Talk:Maize

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[edit] Pellagra Citation Needed?

When maize was first introduced outside of the Americas it was typically welcomed enthusiastically by farmers everywhere for its productivity. However, a widespread problem of malnutrition soon arose wherever maize was introduced. This was a mystery since these types of malnutrition were not seen among the indigenous Americans under normal circumstances.^{[citation needed]}

Commenting on the ^{[citation needed]} tag here: Are you asking us to prove that indigenous Americans did not suffer a specific form of malnutrition? Ancient societies are not generally known for writing down every ailment that they did not suffer from. Perhaps the burden of proof should be on the person who asserts that the indigenous Americans DID suffer malnutrition, as this is much more likely to be documented.

There is no need to prove whether indigenous Americans of the past suffered from a form of malnutrition or not as there are plenty of indigenous peoples in the Americas today who eat very traditional diets similar to those of 500 years ago. Do these folks suffer from pellagra is probably available in the medical or public health literature? Pellagra is one of the pet nutritional deficiency diseases and, as such, has been studied extensively. KP Botany 22:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarity of the subject

Maybe I'm just a silly-silly, but the first bit of the article that establishes that "maize" is referred to as corn in America but possibly not in other cultures sets a confusing precedent for the whole rest of the article. I may be mistaken, but the author(s) never says whether this particular article is about "corn" or something else. swaly 07:06, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zea or Zea Mays?

The sidebar contains several Zea genus, but the main article is highly focused on Zea Mays, especially Zea Mays subsp. mays. Think we need a seperate page for Zea? Mackerm 17:21, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should this article provide information about corn is grown now rather than relying on an article that is over 100 years old?

You ripped me off! Where's my Radio?

[edit] In what country?

"The corn will ripen in October or early November;" in what country? should this be replaced with seasons instead? - --Cyprus2k1 22:26, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Mate. Dfrg.msc 07:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] unrelated sentence??

I removed this sentence because it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the article:

In 1940, Barbara McClintock received the Nobel Prize in Medicine for discovery of transposons while studying maize.

ike9898 15:31, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

It is an article about maize and someone got a Nobel Prize for studying maize. I don't see how it is unrelated. Rmhermen 22:20, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

In Ontario corn is used exclusivley, outside of an academic environment, see the Ontario Corn Producers' Association. I do not feel that the BBC can be used as a proper source in this regards since this crop is not a staple in the UK. Rather, in areas where it is a staple it is called corn. I grew up on a cash crop farm. Farmers do not use the term maize. People do not go into the grocery store to buy maize. Road side stands do not sell maize.

In an antropological context, however, maize is used exclusivley. In this discipline the crop in discussion is usually not the modern variant and, because the development of maize is of great importance in central and North American archaeology, the distinction is necessary. So, academics use the term maize while the common vernacular is corn.

[edit] Maize?

I've never heard anyone call this maize? It sounds made up. - Jerryseinfeld 22:30, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Are you trolling? The second para gives a fairly good explanation of the different names used globally for this crop. The common name in America is corn, but maize is the Spanish name used in much of the rest of the world. External validation can be found at the BBC, any number of dictionaries or some 3 million other web references on Google. -- Solipsist 23:14, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't see how an article writting by the BBC, for UK audiences who use maize instead of corn provides external validation when the US, Canada and Australia all refer to it as corn, and using the other link provided returns 2 more entries for corn than maize.Cfpresley

You've named 3 countries... Out of over two hundred in the world. Maize is a very common term. In fact, some native americans called it maize, and they're the ones that gave it to your three countries in the first place. Joey 06:03, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It would seem more appropriate to have the title of this article as 'Corn.' The reason being that it really doesn't matter what you call it in another language, because this is an article on en.wikipedia.com, EN meaning English. In English speaking countries it is referred to as corn, in the nation that produces more of it than any other it is refered to as corn, and the 'Maize' page belongs on the spanish language version of wikipedia. --Fieldinj 15:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not the number of tonnes that the US produces that matters in naming the crop, it's the number of consumers around the world that matters; you may have know it as corn all your life, but the rest of the world calls it maize - the term is even adopted as a legitimate English noun and so the topic title is right for this English section of wikipedia.

I personally think the article shouldn't be named 'maize', but on the other hand, I want to point out that anyone who has never heard of the word 'maize' is severely retarded and shouldn't be allowed to live anymore. I say this not to be cruel, but to make it clear that Americans DO know what maize is.--Stevekl 01:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA and be civil. Edison 16:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In the article you mention that in Southern Africa maize is known as "mealies". I live in Namibia, Southern Africa and corrected the spelling. Here maize is known as "mielies" and not "mealies". The term come from Afrikaans (Kitchen Dutch) which was formed by the various European cultures that settled in Southern Africa. User: Piet Retief. 16:20, 10 July 2006.

