Talk:Magneto (comics)

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Archives
2003 – Aug 2006

Contents 1 Archiving 2 Cleanup topics 2.1 Length 2.2 Citations 2.3 Chronology 3 General Comments 4 Erik 5 Joseph 6 Image 7 magnetos current status ! 8 Children 9 Magneto's body 10 Merge discussion 10.1 Vote 10.2 Comments 10.3 Consensus

[edit] Archiving

Archived the talk page by moving it. There were just too many unsigned comments to try to go through the history to fix. Moving the page history seemed the right way to handle it. - jc37 20:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup topics

[edit] Length

Obviously the article is rather long.

• For one thing, due to the character's mental/emotional/ethical complexity, and because Magneto is a major actor in the Marvel universe, the "synopsis" of his history has become rather long. However, I see several places where we can begin condensing/splitting:
  • History (the sections which follow the Early life and Rise of Magneto sections) - These sections need to be unified and condensed into a single section, with "extra" information merged into associated articles.
  • Xorn-specific information is best dealt with in the Xorn article. And since this is "ongoing", it also keeps all edits/changes in one location. A very short summary, with a template:Main link should be fine.
  • There is enough information to start a separate article dealing with the character's ethical complexities. A discussion about what to call that article would be helpful.

• Alternate versions - these should all be merged into the associated articles' character entries, and just be a simple listing, with perhaps a sentence or two for reference.

• Whether or not the "membership" templates are deleted, Template:X-Men should be placed at the bottom of the article.

This is at least a starting point. - jc37 19:33, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the history the first thing that needs to be chopped up is the House of M section. It's overly long for such a small part of the character's history. I've only skimmed the series so someone more familiar with the mini should take a shot at condensing it. WesleyDodds 08:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

Another thing we need is citations. Books about comic books, that DK Ultimate Guide to the X-Men, articles in print that offer analysis about the character, interviews with creators, documentaries from X-Men DVDs and television (quite a few comics documentaries have been made), and so forth can all be cited in order to give a fuller picture of the character. WesleyDodds 21:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The DK books contain many errors. I talked to two of the editors recently, regarding the upcoming MARVEL ENCYCLOPEDIA, which is apparently going to be much more accurate, because it was rewritten from scratch, and a team of writers worked on it, and a team of editors from Marvel checked it out. The DK Guides are problematic, because the author, Sanderson, had not kept up with all the history of the characters, and remains aloof from Marvel, and DK did not feel it necessary to check with Marvel when it reprinted the Guides. The original X-MEN book from DK, edited by Jon Richardson, was going to be corrected but then Richardson left DK. The 2nd and 3rd editions were published after he left -- you'll note his name is still listed as editor -- as reprints, and while some more recent events and characters were added, none of the previous mistakes that he was going to fix, were fixed. Always more accurate are the "Marvel Encyclopedia" series, that used to be published in-house, and the Official Handbooks. There are a number of books that were published in the last year.--Myst3 03:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to a copy of Comics Creators on X-Men? It's a collection of interviews with writers and artists who've worked on X-Men comics. I skimmed through this at the bookstore today and found a couple of interesting points:

• Stan Lee says he toyed with the idea of making Xavier and Magneto brothers
• Chris Claremont's interpretation of Magento stems from the first time he is shown without his helmet[1], which made him think that he didn't look like such a bad guy after all. He goes in-depth into his formulation of Magneto's background and why he chose the Holocaust background.
• John Byrne advocates the "vicious bastard" interpretation of Magneto, and insinuates that Claremont wrote Magneto the way he did (evil with a bit of nobility about him) because he wanted to use Dr. Doom but couldn't after the whole Doombot debacle in Uncanny X-Men. He says "He even had a gypsy background at one point". WesleyDodds 03:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

