muslim Threat in Europe.

Someone might visit the Malmö article after watching the story on Fox, so it may be a good idea to write about the subject Social Problems in Malmö. I don't follow the debates in Sydsvenskan or read the paper at all, but someone who does and feels obliged to set things straight is welcomed to write...

--Fred chessplayer 02:14, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You may want to continue on my attempt at Malmö#Economy. --Johan Magnus 04:45, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

...I also, when I was at it, restructured the initial section, whos heavy exercise of population figures has disturbed me. I forgot to put something in the edit-summary, though. ;-/ --Johan Magnus 05:29, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I might do it later. It looks OK though. --Fred chessplayer 05:41, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] William Borroughs

So , did you just remove my info at will? I request you put it back. --Fred chessplayer 05:41, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The year of the establishment of Gamla Kyrkogården and the year of the inaguration of the bridge?[4] In the context of nightlife and entertainments? You think that's the right place? Central cemetries are strange only to Americans used to New Towns. Mind you, from Föreningsgatan virtually to Rosengård there is an even larger one! ;-)
But of course, if you insist! Do you? --Johan Magnus 07:51, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why is not Gamla kyrkogården and the influence of Oresundsbron interesting? And the topic is not nightlife, but miscellanious. I'm not going to discuss this though, I can only refer you to wikipedia policy not to delete others' material (unless it is wrong or copyvio). At most, if you think it is wrongly placed, you should move it to a more appropriate place. Because it did take me some time to find the material in question, and it is of course discouraging if you just remove it. I'm not going to reinsert it in some other place though, since you might then delete it again.
Personally I would, and might will, write about the cemetary in the centre of the city. I don't know if only Americans are unfamiliar with this concept. The cemetary is, IMO, ugly and takes up a lot of space. But it is also a part of Malmö's history. --Fred chessplayer 23:11, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I didn't realize that you entered the Borroughs quotation with the aim to criticize the cemetry. However, I judged your text by its own merits, and found the prose to be unnecessarily burdened by the long parenthetical comments. With all due respect, I didn't find it badly located, just without much relevance in the context. My sincerest ambition was to improve the text, not to pursue any city planning agenda, although I have nothing against traces that reminds about the history of the town, of which that cemetry is one, located in the periphery of the town that was protected by moats and walls. I propose you try to put your comments on cemetries and changes due to the bridge in contexts of their own. Remember: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly... do not submit it.
--Johan Magnus 08:09, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If you thought the text was misplaced, why didn't you just move it? --Fred chessplayer 16:58, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I improved it! :-) --Johan Magnus 08:05, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Toumas: Nice to see that some of my changes were left intact... and I like how you arranged the thing about Burroughs. But I do ask: have you read the page about Multiculturalism? Please the the page. In what way do you think it does not fit to describe Malmö? I consider it to do so very much, and for that reason I have to change it back to what it was. Respond if you object. I like the other edits. Except that I personally don't consider Arlöv and Limhamn important enough to be in the introduction. --Fred chessplayer 19:57, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm convinced you'll gain from appreciating the cooperative nature of Wikipedia.
Belonging to one of those cultures an asserted multiculturalism ought to refer to, I just don't see any traces of other cultures than a Swedish (or often Scanian) expressed as anything else than as (more or less supressed) subcultures. Concurring with the article on multiculturalism, I consider it a bad joke to say that Malmö should seriously strive to become that — let alone already have become.
I think you better explain where you see manifestations of different cultures being considered equal and being equally treated.
Best regards!
/Tuomas 22:01, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Hello. Thanks for your advice. I'm sure you have a point in your comment. But I think the foreign influence can't be ignored. Don't you agree that all falafel, pizza and kebab shops and all shops around Möllan are the result of multiculturalism, and furthermore most politicians in the Möllevången stadsdel (and probably in other places) are foreigners? --Fred chessplayer 08:33, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yes, that's multi-ethnic, not proof of a multi-cultural society. Take holidays for instance. They are solidly attached to one Lutheran Swedish culture. /Tuomas 13:05, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Spelling of "Skåne" is important information since the name Scania isn't that well known and used. I for instance have always spelled it as "Skane". Also the name "Skåne" appears in the info box in the word "Skåne County".