[edit] Propagation

Maize cannot self seed, right? It depends upon cultivation for seed dispersal. This should probably be mentioned. Perhaps along with domestication history of maize in the first paragraph.

[edit] Baby Corn

Can somebody add some information (or write a new article) about baby corn please? I love that weird little freak of nature and would love to know more about it and its relation to regular corn.

[from the IP who started the stub this week --Jerzy (t) 20:54, 2005 Jan 6 (UTC)]

[edit] Tallest corn

the internet is an excellent source for fake information from lazy humans. the tallest stalk of maize that was ever grown was probably the "31'-even" stalk that was grown outside washington, iowa in 1946. the day that it was measured, the washington newspaper reported this precise height. look it up for yourself. end the circle of august ignorance.

According to this site "Don Radda of Washington grew the world's tallest corn stalk in 1946; it was thirty-one feet and three inches high." -- WormRunner | Talk 21:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As interesting as this factoid is, does it really belong in an encyclopedia article?--nixie 22:01, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I put that in talk because the latest edit of the article was to remove a reference to 30 foot tall corn because User:Rmhermen could not find any source for it. I could have just reverted the article, but felt that putting it in talk first was more politic. -- WormRunner | Talk 22:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology

I'm not sure I agree with all of the recent changes you made to the article. I thought the terminology section was informative and important but you removed it. Liblamb 23:15, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I removed that section mostly in the spirit of "Wikipedia is not a dictionary", so that the article maize should be about the thing maize, rather than the word "maize". Furthermore, most of that text wasn't even about the word "maize", but about the word "corn", and redundant with text from the article corn (which unfortunately is also mostly about the word, but with perhaps more justification, because it is trying to be a disambiguation page).

Clarification of terminology is crucial when it is an aid to navigation or understanding, but the paragraph in question was not that. Language is a thing in the world, and can be encyclopedic, but that's why there are articles like American and British English differences.

— Pekinensis 00:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree also and returned it. It is important to explain what we are talking about before we go into details. Rmhermen 02:23, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Why is it necessary to say that "corn" means "oats" in Scotland in order to talk about maize? — Pekinensis

I am beginning to see Pekinensis' point and have changed the article to acknowledge the variation in terms. Yet, I tried not to duplicate what the corn article says. Liblamb 23:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Informally known as corn

When reverting my insertion of the word "informally" into the first sentence, Bkonrad wrote:

I dunno about Canada or Australia but it is almost exlusively known as corn in the U.S., which merits more than an "informally known as")

I won't put it back, but I believe that in technical usage in the US, the plant is generally called maize. For example, a google search for "maize genome" turns up around 20,000 hits, most of which seem to be from US research institutions such as the Maize Genetics/Genomics Database hosted by the University of Missouri, compared to around 3,500 for "corn genome", many of which seem to be from the popular press. Google also believes that the word "maize" appears 55,000 times on US government web pages, so I disagree with the phrase "almost exclusively". I can believe that it is almost exclusively known as corn at the market and at the dinner table, but that is why I used the word "informally". Perhaps a better wording would have been "in non-technical usage", but that puts even more undue emphasis on the question. If it were my article, it would read "Maize, often called corn,", and leave the regional usage trivia out altogether.

— Pekinensis 02:34, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In common usage in the U.S., I suspect that most people would not readily recognize the term "maize". And among those who did know, many would see it as somewhat exotic or even pretentious. I've no problem with the current "often called" phrasing, but if it is accurate, I think the description of regional variations is worth including, though perhaps it doesn't need to figure so prominently as the second paragraph. older≠wiser 02:14, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

This does not appear to be an active issue at this point, but the current phrasing ("It is called corn in the United States, Canada, and Australia") is correct, at least as far as the United States is concerned. Other than possibly in purely technical usage, "maize" is not used to refer to "corn" in the United States. When I was a child, we used the term "maize" to refer to what was also called "Indian corn," which is the decorative, multi-colored corn used for Halloween decorations. Since Wikipedia is not a U.S.-only encyclopedia, however, it is appropriate to use the more international term "maize" in this article.

-- Bob (Bob99)

[edit] Contradiction

The "Maize" article states that "Worldwide production was over 600 million metric tons in 2003, just slightly more than rice or wheat."

The "Sweet Corn" article states that "Maize is the third most grown cereal crop in the world after rice and wheat."

