Talk:Mahmoud Abbas

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Since the words shahid and martyr are interchangable an alternate translation might be "I present this victory to the soul of brother Yassir Arafat and to our other martyrs," instead of: "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids,"

I've removed the following text:

Recently, Abbas was the target of a al-Fatah attack. During a celebration where he figured, a large number of masked males appeared. They appearently fired in the air. It is unclear to me, but the incident ended with the death of two bodyguards. Abbas himself had been wisked away before the firing started. Later, Abbas has recented the incident as an assasination attempt, but rather as a clash between two security forces that had gone awry. Palestinian security officials later supported this view.

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A friend points out that he is called "Mahmoud Abbas" in the American press, and "Abu Mazen" everywhere else. Anyone have a more complete story on where his name comes from? This might help us decide what the "official" page should be. Graft 19:25, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Mahmoud Abbas is his actual name, while "Abu Mazen" is an adopted nom-de-guerre. I'm not sure what "Abu" means, but it's very common as a nom-de-guerre for Palestinians -- Yassir Arafat, for example, adopted the name Abu Amr, though he rarely uses it anymore, and there are quite a few other examples. --Delirium 19:29, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

Here in Germany he's called "Mahmud Abbas" as well. But, as I have heard, arabians tend to like changing their names all the time. A friend of mine, an attorney, told me how difficult that makes prosecuting arabian terrorists (or suspects) here, because it's also fairly common among rightous people... By the way, as far as I know "abu" means father. --malbi

For the record, this was originally at [[Abu Mazen]], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When used like this, "Abu" means "Father of" or "Man of" in Arabic. Many Arab nationalists adopt this kind of nom de guerre, e.g. Abu Nidal (father of the struggle), Abu Mazen, Abu Jihad (father of jihad), Abu Sayaff (father of the sword), etc. Interestingly, a similar thing occurs with Jewish nationalists, who upon entering Israeli society typically leave their diaspora names behind them. Chadloder 15:42, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Title of Yasser Arafat 2 New Material 3 Baha'i? 4 Charged? 5 Charged? 6 Title of Yasser Arafat 7 New Material 8 Removed non NPOV sentence 9 Missing sources 10 Reverting the quote 11 Holocaust Denial is Anti-Semitism 12 Blessed martyrs 13 "His reputation in the West"

[edit] Title of Yasser Arafat

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

When Chairman Arafat enters the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, he will use the title 'Chairman (Ra'ees in Arabic) of the Palestinian Authority' or 'Chairman of the PLO', and will not use the title 'President of Palestine.'

Since then, Arafats official title in all international documents has been "Chairman" - either of the PLO or the PA. The PA was established, and its structure was formed, as part of an international agreement. Arafat can call himself whatever he likes on his website - his official title will still be "Chairman of the PA".

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the basic document of the PA? The letter by Rabin does not carry any legal standing, I believe. Is this an issue like with the FYROM, where the international community does not recognize the legal/domestic name? --Jiang 08:43, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not find the document you requested. However, here is an example of an international statement from 2000 which Arafat is a side to, and which referrs to him as "Palestinian Authority Chairman": [1].

This is perhaps somewhat like the issue with FYROM - except that Macedonia is an independent state (this is not disputed) - and therefore has more autonomy in deciding on its own name, whereas the PA is merely an "authority" - a product of international agreements - and is bound more strictly by those agreements.

The fact that the term "President of the PA" is never used in any official document to which the US (or Israel) is a side to - even when the PA is a side to the document - serves as an evidence that this title is not internationally recognized.

Since this seems to be a disputed issue (I did find some non-Palestinian references to "President Arafat", alongside references to Arafat as "Chairman of the PA") - I suggest that we remove his title completely from this article, and explain the situation in the Yasser Arafat article.

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Re Abu Mazen, the name is not a nom-de-guerre. It is a real name, meaning father of Mazen. Many Arabs change their name on the birth of their first son to Abu 'name of son' . Irish people followed a similar custom but linked to the father's name. Conor Ó Brien, meant Conor, son of Brien. Conor's son Sorley would be called Sorley Ó Connor, his son Padraic in turn would be called Padraic MacSorley, etc. However the tradition of changing names to link with a father's name has long since died out, but words like Ó (O'), Mc (Mac), etc symbolise that old link. Calling Abu Mazen a nom-de-guerre is misleading, as it is a real name adopted following Arab custom. A nom-de-guerre is a different thing entirely. Some Arab leaders do have Abu - xxx nom-de-guerres, but Mazen isn't one of them. FearÉIREANN 18:55, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