Secondly I don't understand why the number 250,000 should link to Malmö Urban Area. It makes little sense.

Third, the way the paragraph about the Oresund Region is written now is more clear than the way it was written before, since it may be mistaken that the population figure of 3,5000,000 goes for just these two areas, when in fact they go for the Region in total.

These are the opinions I hold.

--Fred chessplayer 22:30, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

the reason i originally added 'skåne' was because a) that is the name of the county, not scania. i feel it is important to introduce the name of places in their language and then, if absolutely necessary, use a translation. b) i've never heard scania before in my life. c) if you look at other references to locations in and around malmö, they are referred to using the swedish name, and then translated. and malmö is never translated, nor even spelled without ö.

on to the reverts: they don't make sense. i agree with fred chessplayer here. it's the entire region of öresund, not just copenhagen and malmö, that amount to 3 500 000 people. also, the second 'with' keeps coming back when you revert anyways. should you insist on reverting, i insist grammar is corrected.

--Jocke 01:56, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hi Jocke, hi again Fred!
I am not quite convinced that it was a wise move to designate the Swedish landskap in Latin, as is done, although I can see some advantages with this. However, in case you really think that their best known names in English are "Skåne", "Västergötland", and so on, then you shouldn't start here, but by renaming the articles in question. (All of them, i guess! :-)
I realize that I may appear smug, but that's not at all my intention. I wish to keep the Wikipedia articles conform with eachother.
I am, by the way, not quite convinced that I remeber where it says that "No unknown info in the Introduction" is policy. Can you help me out, Fred?
/Tuomas 10:55, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hello! Look at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Lead_section>. While it is not a policy, it is a guideline.
There is also a policy ( I think ) that unknown terms should be given a shorter explaination. If an American comes to this page , and reads "ah, he was born in Scania" how should he know what is Scania? This is why I keep adding the word "province" :-) --Fred chessplayer 11:25, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Adding "province of" is good, imho.
The reader that arrives to the page and reads "Malmö [...] (...) is the largest city in Scania and southern Sweden." understands from the context that "Scania" is an entity that can contain a city but is smaller than Sweden. If the reader doesn't know what Sweden or Scania is, then he might guess or he might click on the links. If he is interested in the Swedish name for Scania, or for Sweden, he is likely to check at these pages.
If "Skåne" is better known for native English-speakers, then the article name (of the article on Scania) ought to be changed, and Scania be made into a redirect. After that we have no, or very little, reason to use "Scania" at all.
The point is that this is not the place for that discussion. As long as the title of the article remains Scania, we do assume that "Scania" is the best known name in English, and then the addition of "Skåne" appears to be nothing but a foreign language distorsion for the reader of the English text on Malmö. :-)
Thank you, for the direction to the guideline, by the way.
/Tuomas 11:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This is my opp on the intro: For us it is obvious what Scania is, but how can someone from another continent know? It could be a district, a province, an area. It also seems important to mention that Scania is the southernmost province in Sweden, since this is vital information for anyone who wants to visit it; however I'm tired of having my edits reverted all the time so I'm leaving it be for now.
A geographical map would also be great -- I've heard with lantmätariet, but their maps are not Public Domain and I don't know how else to acquire one.