I'm not sure which is correct, (or if 2003 is the most recent year for which data is available) but the articles should agree on which crop is grown in greater abundance. [[User:asdfa|asdfa] 16:52, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Sweet corn is wrong. The most recent numbers are from 2004, million metric tons: Maize 721, wheat 627, rice 605 [1] Rmhermen 18:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Indian corn

The species as a whole is called "corn", plain and simple, IMHO as a native speaker of North American English from the midwestern corn belt (though not a farmer). "Indian corn" is used colloqially and loosely to refer to multicolored varieties only. If others have/know of other linguistic traditions for the use of the term Indian corn, it may warrant a short paragraph in the article. However, good, concise, to-the-point introductory paragraphs should not be loaded down with tortuous sentences trying to nuance things too much. -- Kbh3rd 17:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There are several misconceptions here. First, "corn" was an English word that referred to hard, small particles, and was generically applied to grains. The use of the word corn in the King James Version of the Bible, for instance refers only to grains. When English colonist came to America they called maize "Indian's corn" because it was the Indian's grain. As maize eventually spread across the globe, Indian's corn became shortened to corn. It is true that Indian's corn is now used to refer to more colorful corn, but this was not always the case. NoraBG 02:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Limited scope

User:Ezeu has complained that this article is too focused on the U.S.

I don't beleive that the article is as biased as he claims but the uses of corn section could be expanded to include other countries. Are there places where corn is the dominant food grain? Are there unmentioned significant culinary tradition? Are there unmentioned places where corn plays a significant cultural/ritual/traditional role? Rmhermen 16:13, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes. See Corn_meal. --Ezeu 17:10, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Edit by 68.47.125.142

Ó:nenhste Mohawk for corn —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.47.125.142 (talk • contribs) 06:35, 11 January 2006.

[edit] domestication and alkali treatment

Wasn't alkali treatment important in the domestication of Maize ? Why was it necessary, and is it still useful today beyond making Homney ?

[edit] Confusing

I've visited this article several times, and it is still rather disappointing. There are large areas of North American POV, with little concession to Latin American or world perspectives. Why does the section on 'Uses for maize' start with modern uses of 'corn' in the United States rather than its use as a traditional staple food source in Latin America. Why is it spending so much time mixing up terms by discussing 'corn' rather than 'maize'. Why is there no discussion or even redirect for blue corn, which AFIK is a fairy common term in New Mexico and other latin influenced states of the US. We should be able to do better and be more internally consistent and encyclopedic. -- Solipsist 21:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh and there is no explanation of what an 'ear' is, nor any link to Ear (botany). Simiarly, no explanation of what a cob is, although the disambig for cob links here. -- Solipsist 21:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Ear (botany) is a poor sub-stub that has existed for 6 days so it is hardly surprising that there is no link. The "Origin" section has a paragraph on the spread of corn in the Americas. I do not see large sections of North American POV. I do see a concentration on the majority production and uses. I have to agree that the "Uses" section is poorly organized but feel I have to point out that while corn/maize is a staple in much of Africa and we can describe that better here, worldwide, human consumption is the minority use of this grain. Blue corn is not common anywhere. It is one of hundreds, perhaps thousands of specialty varieties. Corn is called maize in larger portions of the English speaking world, so we are not "mixing up terms". We are using the correct term in both cases. Rmhermen 00:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Where is the proof for the claim that Maize is used in more places than corn?Cfpresley

http://teejer.net/chat/lofiversion/index.php/t10446.html Joey 06:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC) As my link states, 'corn' refers to only the most common cereal grain in a region. In the US, where you happen to be, it happens to refer to maize. The rest of the world says 'corn' means something different, depending on what they eat the most. This species is called 'maize' except colloquially. Joey 06:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, for the record, I think this article has improved quite a bit in the last six months. Things like the table of 'Top Ten Maize Producers' and tidying up of the Origins section has helped significantly. -- Solipsist 11:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] wikification of corn

It seems that everything covered in the dab for corn is covered in this article. Youngamerican 20:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

No mention of wheat here. The corn page also used to have more content. I may have to restore some. Rmhermen 21:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with wikification if corn was expanded a bit.Youngamerican 21:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] use/uses

say "use" in ...furnaces have been developed which uses maize...

Changes 2/11/06:

It is maize grain, not seed, that is converted to ethanol. This is a discussion of the uses of corn as a grain, not of its botany. Seed is what one plants, by definition, in agriculture.
It is incorrect to write "ethanol is a form of alcohol". That is like writing "H2O is a form of water". Ethanol is the predominant chemical constituent of grain alcohol.
Switch grass may be of interest as an alternative engergy source, but does not belong in the discussion of maize.
Furnaces that burn maize grain are also not directly of interest here. They also do not have any significant impact on the maize economy.
I suggest that these topics be treated elsewhere, as they are of interest to many people. --Zeamays 14:05, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