John Byrne is, once again, repeating a lie that's been repeatedly disproven. Dave Cockrum and Chris Claremont have both attested to that. John Byrne's story is a fabrication, that he started putting about after the first X-MEN movie came out. It is complete horse hockey. I've spoken to Dave Cockrum several times about it, and he's written about it, and he's quoted in the X-MEN CREATORS book you cite above. (I do have a copy.) If you read the X-MEN COMPANION volumes 1 and 2 from 1982, with interviews of Claremont, Cockrum, Byrne, and several others, it is clear what Claremont thought of the character Dr. Doom as a monster and a ratbastard, and he thought that Magneto had nobility. He didn't want to make Magneto another "Dr. Doom" because his perception of Doom was different from Byrne's. But Byrne's story is a fabrication. As Cockrum and Claremont have repeatedly said, they DID get to use Dr. Doom! In the story arc immediately preceding the Magneto arc where Claremont gave Magneto his Holocaust history. As Dave Cockrum has said, why in the world would they want to use Doom again? They just used him! As a matter of fact, it was Byrne who was wildly jealous that Claremont had used Doom, and he very much disapproved of the way Claremont used him in UNCANNY X-MEN, and that is why he invented the "Doom-bot" idea in the first place, to try and say that the Doom Claremont used in UNCANNY wasn't the real Dr. Doom! So, no, Claremont and Cockrum planned to make Magneto a Jewish Holocaust survivor in 1981, and he was always meant to be Jewish. As they both have stated. They were there, they were the creators involved. -- Myst3 03:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I put little stock in what John Byrne says as any sort of absolute truth, but it's still a viewpoint he maintains that you can cite. WesleyDodds 06:04, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chronology

We also need to take out the in-universe chronology of the fictional biography. He wasn't introduced as a Holocaust victim, for example. --Newt_ΨΦ 21:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That's fine to mention in the biography, but the publication history prior to it should mention how the character started in the Silver Age (raving madman) and how Claremont added details over the years. WesleyDodds 21:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so sure, check Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/editorial guidelines#The use of in-universe statistics and chronology. I think with retcons and such it might leave a bit too much out to treat his history as continuous, but maybe so. --Newt_ΨΦ 22:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I suppose my point is while his Holocast background is a retcon, it didn't replace anything, since prior to that almost none of his background was given; consequently, much of his appearances rely on it and related details (Magda, his friendship with Xavier, etc.) for context. After all, Batman didn't have an origin until five issues after his first appearance, but it's become integral to understanding the character. WesleyDodds 01:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. I agree it should be included, however I'm wondering if we should follow out-of-universe chronology, meaning we start with his first appearance and talk about how his backstory is later retconned/revealed in a flashback by Claremont or whoever in that issue of Uncanny X-Men, basically treating him as a comic book character who is developed over the years, or treat him like a real person and first talk about his birth, then his childhood, his coming to terms with his powers, his marriage to Magda, his subsequent search for her... and so on. I'm thinking we should do the former. --Newt_ΨΦ 01:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I am for reducing the in-universe chronology but so much information about the character has been given, including the "Erik Lehnsherr" false identity, having some sort of sketch or timeline of the character history would be very useful to include for people wanting to learn about the character itself rather than it's literary history.75.110.75.22 13:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)KiplingKat

There's an index of X-Men comics at TheXAxis.com that yields several historical details (for one, Magneto was so one-dimensional when he debuted that even his background with Xavier didn't exist yet). There's also a listing of stories that take place before his first appearance. WesleyDodds 01:52, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that. There's also Bibliography of Magneto which I used to condense and cite the "Early life" section. I also worded it more out-of-universe and it reads more than ever like it needs to follow out of universe chronology. --Newt_ΨΦ 02:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think the character history falls under this:

• "Of course, out-of-universe information needs context; details of creation, development, etc. are more helpful if the reader understands a fictional element's role in its own milieu. This often involves using the fiction to give plot summaries, character descriptions or biographies, or direct quotations. This is not inherently bad, provided that the fictional passages are short, are given the proper context, and do not constitute the main portion of the article. If such passages stray into the realm of interpretation, secondary sources must be provided to avoid original research." - Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)

- jc37 04:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

But that section further states:

• "Even these short summaries can often be written from an out-of-universe perspective, and when this is possible, this approach should be preferred."

which leads me to believe we should still try to work out-of-universe, especially in chronology. It's more informative about the character to talk about his early appearances as a one-dimensional megalomaniac and move on to introduce the later developed backstory of why he's a megalomaniac than to treat it as one continuous story. There's little disclosure right now of the 20 years time and different writers from Magneto's first appearance and the development of his tragic past. --Newt_ΨΦ 13:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Comments

I agree that the personal history of Magneto needs to be condensed, especially in instances such as "House of M" which has its own article, in favor of a treatment of Magneto the fictional character and how he has been approached by various writers through the X-Men and their spin off series runs. The argument between Byrne and Claremont being one of many various artists have had over the years over the character being either a craven bastard or walking Greek tragedy (megalomaniacal being a given). 75.110.75.22 00:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)KiplingKat