A recent encyclopedia begins Malmö city and port, seat of Skåne län (county), southern Sweden. It is located across The Sound (Öresund) from Copenhagen, Denmark. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9050357
if people call scania skåne, why should we not do it? we are not the language police... i would consider it great if someone would give an explaination in the article -- I and Jocke have tried -- , but it seems other contributors are more interested in deleting others edits than making edits of their own.
I consider Vancouver a good model for how to make a page about a city. But it is a matter of taste, and I think the intro is OK as it is and will not change it. In any case, it's nice to see your interest in the article along with your latest edit on immigration! --Fred chessplayer 16:56, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
  • Not seeing all of one's edits survive is part of life here around.
  • You ask "If people call Scania Skåne..." - and this is an important point that I tried to address above. It can't be delt with on the level of this singular article. It must be delt with in a way that contributes to increased consistency within Wikipedia. (A quick google test gives me the impression that "Scania" and "Skåne" appears about equally often in English texts on the WWW. Your points thus can not be dismissed without serious consideration.)
  • The good thing with the internal wiki-links is that you don't have to explain things at the place where you use a linked concept. Explanations of what Scania (or Skåne) is can be made, and are better made, in the article on Scania. To illustrate this point: the Vancouver article does not give specifics about British Columbia, that is left to the very article on British Columbia.
  • It's a very valid and relevant question, whether it's more important to point out Malmö as a Swedish or as a Scanian city, since trying to press in references to
    1. Towns of Scania
    2. List of cities in Sweden
    3. Scania (as one of the provinces of Sweden)
    4. Skåne County
may make the prose too un-inviting, which is a bad thing for the start of an introduction.
  • I'm not particularly good at keeping track of Wikipedia policies, but some direction is to be found at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). The Wikipedia-internal controversy is demonstrated at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English).
  • Consistency within Wikipedia, with Wikipedia guidelines and policies, and with other Wikipedia articles is (according to what I perceive as the dominant opinion here) more important than concistency with other encyclopedias. It goes without saying that different encyclopedias aren't necessarily consistent with eachother.
/Tuomas 22:45, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
if one were to actually look at the scania article, one would find 'scania' being used as the title and initial reference only, and then 'skåne' throughout the rest of the article (with the exception of the 'terra scania' reference). i would take that as a sign to therefore use 'skåne' within an article, as is done in the scania article. also, the naming conventions tuomas gave only seems to point at this practice - use english for article titles, use native elsewhere. if i'm mistaken, find another article to prove me wrong, please. --Jocke 07:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I don't think there is much to add to this discussion. But maybe we ought to Wikipedia:state the obvious: Someone who is proficient in English has acquired the pattern to pronunce Scania but not Skåne.
Skåne is a good name, but it looks alien to the English reader and disturbs the reading process and decreases the credibility and makes the text look less professional. There is a great difference between using it in the article on Scania, where it can be properly explained, a pronunciation guide can be provided, etc, etc, ...compared to using it in other articles.
You read Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (use English), didn't you?
--Johan Magnus 16:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A note on the Sound file