The repeated change to refer only to high fructose corn syrup is needless and misleading. There are other kinds of corn syrup. It is not "incorrect to write 'ethanol is a form of alcohol'". Ethanol is only one of hundreds of kinds of alcohol. The mention of corn furnaces here is at least as valuable as a unique use as the mention of bourbon. The mention of alternatives to corn sourced ethanol is valid as it impacts the market for maize. Seed is a biological description, not "what one plants, by definition, in agriculture" (for instance, onion growers and potato growers do not plant seeds to produce market crops) Grain refers specifically to seeds of family Poaceae. Using either grain or seed is possible - they refer to the same thing. Quickly dated U.S.-centric material is not appropriate for the article lead Rmhermen 16:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I largely agree with Rmhermen. I want to point out, though, that a grass grain is a fruit, not a seed (although the pericarp is but a thin layer adhering to the seed coat). Inasmuch as the pericarp is not removed when maize is fermented (nor is it removed in any other commercial use except the production of hominy, where the seed coat is removed as well), technically speaking it is the grain that is fermented.--Curtis Clark 17:34, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Although Rmhermen is correct that there are other corn syrups, it is the high fructose syrup that is sweet. The common corn syrup is just a hydrolyzate of corn starch and is primarily glucose. It is not sweet.
Yes, ethanol is one specific alcohol, but it is not a 'form of alcohol'. The other alcohols are distinct chemical compounds, not different forms of the same thing. My version of the text is less misleading.
The use of corn furnaces is rare and impractical. It is much more energy-efficient to burn the crop waste than the valuable gain.
This section is not a biological (I used botanical) description. Grain is much more apt a description in the context of the uses of an agricultural commodity than seed, which implies what is planted.
The definition of grain is the fruit of any cereal, not just the Poaceae, although farmers often refer to other crops in this way.
The best way to understand the impact of genetic engineering on agriculture is to cite the preponderance of the US crop, for which statistics are readily available. --Zeamays 18:58, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

This smells of an edit war to me; I'll comment here and let you two duke it out in the article. To say that glucose is "not sweet" is POV. Maize is used to produce both glucose syrup and high-fructose syrup; leaving out the former is misleading. "...grain alcohol, or ethanol" is appropriate for this section: it disambiguates the alcohol and makes the connection to grains, the fruits of grasses. I agree about corn furnaces. Grain is a more apt description botanically, as well, which was my point. The part on genetic engineering could combine your sentences to read: "Maize is one of the first foods for which genetically modified varieties make up a significant proportion of the total harvest. Over half of the corn acreage planted in the United States has been genetically modified using biotechnology to express agronomic traits desired by farmers."--Curtis Clark 19:28, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

My latest edit should assuage some of Curtis Clark's concerns, and (I hope) make it more palatable to Rmhermen also.--Zeamays 18:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chicha

I removed the following because there is already an article about chicha, to which it should probably be incorporated:

Sweet Chicha, which is maize flour and honey fermented in earthen pots, drunk in "totumas", is still made to this day since ancient times when it was considered sacred. Since colonial times, chicha culture has suffered discrimination, prohibition and rejection by church and goverment parties, up to this day, because it is a strong bond to native culture and rural unity. In some places it is still used everyday, it was traditionally used in native religious and spiritual celebrations. In some places of central america like Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and south america like Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Panama and Colombia it is still used as a refreshing alcoholic beverage as well as a small meal, but the name and preparation of this fermented drink varies by location. Maize chicha is drunk in large quantities at celebrations, which usually are native cultural events or rural festivals, sometimes about both, in these times, chicha is drunk all the time, and many times people drink continously until very drunk, in some cases, "finally" throwing up to "open up space" to continue drinking. Some members of society, usually in groups, use various etheogens like mushrooms, mixed with the drink, to have visions and revelations. Those who have experienced it, say it is like a "spiritual voyage", because of the personal revelation experiences. These practices go back to Amerindian roots. Chicha is not easy to make, it becomes sour if not consumed in the right moment, a type of vinegar is prepared this way.

--Curtis Clark 03:53, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to pronounce maize?

Please mention how to pronounce it, even if we are supposed to dig elsewhere for the answer.

I pronounce it just like maze. Is there another way? Wikitionary gives IPA: /meɪz/

SAMPA: /meIz/ Rmhermen 15:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the spanish word for corn is Maize. Mah-eez. Cfpresley

Creo que no–es "maíz".--Curtis Clark 23:49, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

My bad, it's been over 10 years since I took spanish, sorry if I added an e at the end. Same thing though. The only time I every hear corn referred to as maize was when "primitive" Indian corn was talked about, around Thanksgiving. That, and Crayola used to have a Crayon color named maize IIRC. Cfpresley

[edit] Why isn't this called CORN?

The above graph is taken from English_language, indicating that the majority of english speakers speak American english. Furthermore, according to the Corn & Maize article, The Canadians and Australians also call it corn. Shouldn't this mean that only a small minority of English speakers refer to it by Maize?

I propose that this article and its contents be redirected to corn.

The sun HAS set on the British Empire, it's time now to move on to more international dialects.