[edit] Erik

Granted that Magneto has used many aliases over the years, but Isn't it firmly established that his first name is actually Erik? - jc37 22:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I kind of get that impression. And hell, that's the name they give him in the movies. It's interesting to note that in the "Planet X" issues the recap pages give his real name as Erik Magnus Lehnsherr; I think he's even called Erik in the story. But we all know what happened with that. WesleyDodds 22:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'd like to be able to use "Erik", especially in the "early history" section (before he was known as Magneto, which is also an alias, just one that is the most commonly known). So can you point me to any actual citations? (An issue where someone actually calls him Erik as a child, for example.) - jc37 23:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"Erik" is a an assumed name, though. There is no comic that has him called "Erik" as a child. Magneto took this false name after Magda ran away from him, before he immigrated to Israel and met Charles Xavier. "Erik Magnus Lehnsherr" is not his real name, and we don't know what his name was when he was a child. Either "Erik" or "Magnus" could have been part of his birth name, but that is nothing but speculation at this point. He himself has declared "Magnus" as his only name, so I call him Magnus when I'm referring to his history before he met Charles Xavier. The "recap" page of a comic book isn't considered continuity, in any case. The only thing that has been firmly established is that "Erik Lehnsherr" is a false name, in X-MEN vol.2 #72.-Myst3 20:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, just because "Erik Lehnsherr" is a pseudonym, that doesn't mean that "Erik" is not his real first name.

"...don't know what his name was when he was a child." - I don't know for certain either which was why I was (and still am) asking if anyone out there who might actually have a reference that states this. - jc37 20:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Did he ever tell Xavier that it was just an alias? Because I've seen flashback panels where Xavier calls him Erik (namely that issue that the article grabs a scan from).

And of course the recap page of a comic isn't continuity, but it gives us a frame of reference as to Marvel's stance on the subject. WesleyDodds 21:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The recap page isn't continuity, and it only reflects the ignorance of an editor or writer, if it reflects error. If you want to check out Marvel's stance, please visit Marvel.com and the Magneto biography, or read the Official Handbook from 2005 that deals with the X-Men characters.

And no, there is no reference to any use of the name "Erik" before Xavier meets Magnus in Israel. Since I've read every Magneto appearance, I'm probably right, although I could of course be wrong. In comics that were written after the "Erik" name was introduced in 1992, there are stories that take place at the time Xavier meets Magneto in Israel, and thereafter, and yes Xavier is depicted as calling Magnus "Erik." And why not? "Erik Lehnsherr" is Magneto's adopted name. It's still the name he's known by in the Marvel Universe, and it's the name he probably used when he immigrated to Israel. But it's not his birth name. The question was asked, is this the name of his childhood, and it is not. Magneto is very specific about it -- he says he denied who he was, everything he family died for, when he took the false identity of "Erik Lehnsherr the Sinte." It's a very strong statement -- to say, "I denied who I was..." when he took the name and false ethnicity. The name "Erik Lehnsherr" was invented by the forger Georg Odekirk. It is not his birth name. It's like the name "Stan Lee" -- or any other adopted name -- it's the only name Magneto goes by, it's the name on his legal papers (forged papers though they are). But it is not his original, birth name.-- Myst3 03:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Myst is right, "Erik Lehnsherr, Sinte Gypsy" is a forged identity he created while he was traveling through Eastern Europe looking for Magda who was of Gypsy decent. This has come from the Marvel offices. The entire introduction of the idea of Magneto as a Gypsy and not a Jew, which was damn near explicitly spelled out by Cockrum and Claremont through the entire 1970’s and 1980’s, was introduced in Magneto #0 in which Gabrielle Hallar gave a briefing on Magneto and dropped the Erik Lahser name and his Gypsy background on an unsuspecting fanbase.

It was a complete bombshell and Marvel later admitted it was an attempt to retool the character to avoid a backlash from the Jewish community because of the situation in the Middle East.

Unfortuntally, that annoucement came too late to get the name pulled from the movie scripts.