According to the village pump at wikimedia commons, file names with special characters may lead to problem. But Wikipedia English will update their software in mid-June, when this problem hopefully will be solved. Until then, sound files such as Malmö, Göteborg and Östersund will not always work (it apparently only works for some people). --Fred-Chess 09:54, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Lead IPA

There's a been a very insistent fiddling with phonetic transcription in the lead, and quite incorrect to boot. However, to avoid further bickering, I have now changed the IPA to illustrate phonemic transcription which is equally applicable to virtually all dialects. Only long vowels are diphthongized in Swedish and the /ø:/ is under no circumstance pronounced with an [e] (the same vowel as in the words lek or fel), but rather with a glide that is best described as [œø:]. Tentatively it could be said that in rapid colloquial speech it would be pronounced as an [ɛ] (the unrounded equivalent of [œ], but this is quite speculative and most likely very specific to certain contexts and dialects, e.i. not helpful to any non-Swedes. If anyone wishes to change it again, please show that you have a basic knowledge of IPA or of Swedish phonology (no matter the dialect).

Peter Isotalo 12:43, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Having taught Swedish for most of the last 30 years, and most of that as an employee of Malmö municipality, I guess I have that basic knowledge. (I have, of course, no idea what IPA ɛ should stand for, but it's well known that the short /e/ and short schwa may appear hard to distinguish when there is no need for distinction, as would be the case here.)
The final sound of Malmö is no [ø]-sound. That would be hypercorrect. No-one says so, except in declamatory style. The used sound is not rounded, which can easily be seen if observing speakers. Whether it's closer to open-mid or close-mid cardinal sounds may be disputed.
The previous vowel is long and diphthongized.
E. Olofsson/Family Olofsson 15:10, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
IPA transcriptions are certainly not decided merely by the local dialect of a particular town or city. The only dialect that is perceived as neutral in Swedish is Central Standard Swedish and this is what most Swedes would expect if, for example, being provided with a pronunciation file. Non-Swedes are certainly no exception and are not in the least helped by impressionistic analyses by people who don't know IPA. And since I am a native Swede myself and pronounce the word the way I hear it mostly, it feels very odd to hear someone calling it "hypercorrect".
Christian Elert describes the dipthongs of Scanian and the southern dialects in Allmän och svensk fonetik, and he does mention [e] or [ə]-sounding pronunciations when it comes to the long phonemes /u/ and /ʉ/, but /ø/ is described as mentioned in my previous post. It really makes very little sense that they be centralized, since the direction of Southern Swedish dipthongs is outwards, not inwards. It's actually the dipthongs of Central Swedish that are directed inwards and very prone to [ə]-glides. Other than that the schwa seems to be common only as unstressed /e/.
I'm reinserting the phonetic transcription and if you object, I would like to see more than just personal opinion.
Peter Isotalo 19:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Education

This paragraph:

Malmö has a variety of both public and private schools. One of the most notable private schools is Bladins, with an impeccable reputation and huge waiting lists. Malmö Borgarskola is the largest high school in the city, also holding the renowned IB school, one of the best in the World, rivaling that of London, Paris and New York. The most popular school however is S:t Petri skola [2], with extraordinary students as well as teachers. The school is the only school of languages in the whole city and we invite you to visit us in our old but also modern equipped building on the 22.11.05 at 18.00-21.00 o'clock.

Is advertisement allowed in Wikipedia? "Extraordinary students"?!!

No, it shouldn't be. I removed it. // Fred-Chess 09:10, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Malmö crime

From article

City police have recently lost control over certain ghettos in Malmö. As rape has become a serious problem in and near these neighbourhoods, female travelers should make sure to locate these areas in Malmö and avoid them.
Ambulance drivers and parking inspectors who will not enter say their uniform draws the attention of gangs of Muslim youth, and police do not enter without backup. These areas were the grounds of an unfortunate 24-day series of rapes and attacks in August. City police are in the process of adapting to the new situation in Malmö. There are also online debates being held at the Swedish Muslim forum about an internal solution to the matter.

Aftonbladet and Expressen are not reliable sources.

Fred-Chess 16:00, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Ah, blaming everything on the foreigners, again, I see. --Anittas 17:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, many of the criminals (i.e., people committing crimes, such as rape and assault) are Swedish-born Muslims. They aren't foreigners then, are they? Also, isn't it terribly POV to baldly claim that Aftonbladet and Expressen aren't reliable? Why not? Says who? Please back up your claim. From looking at the Aftonbladet page on Wikipedia, I see it is called a tabloid albeit a serious one, and its readership is in the top five. It seems like a mainstream media source, perfectly acceptable for a source in Wikipedia.
Both papers reported much the same things about Malmo, yet you decided to remove it. Why? Are two sources too few? How about getting the same or similar information from other sources? Is Fox news "not reliable," too? Check this [5] out, which is Fox's coverage of much the same topic. This information is verifiable from multiple sources, and needs to go back into the article.
I don't mind having that text added there, even though it's a bit biased, it can be completed with additional info, such as why these things occur, etc. I don't know where you read that most rapists are second-generation Muslims. I would like to read that. I thought that most rapers were ethnical Swedish. --Candide, or Optimism 23:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
  1. Blah... The second article in your reference seems to have been moved? I don't know if you have even read the sources, but the third article doesn't even mention Malmö. I also looked up the forum but frankly I couldn't find anything concrete that can be used as a reference. Last, please use references that are not sensation journalism. Yes, Aftonbladet and Expressen live on selling sensational information and have that as their unavoidable point of view. If stuff like this is supposed to be included in an article, it needs to have proper references, particularly comparisment with other cities, and actual statistics. This brings us to the second point of the objection:
  2. Besides the lack of reference, there is an obvious bias in the post. The proper name of Malmö's suburbs is suburb, not ghetto. The fact that crime occured 24 days in August does not say more than that -- crime occur in every city, and Malmö's crime rate is a far cry from the Crime in Washington, D.C. or that in Moscow. Comparisment with other Swedish cities is needed if it is supposed to make sense. The expression "police has lost control" is also an obvious POV phrase.
Fred-Chess 00:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