--Capsela 21:54, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

If I may summarise the below to save people the difficulty of reading through the fights, there is a good reason why Maize is not the same as Corn, and thus why they're not the same entry in the Wiki: Maize, while a word of meso-American origins, appears to generally define all the types of Maize plants. Corn is a cereal grain, that is, the processed, ground-up stuff, and cereals include wheat, maize, millet, sorghum, barley, rye and oats. Corn is, however, a widely used word to mean the maize plant.--Mike 13:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I am a speaker of American English, I somewhat disagree, on the basis of ambiguation. Maize only has one meaning; corn has many, and making it the article name would require a pointer to the dab page at the top. I also suspect that the graph refers to birth speakers; there ar lots of English speakers in south Asia and Africa who probably call it maize.--Curtis Clark 23:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The only disambiguation to corn that falls within the same context is used only in commonwealth contries, with the exception of Canada and Australia. While that graph does refer to native speakers only, I guess that data referring to all speakers of English by variant would be needed to put the final nail in the coffin. No one is going to confuse corn that you eat for the laymans term for a callus on the phalanges, but maize has it's own disambiguation, The American Heritage Dictionary gives the corn definition, in addition to the color definition. Cfpresley

I think it's basically immaterial what it's called (I think it would be amusing to call it "corn" and use Canadian spellings, so that color would be spelt colour), but I don't imagine that the figures for all speakers of English will put nails in any coffins--I suspect there are more English-speakers in Asia that North America and Australia combined.--Curtis Clark 22:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how relevant that is. The vast majority of them aren't first language English, who I think are the main targets of an English language encyclopedia (remember this is EN.wikipedia.org). If 1/2 billion Chinese people learned the word "hand" but used it to mean foot, should we redirect hand to foot because they outvote native English speakers? 67.70.41.10 09:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

But isn't that the point, here, 67.70.41.10? That's what happened to the word "corn", the meaning of which I have listed above, but that now appears to simply mean "that stuff that Maize is also one of". --Mike 13:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Even in dialects where it is called corn, the term maize is also in use. So the statistics really fall apart. Leave it as it is. Although we all need to keep making sure to clear out the incorrect links to the corn article. Rmhermen 16:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

But in those dialects maize generally has a very different meaning than corn, or at least some very specific connotations. Play word association with an American or Canadian and you'll get maize=indian corn, maize=colo(u)red corn, or something similar. Maybe biogeneticists call the cereal maize, but to your average joe-on-the-street (who is an encyclopedia targeting, after all?) IT'S CORN. This is all related to a fundamental problem that wikipedia needs to address as a whole but will probably be eternally relegated to narrow discussions like this. You're imposing a taxonomy that's unnatural to the majority. It might be correct, it might not be. I ran into the same thing the other day while looking up race condition, which for some unfathomable reason redirects to race hazard. A bit of experience or a quick google of the two terms (don't forget to surround them with quotes) will tell you which is the more widespread term by a large factor. 67.70.41.10 09:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't get us anywhere - Play word association with an Englishman and you will get corn = wheat, or barley, etc. This is a problem with writing for an international audience that we are well aware of and our policies have been developed over the last 5 years, not "relegated to narrow discussions" and still needing to be solved. Rmhermen 14:18, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

So the Englishman is right? The whole point of this section of the discussion is that the people for whom maize=corn greatly outnumber the others.

No, the point is NOT who is right, dangit! It's that this encyclopedia should be culture independent! It should, of course, acknowledge that "corn" means something in the US, but it should also note the other English language meanings.

You are wrong. Just because someone speaks 'American English' doesn't mean they use the colloqualism 'corn' in the same way YOU do. The graph above isn't an example of 'what corn means where' - you are misinterpreting it in a misleading way. I will try to break it down for you: 'corn' is an -American- colloquialism for maize (based on the definition of the word 'corn', which means the most prominent cereal grain in a region). Just because it is an American colloquialism doesn't mean it is a common and intrinsic part of 'American English' across the world. Until you can prove that (which isn't proveable, because it's not true) then you're out of gas. Joey 15:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

That simply isn't true - corn is the word for Zea mays in American English and Canadian English and Australian English. And maize is also a word meaning the same thing in those dialects, although less commonly used and then mainly in technical contexts. Corn is not "the most prominent cereal grain in a region". In British English it just refered to grains in general - wheat, barley, oats, etc. and then later by extension, maize. Corn for maize is not a colloquialism because it is used in formal speech and so is maize. The point however is that this title for this article is correct for most English-speaking people - who use the term either exclusively or occasional to mean Zea mays. Rmhermen 17:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

http://teejer.net/chat/lofiversion/index.php/t10446.html - Oops! It seems we largely agree on the correct placement of this article. But just FYI, you can have this link anyway. It traces the word origins, and you'll find that it does, in fact, colloqiually refer to the local dominant grain crop. Joey 06:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice that there were two opposing opinions on that page? Rmhermen 17:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Umm, I wasn't aware that the study of word origins requires a 'second opinion'. Do dictionaries offer 'second opinions?' Some things are grounded in hard fact, whether people want to admit it or not. Joey 15:47, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