---

Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it indicates that they may or may not be true. If multiple people had said the same thing, or it came from a neutral source, that'd be one thing. But it comes from a single source who is known to have a rivalry with the PA, so that makes it somewhat suspect. --Delirium 23:23, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...the timing does not fit well. Daoud published in 1999 (could have been written earlier) Abbas had a promient role then that would cause Daoud to target him for a false allegation? What role? OneVoice 12:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better if we could find a reply from Abbas and replace the "not corroborated by others" line with something like "Abbas denies the charges, saying '...'" (since I assume he denies the charges)? I'll do some searching in a bit. The main thing I objected to was presenting Daoud's charges as unopposed fact, when they're not generally considered such (I don't think even the US accepted them, or at least it didn't say much about them). --Delirium 21:48, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] New Material

The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.

"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [2]

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Baha'i?

I've heard a rumor about Mahmoud Abbas that he's a Baha'i, this should be researched and confirmed, if so, we should add him to the list of Baha'is.  :) Any comments? --Agari 14:36, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

I've heard that this was a rumour put about by Mossad in order to discredit him, and I recall people posting (on usenet Baha'i sites I regularly read) articles where he denies this. So, no he shouldn't be added to lists of Baha'is. I can try to look up those posts if anyone is interested. PaulHammond 22:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Abu Mazen has repeatedly denied this, but it has repeatedly been used against him (e.g. by Osama Bin Laden and the ex Shin Bet chief)

I have done quite a bit of research into this question (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BahaiMonitor/message/2)

I think this is an interesting question and relevant to Abu Mazen so it should be included. Any comments? User:AndrewRT 62.7.148.208 14:57, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Two points to settle the matter:

1) One of the twelve fundamental principles of the Bahá'í Faith is obedience to government and non-involvement in politics. This would mean that, if Abu Mazen were Baha'i, he has spent the last fifty years of his life blatantly disregarding one of the fundamental precepts of his prophet and church.

2) Not only is the Universal House of Justice (that is, the physical center of the Baha'i faith), located in Haifa, Israel, but the Baha'i have never challenged the establishment of Israel. Abu Mazen was nominally opposed to its existence until 1974.

Of course, Abu Mazen could have had an interest in Baha'i theology... but he would never have been accepted as active member in the church because of his political activities. End of story. --(Mingus ah um 01:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC))

No, not end of story, how many politicians do you know who have defied their religous beliefs? are you telling me ever baha'i, christian, muslim jew etc follow all aspects of their religion? Hardly. Furthermore, Hamas recognise Mahmoud Abbas as a Baha'i so there you go. (Truth 06 08:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC))

Never heard about this, very interesting if true, though it would put the Bahai faith into "some shame" (though it's not their fault) because like said they're real respectful of Israel and of other beliefs, and are peaceful people, while Abu Mazen atleast throughout most of his life wasn't. Amoruso 15:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charged?

"He has been charged with involvement in terrorism" - has he actually been charged in a court of law, or merely accused? If it is a mere accusation, the wording should make that clear. Does anyone know more detail about this? --Smoddy 14:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Charged?

I've removed the following text:

Recently, Abbas was the target of a al-Fatah attack. During a celebration where he figured, a large number of masked males appeared. They appearently fired in the air. It is unclear to me, but the incident ended with the death of two bodyguards. Abbas himself had been wisked away before the firing started. Later, Abbas has recented the incident as an assasination attempt, but rather as a clash between two security forces that had gone awry. Palestinian security officials later supported this view.

It's badly written, it refers to "me," and requires more information in terms of accuracy to be placed in the article. --Prospero 04:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whats with the name? The news refers to him as Abbas. Pizza Puzzle

"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue." (Sukhtian) - what is Sukhtian? -- Zoe

The source -- See: References Pizza Puzzle

So did she say that, or is she quoting him? If she said it, why does it belong on this page? If he said it, why is she being quoted? -- Zoe

I think he is referred to as Abbas more often. Is that his official name? I suggest a move. Jiang 01:34 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

A friend points out that he is called "Mahmoud Abbas" in the American press, and "Abu Mazen" everywhere else. Anyone have a more complete story on where his name comes from? This might help us decide what the "official" page should be. Graft 19:25, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Mahmoud Abbas is his actual name, while "Abu Mazen" is an adopted nom-de-guerre. I'm not sure what "Abu" means, but it's very common as a nom-de-guerre for Palestinians -- Yassir Arafat, for example, adopted the name Abu Amr, though he rarely uses it anymore, and there are quite a few other examples. --Delirium 19:29, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