Fox news is not reliable, they have their own agenda to push they are one of the worst and most biased POW pushing tv channels out there when it comes to the news programs. (Deng 05:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC))
But I thought that the Swedes also blamed these things on the foreigners. ;) --Candide, or Optimism 06:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


Ok first to insert such info you need a source you havent sourced it so it can be removed.
2 the text was made if you can find it that is with an agenda, which is to cause hatred of all non-swedes by useing the sentance 16% are muslims you are not stateing fact but creating an opinion that sweden is over run by Islamitic fundamentalists. This was created by fox news as their propaganda against all muslims and that they are all criminals and that they must all die. You are playing on prejudice and hatered by stateing that
3 There is no need to place it at the very top of the article except if you purpose is to fuel hatred of all non-swedes
4 no source no dice
(Deng 11:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC))

I am no Swede but this article lacks reasonable (from any view) information about its demographics. Whether its the "Islamitic fundamentalists" or the "fox news propaganda" it'd be great if some reasonable, npov content was generated with accuracy. michael talk 12:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Perhaps I could start writing on it, trying to get it into a "Good article" state. Local sources have an inherent bias, so I'd appreciate outside sources of any kind if anyone can find such. Just to make sure the article gets the necessary NPOV. / Fred-Chess 19:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Any kind of other comments and suggestions are also welcome. / Fred-Chess 19:56, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be easy to source some of what is written here by referring to statistics (hey, Swedes are past masters at statistics!) or the local newspapers (Sydsvenskan, and up to its demise in 2000, Arbetet). They've both been frank about the situation when it comes to crime and social division in the city without falling into Fox News-style panic and racist allegations. The trouble is of course, those sources are in Swedish, and according to the principles exerciced here, non-English sources have to be sourced and stated fact by fact which would lead to a blurred and tedious image.

Living within 10 miles distance from Malmö. and going there several times a month, I don't feel threatened when I'm walking its streets but i'm aware that the city has its quirks and that in some ways it's more "Brixton-like" than almost any other place in Sweden. It's also very obvious that its political establishment is trying hard to create a new flashy image of the city; that's been a recurrent theme since the eighties. Sometimes they seem just a bit too eager to jump at any new project which promises to invest Malmö with a new aura of (post)modernity. Today is Election Day and within 24 hours both Malmö and Sweden may have settled for a new political direction.Strausszek September 17, 2006 02:10 (CEST).

[edit] Rewrite

Do the lay out like countires have it or something similar, this is just a suggestion and you can mix up the numbers if you so wish

  • 1 History
  • 2 Geography
  • 3 Demographics
  • 4 Politics
  • 5 Economy
  • 6 Culture
  • 7 Sports
  • 8 International rankings
  • 10 Notes
  • 11 References
  • 12 See also
  • 13 External links


(Deng 20:31, 4 May 2006 (UTC))

I'll try this instead (from Adelaide)

   * 1 History
   * 2 Geography
         o 2.1 Climate
         o 2.2 Urban Layout
   * 3 Governance
   * 4 Demographics
   * 5 Economy
   * 6 Education
   * 7 Culture
         o 7.1 Media
         o 7.2 Sport
   * 8 Infrastructure
         o 8.1 Health
         o 8.2 Transport
         o 8.3 Utilities
   * 9 Notes and references
   * 10 Sister cities
   * 11 See also
   * 12 Further reading
   * 13 External links