No I am saying that you pointed to someone's opinion - and one that is opposed by another writer on the very same page. Rmhermen 16:35, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's just 'somebody's opinion' - and I don't think some anonymous and confused commenter on the article makes for an adequate opposing viewpoint. In fact, this definition of corn (as the most predominant cereal crop in a region) is repeated in the very article corn at Wikipedia, which I haven't touched. But I think you've long been arguing this just for the sake of the argument, so I'll leave it alone now. Joey 09:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Mazola is a leading brand of corn oil in the Americas, and the name, of course, derives from maize. There was even an advertising campaign in the USA for Mazola products with the catchphrase "The Great Taste of Maize". If the average Joe doesn't understand the word maize, let Wiki educate him. Zzorse 15:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! The same thing applies to Aluminum. It was a brand name in the US back in the 1930s. I have no issue that there ought to be an entry for "aluminum" in the Wiki, but it should also have a link to "Aluminium" to illuminate the reader.

If this Wiki is ever to be taken particularly seriously as a font of knowledge, it must not succumb to merely rote repeating of whatever cultural language rules on the day. Of course, we must acknowledge that Corn and Maize appear interchangeable words these days, but we should also be clear that there is differing meanings behind the words, however overturned by popular use. Otherwise we should submit that wikipedia.com be renamed slang.com.--Mike 13:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

First you should note that you are trying to restart an argument that ended months ago. This page is not in danger of being moved. Second, your derivation of aluminum is incorrect (See [2]) as is your calling corn a slang word. It isn't. Rmhermen 22:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Corned-beef anyone???? Corn is an English word with multiple meanings in dictionaries on either side of the Atlantic. The expression Indian corn originally arose in America as a label for the grain used by the indigenous inhabitants, who were once were called Indians. For anyone approaching the problem from a scientific or horticultural perspective the word used is maize, which corresponds to the species name as well as the name used in the current region of MesoAmerica, where maize was domesticated and cultivated for the past 9000 years. Corn is an ambiguous term, while maize provides a more precise or unambiguous term. NoraBG 02:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

How about a vote? I vote for Corn.Edison 16:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I vote that everyone stops arguing about word usage before it drives someone insane. :) Davidjk ^(msg+edits) 19:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The term 'corn' is not an "American- colloquialism". There is no other term in common usage in the US and Canada for the crop. You may *think* it is colloquial, but the dictionaries I consulted did not. Using the term "maize" for corn is not an alternative that would work in everyday life. The only context I have heard 'maize' used in are "Maize Maze" where it is alliterative, a 20 year old Mazola commercial (note, not 'Maizola') and in reference to decorative Indian Corn.

maize /meɪz/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[meyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. (chiefly in British and technical usage) corn1 (def. 1). 2. a pale yellow resembling the color of corn. [Origin: 1545–55; < Sp maíz < Hispaniolan Taino mahís] Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source maize (mz) Pronunciation Key Audio pronunciation of "maize" [P] n.

  1. See corn1.
  2. A light yellow to moderate orange yellow.

When it says "maize- see corn" you've got the wrong term....

I can appreciate that there is ambiguity because of a continued traditional use of the term 'corn' in the UK, but terming this article "Maize" makes as much sense as filing an article on American Football under "Gridiron" -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.110.183 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 7 November 2006.

[edit] Graph is misleading

http://teejer.net/chat/lofiversion/index.php/t10446.html Corn just means whatever cereal grain is the most common in a region. In the US and Canada, it is maize. In the UK, it is wheat. Elsewhere it is different. This species is rightly called 'maize' and corn is a colloquialism. Joey 06:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Well...

Let me ask a few questions, the answers may help put this in perspective: In the U.K. you call wheat corn, but if I said "wheat" to a brit, wouldn't you still know what I was talking about? If I said "maize", a significant number of Americans, I'm guessing over 60%, would think I was talking about a maze. If I clarified "the food", I think about 30% - and higher for children under 14 - would have no fucking clue what I was talking about, even if I spelled it. Also, do you alter other names and phrases that would include "corn" in the U.S.? Popmaize? Candy maize? Maizehole? Maizey?

On a separate note... there must be a tasteful way to mention in the article that whole corn kernels are famous/infamous for passing through the digestive system intact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.218.198.104 (talk • contribs) 12 April 2006.