Here in Germany he's called "Mahmud Abbas" as well. But, as I have heard, arabians tend to like changing their names all the time. A friend of mine, an attorney, told me how difficult that makes prosecuting arabian terrorists (or suspects) here, because it's also fairly common among rightous people... By the way, as far as I know "abu" means father. --malbi

For the record, this was originally at [[Abu Mazen]], but I moved it several weeks ago. --Jiang 06:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

When used like this, "Abu" means "Father of" or "Man of" in Arabic. Many Arab nationalists adopt this kind of nom de guerre, e.g. Abu Nidal (father of the struggle), Abu Mazen, Abu Jihad (father of jihad), Abu Sayaff (father of the sword), etc. Interestingly, a similar thing occurs with Jewish nationalists, who upon entering Israeli society typically leave their diaspora names behind them. Chadloder 15:42, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Title of Yasser Arafat

In his letter to Yitzhak Rabin, dated May 4, 1994 (which led to the establishment of the Palestinian Authority), Arafat wrote (article 4):

When Chairman Arafat enters the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, he will use the title 'Chairman (Ra'ees in Arabic) of the Palestinian Authority' or 'Chairman of the PLO', and will not use the title 'President of Palestine.'

Since then, Arafats official title in all international documents has been "Chairman" - either of the PLO or the PA. The PA was established, and its structure was formed, as part of an international agreement. Arafat can call himself whatever he likes on his website - his official title will still be "Chairman of the PA".

uriber 08:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Do you have a link to the basic document of the PA? The letter by Rabin does not carry any legal standing, I believe. Is this an issue like with the FYROM, where the international community does not recognize the legal/domestic name? --Jiang 08:43, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I could not find the document you requested. However, here is an example of an international statement from 2000 which Arafat is a side to, and which referrs to him as "Palestinian Authority Chairman": [3].

This is perhaps somewhat like the issue with FYROM - except that Macedonia is an independent state (this is not disputed) - and therefore has more autonomy in deciding on its own name, whereas the PA is merely an "authority" - a product of international agreements - and is bound more strictly by those agreements.

The fact that the term "President of the PA" is never used in any official document to which the US (or Israel) is a side to - even when the PA is a side to the document - serves as an evidence that this title is not internationally recognized.

Since this seems to be a disputed issue (I did find some non-Palestinian references to "President Arafat", alongside references to Arafat as "Chairman of the PA") - I suggest that we remove his title completely from this article, and explain the situation in the Yasser Arafat article.

uriber 09:29, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Arafat is called president by the European Union, by every member of the Union and by many diplomats.

Re Abu Mazen, the name is not a nom-de-guerre. It is a real name, meaning father of Mazen. Many Arabs change their name on the birth of their first son to Abu 'name of son' . Irish people followed a similar custom but linked to the father's name. Conor Ó Brien, meant Conor, son of Brien. Conor's son Sorley would be called Sorley Ó Connor, his son Padraic in turn would be called Padraic MacSorley, etc. However the tradition of changing names to link with a father's name has long since died out, but words like Ó (O'), Mc (Mac), etc symbolise that old link. Calling Abu Mazen a nom-de-guerre is misleading, as it is a real name adopted following Arab custom. A nom-de-guerre is a different thing entirely. Some Arab leaders do have Abu - xxx nom-de-guerres, but Mazen isn't one of them. FearÉIREANN 18:55, 8 Sep 2003 (UTC)

---

Delirium, why add "However, Daoud is the sole source for these charges, and they have not been corroborated by others." What does this convey to the reader? OneVoice 22:10, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it indicates that they may or may not be true. If multiple people had said the same thing, or it came from a neutral source, that'd be one thing. But it comes from a single source who is known to have a rivalry with the PA, so that makes it somewhat suspect. --Delirium 23:23, Feb 12, 2004 (UTC)

Hmm...the timing does not fit well. Daoud published in 1999 (could have been written earlier) Abbas had a promient role then that would cause Daoud to target him for a false allegation? What role? OneVoice 12:27, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps it'd be better if we could find a reply from Abbas and replace the "not corroborated by others" line with something like "Abbas denies the charges, saying '...'" (since I assume he denies the charges)? I'll do some searching in a bit. The main thing I objected to was presenting Daoud's charges as unopposed fact, when they're not generally considered such (I don't think even the US accepted them, or at least it didn't say much about them). --Delirium 21:48, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] New Material

The issue was a key factor in the collapse of peace talks in 2000. President Bush last April publicly embraced Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position that refugees be allowed into any new Palestinian state but not into Israel.