Fred-Chess 04:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That type of article layout is the Australian standard and the finest out of the layouts I've seen so far (that said, I might be a tad biased!). Canberra, Johannesburg and Mumbai are good examples of what to work up to. michael talk 05:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. I've done an initial rewrite, where I also removed such sections as "notable natives", and the gallery. All the removed material is at Malmö/Scrapbook. / Fred-Chess 09:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm actually impressed by the Australian city articles, which are impressingly easy to read through; the sections are well adjusted for length, etc. However, I find it slightly awkward that the history section extends into recent years. / Fred-Chess 09:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Fred why do you remove so much? Alot of the history, education and economy has been removed and many other things as well, dont remove things without replaceing them somewhere otherwise the information can be lost forever (Deng 10:34, 5 May 2006 (UTC))
If there is any particular information you want reinserted, let's discuss it... / Fred-Chess 11:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you should be the one to discuss when you want to remove things the way you did. I see no justification for what you did, so I reverted your edits. --Candide, or Optimism 13:41, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Everything you have deleted should be restored. Adding information is always good but removeing info is always bad. (Deng 13:36, 5 May 2006 (UTC))
Why do you think:
"Malmö has a variety of both government-owned schools and privately owned schools, both financed by the gouverment and both types are free for the students like all schools in Sweden. One of the most notable private schools is Bladins, with an impeccable reputation and huge waiting lists. Malmö Borgarskola is the largest high school in the city, also holding the renowned IB school, one of the best in the World, rivaling that of London, Paris and New York. Other schools with old traditions are Malmö S:t Petri skola [1] and Malmö Latinskola.".
Adhers to WP:NPOV and Wikipedia:Verifiability?
regarding the history section, it will be inserted into History of Malmö. Why do you think this:
Around 1290, construction on the St Petri Church began. It was the first Gothic church to be built within Sweden's present-day borders. Similar Brick Gothic churches can be found around the coastal regions of both Sweden and Germany (for example in Ystad, Landskrona and Rostock), and were inspired by the German sea merchants, the Hanseatic League, who played a major part in the economical growths around the Sound. Red bricks were used instead of stone, due to its scarcity in the area, and the color comes from the bedrock and the means the bricks were fabricated. In the ensuing century, Malmö and Copenhagen would rise in economic importance, and until this day this pattern has persisted. Despite Lund (and to a lesser degree Roskilde) being culturally of much greater importance, Malmö and Copenhagen have been centers for industrious and economic success.
is so important in an article about Malmö?
Why do you think:
Biking is a popular means of transport, since Malmö is a city virtually without altitude differences and since the snow season is usually brief. A continuous network of bike roads, in intersections often with right of precedence over for cars, has in recent decades been a priority beside the rather extensive public transport system.
A Swedish deregulation of taxicabs in the 1990s turned out particularly advantageous for Malmö. The supply of cabs is good, and most operate to low fixed fares, usually arriving within three–four minutes if requested by phone, which is the most convenient. For tourists, however, it's advisable to compare prices.
adhers to Wikipedia:Verifiability?
What parts of
Biking is a popular means of transport, since Malmö is a city virtually without altitude differences and since the snow season is usually brief. A continuous network of bike roads, in intersections often with right of precedence over for cars, has in recent decades been a priority beside the rather extensive public transport system. The tramlines (streetcars) were however abolished in 1973.
Adhers to Wikipedia:Verifiability?
/ Fred-Chess 14:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