Then this wiki article serves as a public health and safety service as well. People who think maze is food need to be educated. --Ezeu 12:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

edited to say 'most English speaking people,' hopefully this will be acceptable to both sides in this corn vs maize debate. If not, then perhaps you could indicate that it is known as corn to most people who speak English as their first language.--Fieldinj 15:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I removed this as unnecessary as we already explain who calls it what where in more detail. Rmhermen 16:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plastic

It should be noted somewhere in the article about the use of corn materials to make biodegradable plastic, which I know of one bottled water company that does so. Someone should do a little research and add it under maize uses.

[edit] "corrected for solar variations"

This phrase is really not clear in context -- does it have to do with carbon dating? AnonMoos 08:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. carbon dating#calibration Rmhermen 04:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yield

I came here looking for info and found the article rather lacking. In "Cultivation" there should be discussion of yield. [3] shows for Indiana, stable yield of 30 to 40 bushels per acre from the 1860's until the 1930's, then increasing yield up to an average of about 150 bushels/acre, due perhaps to irrigation, hybrids, fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides. At [4] yields up to 351 bushels/acre are reported, perhaps where winning a prize is more important than maximizing return on investment. How does this compare to other countries? What chemicals are applied at what stage of growth, and what are the societal implications as well as costs? What are the implications and controversies of genetically modified corn? How have corn prices varied relative to the cost of production? Thanks. Edison 17:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calling BS on 'Maize'

Ok, I am calling BS on this Maize business. I guess we are supposed to believe that everyone in the world is running around having maize-on-the-cob and saying "oh dear, I have spilled some corns of barley on the floor!".

However google does not agree: Corn: 73,200,000 hits. Maize: 13,400,000

Where all these people who supposedly refer to zea mays as 'maize'??

Not on the recipies section on foodtv http://web.foodnetwork.com/food/web/searchResults?searchType=Recipe&searchString=corn&site=food&gosearch=Search

which has  "Corn": 1971 recipes
           "Maize:  6 recipes

Hmmm maybe in the UK:

     http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/
            "Maize": 6 recipes
             "Corn": 112 recipes

      http://www.uktvfood.co.uk/
             "Corn": 125 recipes
             "Maize": 1 recipe

      http://www.vegsoc.org/cordonvert/recipes/   UK vegitarian soceity
             "Corn": 112
             "Maize": 10 (and none appear to be recipes)

How about google:

            "maize recipe": 285,000
            "corn recipe": 2,560,000

             "maize recipe site:.co.uk" : 2,340
             corn recipe -peppercorn, -corned site:.co.uk: 7,170

Even that that supposed bastion of we-dont-know-what-corn-is-but-we-have-heard-of-maize, the UK, corn seems to be the dominant term.

I dont care if your sainted Welsh mother used the term 'corn' to refer to sorghum, that time is past and she would be hard pressed to make herself understood for much longer in Albion.

"Corn" *is* the predominate term; it *is not* a colliquialism, and this article ought to be changed.

No maize really is more common - including in scientific circles in North America (see the USDA's Maize Genome Database, for instance. Rmhermen 23:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

At this point it is obvious that "corn" is the more common term, so there is no "including" about it. So a genome site uses maize. What about

  http://www.iowacorn.org/
  http://www.ncga.com/
  http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/

- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.110.183 (talk • contribs) 02:50, 8 November 2006.

And with many of those recipe searches, you are probably getting confused with sweetcorn. As has been discussed here several times, the trouble with the word 'corn' is that it is very imprecise and can refer to many different things depending on context. -- Solipsist 04:31, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Those links are U.S. farmer's groups, not scientists who mostly but not exclusively use maize. Rmhermen 04:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I dont think I am 'getting confused' at all:

   http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/database/cornandcrabmeatsoup_73639.shtml
   Corn and crabmeat soup
   Ingredients
   2 tbsp oil
   2 spring onions, chopped
   2 cloves garlic, chopped
   corn from 1 corn-cob, removed and toasted
   290ml/½ pint chicken stock
   55g/2oz tinned crabmeat
   salt and freshly ground black pepper
   drizzle of sesame oil

   Method
   1. Heat the oil in a pan and fry the spring onions and garlic for two minutes.
   2. Add the corn and chicken stock and cook for another 3-5 minutes.
   3. Stir through the crabmeat and season with salt and pepper.
   4. Drizzle with sesame oil and serve.

Look there is a British recipe that uses "corn" without qualification. If the term is so "very imprecise" why did the BBC use it without qualification? And where are the people writting in to say "I made this recipe and it came out very grainy and there was a strong taste of uncooked flour".

Face it- "corn" is not "very imprecise", people know exactly what the term means.

When I go to Tesco's on-line grocery site it seems you cannot buy a product called "maize" in the UK. However you can buy "corn".

The people who grow it call it "corn", the people who sell it call it "corn", people who tell other people who to cook it use "corn", and people who eat it call it "corn".