So far, the only non-code name we have heard Magneto called is "Magnus". Given his Jewish background in the early 20th century, and the fact that he was among the first group of Jews to arrive at Auschwitz (see Uncanny X-Men #199), it is unlikely that his name is Germanic in nature. It’s more likely he would be an “Isaac” than an “Erik”.~KiplingKat

[edit] Joseph

It just occurred to me that Xorn is not the first time people where confused as to who was actually Magneto. From what I understand, Joseph was originally meant to be a deaged Magneto (not just viewed as such by other characters, but actually intended as such by editorial), but this was changed. Can anyone verify this? WesleyDodds 06:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Shouldn't we get a more recent image? The one we have right now is kinda...umm...WAY outdated.

Does he look any different? Is it not representative of the character anymore? --Newt_ΨΦ 02:51, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] magnetos current status !

it is not known if magneto still has acssess to his powers. the editer persumed that because magnetos body was not found means that he has his powers again. this has not been confirmed by the publishers so i am editing the last bit of current continuity. any objections —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dr noire (talk • contribs).

Not necessarily to your edits, no, but to the line they reference. I removed it and your edits because it's all speculative and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Also, please sign your comments. --Newt_ΨΦ 20:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Children

Just to make this clear, Quicksilver, the Scarlet Witch and Polaris are all confirmed as Magneto's children.

Zaladane claimed to be Polaris' sister (and Alex noted there was some resemblance) but that does not make her Magneto's daughter. She could be, or she may be the daughter of Lorna's mother by another man. So yeah, that's why I deleted the mention of her as Magneto's daughter. I don't think we should have her listed as "possibly Magneto's daughter" as she just claimed a connection to Polaris and despite being involved with Magneto she never claimed any relation to him. Cherries Jubilee 01:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Polaris is revealed to be Magneto's daughter in the 2000s. Wiki-newbie 16:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magneto's body

(if you find any language error, please forgive me)

Magneto (in comics) shouldn't have a Mr. Universe's body, because he's a very old guy and he doesn't have any slowed aging process. His true appearance would have to be the one shown in the X-Men's recent films. Brazilian Man 15:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That seems more a critique of the artists than the article. I'll cede your point, but that has little to do with the article. Please keep the discussion focused on the article. Thanks! --Psyphics_ΨΦ 16:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

If you recall, he was actually de-aged to infancy by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant. When he was later re-aged, it was to his prime, not to his actual chronological age. Given the way the time lines work in comics, he is still in his thirties in terms of his physical age. One could also speculate that, in addition, he does indeed have a slowed aging process compared to us Homo sapiens - many of these mutant characters have altered physiologies to support their primary powers. However, speculation aside, the point is that Magneto's body is supposed to be that of a fairly young man. None of this needs to be said in the article, but I hope it clears things up. Metamagician3000 23:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to add that since Magneto's power is channeled through his body/nervous system and he has difficulty using his power when he is injured, it has been in his best interest to stay in prime physical condition. How his power is used was discussed in X-Men (not Uncanny, just X-Men) 2 & 3 when he discovered that when he was living as in infant after Mutant Alpha regressed him, Moria McTaggart had attempted to correct a flaw in his genetic structure that created chemical imbalances in his brain whenever he used his power on huge scales, such as putting Asteroid M into the air or altering the Earth's magnetic field.

This is an intriguing aspect of the character that Marvel has introduced but never explored: That whenever Magneto uses his power on epic, planet altering scales, he becomes chemically imbalanced as if he is bi-polar.

~ KiplingKat

[edit] Merge discussion

[edit] Vote

1. Oppose Wiki-newbie 19:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Oppose ThuranX 03:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
3. Oppose. --DrBat 04:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Oppose Metamagician3000 04:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
5. Oppose Nejee16 21:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
6. Oppose Myst3 13:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

• The film will get made, it's better to have an article now than later. Wiki-newbie 19:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
• Concur with W-n. ThuranX 03:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
• Hmm. Honestly, I forgot to put Magneto (comics) on my watchlist, so I missed out on this. I suggested a merge because there is no recent information about this film, according to the article. What I had intended was to merge the existing information at Magneto (film) and redirect the article to the appropriate subsection on this article. When the project becomes live, then the redirect can be fleshed back out to a full-fledged film article. Honestly, I'm disappointed that this was pretty much a straightforward vote without discussion; not in line with WP:POLL. --Erik (^talk/_contrib) @ 22:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus

No merge. Wiki-newbie 21:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)