It is all good info and above all it is correct I see no reason why it should be removed. (Deng 14:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC))
If you don't want to adhere to explicit policies there isn't much more I can say to you. / Fred-Chess 17:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Where does this policy say that we shouldn't mention the means of transport, the history behind the first Gothic church, and have a gallery of photos? Even CIA Worldbook mentions Sweden's public transport. --Candide, or Optimism 17:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Just show me a reliable reference verifying the information and I'm happy.
The paragraph about the church is however not even about Malmö.
Fred-Chess 19:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, I would guess than 90-percent of the article is unsourced. That doesn't mean that I can come and remove everything that is unsourced. The article would then become a stub. What do you mean that St. Petri is not about Malmö? It sure is. When it mentions its status in Sweden and the historical background behind the architecture, it underscores its significance. If you think something is controversial, let us know and we can discuss it. I agree that the article is in poor shape and badly written, but removing text will not improve it. --Candide, or Optimism 19:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.malmo.com/ -- Staden -- Historik -- lots of good and real info (Deng 19:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC))
The link you give is virtually worthless -- it lacks references itself, and is sketchy written (even worse than this article).
A direct reference to the material, please:
"Malmö is a city virtually without altitude differences" -- My comment: Compared to what?
"the snow season is usually brief" -- what is "brief"?
"A continuous network of bike roads, in intersections often with right of precedence over for cars, has in recent decades been a priority beside the rather extensive public transport system." -- reference please
Malmö has a variety of both government-owned schools and privately owned schools" -- all cities have this, what is the point?
One of the most notable private schools is Bladins, with an impeccable reputation and huge waiting lists. Malmö Borgarskola is the largest high school in the city, also holding the renowned IB school, one of the best in the World, rivaling that of London, Paris and New York. Other schools with old traditions are Malmö S:t Petri skola [1] and Malmö Latinskola."." -- reference please
The supply of cabs is good, and most operate to low fixed fares, usually arriving within three–four minutes if requested by phone, which is the most convenient." -- reference please
Similar Brick Gothic churches can be found around the coastal regions of both Sweden and Germany (for example in Ystad, Landskrona and Rostock), and were inspired by the German sea merchants, the Hanseatic League, who played a major part in the economical growths around the Sound. Red bricks were used instead of stone, due to its scarcity in the area, and the color comes from the bedrock and the means the bricks were fabricated." -- In my point of view, this is not about Malmö.
Anittas: Hmm, I would guess than 90-percent of the article is unsourced. That doesn't mean that I can come and remove everything that is unsourced. -- See Wikipedia:Verifiability: "Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed."
Fred-Chess 20:00, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


You have removed much much more then that. (Deng 09:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] My idea

Is it okay if I remove everything in the article that is not sourced? This question is for Fred to answer. Thx. --Candide, or Optimism 21:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

What is the problem? What don't you like? Let's talk about it -- I can find sources.
Fred-Chess 22:04, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
Fred you have deleted so much because it hasent been sourced, so what is the problem if Anittas deletes everything left that hasent been sourced. Also you have deleted things that have been sourced that you didnt like. (Deng 09:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC))
Are you making serious claims, or just some random spiteful remarks? I am asking for sources for the material above, and you have not provided it. I am asking about the relevance of specific sections above, but you have not commented on it. If you want to question the material I have written, I suggest you do as I did above, and you'll see that it -- unlike you -- will provide answers. / Fred-Chess 10:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, we can use Fox News as a source. Whether you think it's accurate or not is your own POV. --Candide, or Optimism 13:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You have deleted and twiseted information to such an extent that 50% of the article has changed or been deleted and you want us to explain why removeing half an article is bad. If you cant understand that on your own that there is now way anyone can explain it to you. What I am doing is adding information that you have added but unlike you I do not delete things. Sourced or not they are correct and who ever added them most likely did so because they had read it in a news paper that day or seen it on tv. (Deng 17:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC))


Deleteing sentances as this:
The disunity between the burghers of Lund and Malmö has remained a fundamental characteristic, the former relying on tradition the latter on modernity and adaption. Malmö was, for instance, a leading hanseatic town during the decades of the Hansa's dominance in the region, and leading the process of Protestant Reformation in Denmark of the 1530s. After the secession to Sweden, in 1658, Malmö suffered an economic decline due to poor harbour facilities and loss of trading privileges that were granted under the Danish Crown. By 1730, its population had dwindled to 282. In 1775, a new harbour was constructed, but Malmö's economic status remained poor until the later part of 19th century and the introduction of the railroad.
He removed that info? What the fuck! I added that info and I used Encyclopedia Britannica Online as a source! Fred, I think you should back off. You may be a Swede, but you have no right to act the way you did. --Candide, or Optimism 18:41, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I more or less rewrote it. Please see [6], scroll down to history section. / Fred-Chess 19:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
And this ;
The first fortification was erected at the site of Skeppsbron (“Ship bridge”) and Malmö Central Station, first hinted at in unfriendly diplomatic correspondence between the king and the archbishop in March 1256, but in 1434 Malmö's growth gave reason to the erection of a new citadel at the beach south of the town. The new fortress, Malmöhus, was completed in the mid-16th century and continued to play an essential role after the secession to Sweden — now as a part of the defense system against the Danes. During 1828–1914 the building was re-used as a prison, and since the 1930s it houses Malmö museum.
Which I shortened into In 1434 Malmö's growth gave reason to the construction of a new citadel at the beach south of the town. This fortress, known today as Malmöhus, did not get its current appearance until the mid-16th century. Several other fortifications were constructed, making Malmö Sweden's most fortified city, but only Malmöhus remains.". I see no problem there. The article is about Malmö, not Malmöhus. / Fred-Chess 19:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Serves no purpose except if you want people to know less which is not the point of wiki. The whole point of wiki is to know more NOT know less. (Deng 17:57, 7 May 2006 (UTC))


Now what I have done is keep everything from the old version and add everything that you have added so this version contains both of everything in the old article plus everything that you have added. There is no need to delete everything left and right! (Deng 18:13, 7 May 2006 (UTC))
Once again you fail to understand that excessive information about marginal topics should be inserted into articles of their own, articles such as History of Malmö, or Malmöhus. / Fred-Chess 19:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)


No, it is you who dosent understand that deleteing things left and right is wrong, you delete it WITHOUT replaceing it ANYWHERE. You dont replace it in topic "of their own" you just delete it (Deng 12:09, 8 May 2006 (UTC))
You removed much of my material, including three images (two in the section "history") and the section about media. You also told me earlier to outline the sections according to a scheme you provided, which I did. Yet, you insist that sections "Notable people" and "gallery" remains, despite not contirbuting significantly to the article. So why do you now insist to keep these sections? Please answer that question.
I didn't think you would care so much about the history of the Saint Petri Church (such a short paragraph could easily be expanded into an article of its own). If you want it kept, I will be glad to move it into apropriate sub-article. But please say so, so I don't insert it, and you revert the article anyways.
Fred-Chess 18:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


You have deleted so much and it is hard to compare the version but as far as I could see I added everything you added but if I missed something then just add the part dont go back and delete everything (Deng 19:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC))
You still haven't answered why you want the sections "Gallery" and "Notable natives" present in article, when you above said they shouldn't be included. Which is it? / Fred-Chess 19:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


I have answered you deleted so much and twisted so much that it is impossible to see what you deleted and what you added, I tried to add everything you hade added but I must have missed something. But the fact remain my version contains much more information then what you have done.

[edit] GA nomination -

opening para appears appealing? doesnt read well Gnangarra

Nah, I know there are several improvements needed before the article reaches the requirements. I had hoped they would be fixed, but they haven't been. / Fred-Chess 13:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
  • History condense there is already a main article
  • A night line by ferry to Berlin has been in traffic since 1909. suggest change traffic to service/operation
  • Demographics heading needs to be on left either reposition images or use <br clear=all>
  • Sydsvenskan -- newspaper: 1,025 employees (and many underpayed interns...) NPOV underpayed or should it be unpayed
  • Two references one in history and one in architecture that should be moved to reference section.

sorry I failed this article there are too many concerns to be fixed quickly, If you would like me to review the article again just ask. Gnangarra 13:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you none the less for taking your time with it. / Fred-Chess 13:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

At present, the article talks about the largest immigration group and the top five include the former Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. As B-H was a part of Yugoslavia, that should probably be fixed. JdeJ 09:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. Ullner 10:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I was just wondering if the Bosnians might have been included in the original number for the former Yugoslavia as well?
It hadn't. I've updated the figures, and added Bosnia-Herzegovina. This because Yugoslavia refer to the amount of people immigrating when Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia etc weren't independent nations. I think the removal of 'Former' remove the confusion. Ullner 21:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim population / social problems

The article currently mentions (briefly) the city's foreign-born population but does not mention its Muslim population or social tensions related to that population's integration (or lack thereof) into Swedish society. There must be unbiased information out there on this topic that can be added; it shouldn't be glossed over entirely. Funnyhat 00:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

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