In those contexts the term "maize" only seems to be used by UK Corn growers. Even the people they sell to dont use "maize".

Britannia and World Book have Corn articles that they redirect you to if you search for "maize".

The only reason to call this article "Maize" is if you have an etymological axe to grind. You might as well refile "Edible Salt" under "Sodium Chloride"

Your argument appears confused to me. I'll challenge you to try making that recipe with Waxy corn and see how well it turns out. This article is about maize in general. As I say, most of the references you are counting will actually be refering to sweetcorn (and surely I don't have to point out that the mention of a corn-cob in that recipe is the qualification as to which corn is being discussed).

In the UK, corn can be used to refer to sweetcorn (either as a shorthand contraction, or as a result of an adopted Americanism), but it also commonly refers to wheat and other grains - see [5]. If you can find an Englishman to ask, try seeing whether they know what cornflakes are made from (many will guess wheat - which, curiously enough, they originally were). Similarly, see whether they would expect to find poppies growing in a cornfield in spring.

But this isn't really about cultural differences. The real issue is that corn is an imprecise term whose meaning varies depending on context, whilst maize isn't. -- Solipsist 20:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Likewise 'salt' is an imprecise term (and much more so) yet there is no confusion in daily conversation if calcium chloide or sodium cholide is ment.

My argument is that I dont believe a substantial population of people, including in the UK, use the term "maize". Show me evidence that they do. Certainly it appears UK stores sell either corn or sweetcorn but never maize.

Nor do people feel there is a danger of ambiguity when they write up recipes in the UK. Your prefered disambiguator "maize" is never used unless the dish is specifically Latin American.

Or check Britannica http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9361626 where the definition of corn is zea mays and there is no reference to other grains. And there is no article for "maize"- because I dont believe that term is in common use. Wikipedia is out of step.

And as was mention above, maize is an imprecise term. I have heard "maize" mostly in the context of "Indian Corn" or a strictly decorative dried corn. As mentioned here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/indian%20corn The definition of "Indian Corn" appears to differ substantially UK to US.

You do realize that Britannica is published in Chicago, USA and "uses a hybrid of British and American English". Rmhermen 23:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Britannica, Encarta, Worldbook and Columbia have articles on "Corn". And if you are so foolish to type in "maize" you get redirected to "Corn". Because "maize" is always a stub... could that be because "maize" is not commonly used?

Could it be because those are all encyclopedia written in American English? Rmhermen 00:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And you see no precedent at all?

So what reference work are Englishmen consulting when the BBC publishes a reference to 'corn flakes' such as: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3232764.stm that Solipsist would have us believe has caused mass confusion among readers?

I cant imagine what is even being defend here anymore. Certainly not the statement: "No maize really is more common"- otherwise maize would be sold in stores. And surely not the statement that 'corn' is ambiguous because the term is used more frequently than "maize" in the UK media.

Just look at the news articles: all from BBC- GM experts cautious on maize crop,

Hunger grips in Malawi maize crisis, Maize bread (recipe from BBC), US maize 'threat' to Mexico farms, etc. Rmhermen 02:24, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4008205.stm [and BTW what a crappy article, its like something from a free college newspaper] "However, some indigenous farmers are still worried. "The indigenous people of Mexico have farmed corn for 10,000 years," said Mr Gonzales." The actual guy, who farms it every day, calls it "corn". The academic, thousands of miles away, uses "maize".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/entertainment/days_out/maze_2003.shtml:

" Mazes. Enormous mazes cut during the summer months into fields of corn. " Corn is used 4 times, Maize 3 times.

Or this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4450735.stm Entire story on GM corn that does not use the phrase "maize" once. There is no standard at the BBC or it is ignored.

My family owns a farm in Illinois and in the 80 years we have grown "corn" we have never heard of it as being referred to as maize in this business. I attended Northern Illinois University which has a Dekalb corn research department. It is stated there that maize was the term used by native Americans, but the proper modern english term is corn. About the only corn referred to as maize is the multi-colored "Indian corn".75.21.104.194 07:03, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article too long?

I think it should be divided up. Kaw in stl 21:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move (Dec 06)

In what seems to be a drive-by action, this article has been moved by an editor to this alternative title in a rather unilateral fashion. At least, I can see no evidence that consensus was reached on this (or any other) title in the (now hastily archived) preceding discussions on this page.

What's more, no due consideration has been given to addressing any of the various (double) redirects, dabs, and other links.

I for one think this move should be undone and the article restored to its former title maize, however subsequent edits to that page after the redirect was effected mean that this restoration cannot now be actioned (without admin intervention/assistance).--cjllw | TALK 01:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Agree Zzorse 02:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I reverted already. The mover has a history of even odder unsupported moves. Rmhermen 02:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

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