"We promise that we will not rest until the right of return of our people is achieved and the tragedy of our diaspora ends," Abbas told a session of parliament held to mourn Arafat, who died of an undisclosed illness in France on Nov. 11. [4]

Please add. Lance6Wins 18:30, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Removed non NPOV sentence

I've taken this out:

Analysts in accurately predicted that these remarks might have harmed his prospects in the then-upcoming election, perhaps neglecting the popular impact of his physical and political embrace of representatives of Hamas, a terrorist group.

Which analyst predicted that? How does the writer know what considerations may or may not have influenced the voting of electors? Who says Hamas are terrorists, and who says Mazen supports them politically, despite his calls for moderation?

Anyway, this article will need a rewrite since Abu Mazen appear to have become the President of the PA today 1 PaulHammond 22:38, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing sources

The following statements seem suspicious and need sources or explanations:

"However, he refused to disarm Palestinian militants and use force to act against groups that Israel, the United States, and the European Union designated as "terrorist organizations"."

"Upon acceptance, confusion over his position suddenly emerged after statements made to the crowd chanting "a million shahids". Abbas stated, "I present this victory to the soul of brother martyr Yassir Arafat and to our shahids," then promised to protect the "strugglers" wanted by Israel for "terrorist" attacks, and that "the little jihad has ended and now the big jihad is beginning"."

The last paragraph is taking the naughty bits and interpreting them in a non-objective way even if it has a source. It's a shame, because the rest of the article is close to feature status (IMHO). I would remove it myself but I don't want to start an edit war. Palestine-info 06:24, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Satiany should not remove "unreferenced" quotes just because they disagree with his point of view; Wikipedia intends to be NPOV. One of my "unreferenced" quotes had a reference CLEARLY STATED after it. Interestingly, Satiany left in a pro-Abbas quote that had NO references. Nevertheless, I have added a reference to the unferenced quote before readding both quotes.

[edit] Reverting the quote

Hmm. I think that you need to do things to include that quote. First, you need to source it to the book not to an extremely biased website. It's an unreliable source. You need to acquire the book really and see that Abbas did actually say it. I don't doubt he did -- holocaust denial is an ugly and unfortunate part of many Arabs' understanding of the world -- but I think you need to more carefully source. Second, you need to recognise that the accusation of holocaust denial is given prominence earlier in the article and that to then quote him saying exactly that in a "Quotes" section -- which would normally be memorable things that people have said (like the jihad thing, maybe), rather than pointscoring quotes from either side -- rather unbalances the article. Were you to put the reference in the earlier section, that would be much more NPOV. I won't be watching this page and I'm not interested in edit warring but I hope you will give my reasons for removing the quote due consideration. Happy editing, guys.Grace Note 03:13, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Holocaust Denial is Anti-Semitism

From Mahmoud Abbas: "His doctoral thesis later became a book, The Other Side: the Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism, which, following his appointment as Palestinian Prime Minister in 2003, was heavily criticized as an example of Holocaust denial. In his book, Abbas raised doubts that gas chambers were used for the extermination of Jews, and suggested that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was "less than a million." "

From another Talk page: Holocaust denial is anti-Semitic. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:25, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, this person should be in the category Anti-Semitism, no?--68.211.197.252 06:29, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps. In my mind, two questions need to be resolved before he should be labeled: 1) When was his thesis written?; and, 2) Is there any indication that he has changed his tune since then? You may ask: why do these questions matter? Well... Thirty years ago, Abbas agreed to accept the existence of Israel... Perhaps he has publicly agreed to accept the tragic reality of the Holocaust as well. If he has, I think his essay should be forgiven but not forgotten.

--(Mingus ah um 02:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Blessed martyrs

Wasn't Abu Mazen the name of the palestinian kamikaze warrior who rammed the US Marine HQ in Beirut 1983 with a bomb truck killing circa 200 gringo soldiers? 195.70.32.136 09:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but this would only mean that both Mahmoud Abbas and said individual both named their first-born son Mazen (Abu Mazen = "Father of Mazen"). Such coincidences are common in the Middle East. For more information, check Arabic name. --(Mingus ah um 01:43, 14 April 2006 (UTC))

[edit] "His reputation in the West"

I'm not too happy with this sentence in the introduction. It seems to be trying to reflect common assumptions in the Anglo-saxon media. I would prefer to see it removed or replaced by something more factual and sourced. Any comments? Palmiro | Talk 19:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I took a quick shot at revising the sentence, but it could still use some work. Here's the original sentence: His reputation in the West is that of a moderating influence in the Palestinian Authority.

...and here's the new one: With Hamas now in control of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas is frequently portrayed as the face of Palestinian moderation.

Perhaps we should also include something about the internal turmoil within Fatah (that is, compare Abbas to some the more radical popular leaders within his own political movement). --(Mingus ah um 02:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC))