Talk:Magick

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Wikiproject_Thelema Magick is part of WikiProject Thelema, an attempt to expand, improve, and standardize articles related to Thelema. You are invited to participate by editing the article or by joining the Thelema WikiProject as a participating member.


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[edit] New article in place, ready for editing

Based on a request, the new magick article in now in place. It is certainly incomplete, but I believe it offers a a good template for additions. Although the page history is in place, I have archived the last version here.

I realize that this is a big move. However, I honestly believe that the prior article was poorly constructed and rather hodge podge. If I did not include anything that editors feel strongly about, I of course welcome reintegration. I have no authority here...I'm just being bold. :)

I hope that editors will jump in with both feet in filling out all the empty sections. Let's really make this article shine!! –Frater5 (talk/con) 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The first sentece of this article makes no sense whatsoever

"Magick, in the broadest sense, is any act designed to cause intentional change." So tying my shoelaces is magick, now? It is an act, designed to cause intentional change.

I'm not really an expert on this subject, but perhaps "is any supernatural act designed to cause intentional change" would be a more precise definition? I dunno, but the current version is definitely not correct. --Ashenai 14:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, according to Crowley, any Willed act whatsoever is Magick. He says it quite literally in Book 4: "Every intentional act is a Magical act." He even gives an example for this: "Illustration: It is my Will to inform the World of certain facts within my knowledge. I therefore take "magical weapons", pen, ink, and paper; I write "incantations"---these sentences---in the "magical language" ie, that which is understood by the people I wish to instruct; I call forth "spirits", such as printers, publishers, booksellers and so forth and constrain them to convey my message to those people. The composition and distribution of this book is thus an act of Magick by which I cause Changes to take place in conformity with my Will." Couldn't be more plain, I think. –Frater5 (talk/con) 15:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. In that case, however, the statement needs qualification, or sourcing. It's not NPOV to state that "every intentional act is a Magickal act", because that's not a generally accepted definition in the non-Magickal community. How about something like "According to Crowley, in the broadest sense, is any act designed to cause intentional change," or something along those lines? --Ashenai 15:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind sourcing it, but the header makes it plain that the entire article is all "according to Crowley". However, I see your point, and perhaps the first sentence could make Crowley's involvement more articulate. –Frater5 (talk/con) 15:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Get Crowley to change his spelling of Magick. He spells it wrong in that quotation above. Flinders 13:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I just spoke with Crowley and he says he regrets the whole k thing now and wishes to apologise to everybody for the confusion he's caused. The quotation above therefore stays as is. ;) Fuzzypeg☻ 14:54, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Could he make some kind of public statement? His name is being so misused here in the service of people that have there own agenda. I would like to see it stopped, as previously I had great respect for him, until I started reading these Wikipedia articles invoking his name. Flinders 00:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fleshing out the article

In case the new article isn't clear, the following three sections are intended to be fleshed out, not just linked:

  • Other magical practices
  • Components of ritual magick
  • Schools of magick

Please consider writing out at least one or two paragraphs for each. Also, an editor took out the empty header for Sex Magick, which also deserves a nice treatment. Thanks! 15:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There's already an article on sex magic, so it should just be a brief intro and a reference to the main article. This may be true of other sections as well. -999 15:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are my suggestions for needed topics within the current article...

===Other magical practices===

  • Initiation
  • Magical record
  • magical oath
  • Talismans and sigils
  • Curses
  • Magical Link
  • Magical memory

==Components of ritual magick==

  • Elements and cardinal directions
  • Magical Weapons
  • Temple Components
  • Ritual signs and gestures
  • Vibration
  • Magical formulae

==Schools of magick==

  • Alchemy
  • Enochian magick
  • Goetic magick
  • Chaos magick

–Frater5 (talk/con) 21:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you think Crowley wrote about those in general? Anything can be added, as long as he actually discussed these topics. Zos 01:15, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See also section

Meanwhile, please stop removing the See also section. I think a good see also section is an improvement to the article. Stop undoing my work, you don't own the article. -999 22:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask that we restrain that section? Just to begin with, it shouldn't contain links to articles that don't exist. Jkelly 22:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. -999 01:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that, while all of this effort is going into this article, it may make sense to look at the associated Categories. They should be a much more efficient way of finding articles on related subjects than a long "See also" list, but they could use some attention. Jkelly 01:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High vs. Low Magick

A discussion of the meaning of High and Low magick should be included, as High Magick redirects here... -999 16:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

See below, Definition of Magick... it seems an ongoing issue here

[edit] The merge

It appears that my edits were not brought over. All of my edits were double cited. And there is only on cited statement in the area in which I edited.

Definition == Crowley defined magick as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will."[1][2] He goes on to elaborate on this, in one postulate, and twenty eight theorems.

Postulate and Theorems == His first clarification on the matter is that of a postulate, in which he states "ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object."[3][4]

I'd like this back in, since it was an actual improvement. Zos 01:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. Improve as thou wilt. -999 01:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Danke. I will when I finish moving to another state :p Zos 05:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The definition of Magick and the content of Magick article

Since when is Magick owned completely by thelema? The spelling of the word was not created by Crowley, and the Magick I use and teach is neither thelemic, nor is it paranormal, nor is it witchcraft. The information in this article makes it seem as if the term Magick is entirely controlled by Thelema and Crowley. Worse yet, the leading paragraph makes it clear that any non-thelemic "Magick" is relegated to witchcraft, folk magick, and "supernatural" as if all other practicioners of magick are somehow uncivilised or uneducated.

After all, what about Shamans, Druids, and hundreds of other religions, traditions, and paths that use "Magick" that is not paranormal (I.e. it is seen as a part of nature and is therefore "normal") and is not thelemic specifically, yet still uses the archaic spelling for the same reasons crowley did, but not nessecarily because of him?

This is incredibly offensive to me, though I have nothing specifically against Thelema or Crowley, I often refer to this article as it was written for my own students to read where they could find a good, detailed description and definition of Magick, but now it seems they will instead find a good detailed description of Thelema.

Please fix this. Put the thelema information on the thelema page, the crowley information on the Crowley page, and return the old Magick article as it was, because this is certainly not the correct page for a description of Thelema or detailing the works of a single individual (i.e. Crowley).

Thank you. -Arkayne Magii, Myrddin of the Elodrym

You may be looking for Magic (paranormal). If you have a reliable source showing the someone used the "magick" spelling to mean something specific before Crowley did, I'm sure the editors here would be very interested in incorporating that into the article. Jkelly 05:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with A.M. Please see my comments below —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rpehrson (talk • contribs). ("ryanthered")
To my knowledge, the spelling "magick" did appear in the work of some earlier English magicians, such as John Dee, but they were simply using the spelling of the time and meant nothing special by it. However by the 19th and 20th centuries that spelling was long obsolete, and it was Crowley alone who re-coined this spelling, giving it a very specific meaning and even giving it a different pronunciation ("mayj-ik"). Its original usage was purely within Thelemic circles, and those who admired Crowley; it gradually started to creep into wider usage through the influential books of Israel Regardie, who had been Crowley's personal secretary. However it still retained that "Crowleyite" flavour. In more recent years (particularly in the last ten or 15), people have started using the term in ignorance of its origins and specific meanings, having been (mis)informed by various sources that "magic" doesn't really mean magic, but only prestidigitation. Don't they remember when they were young, asking if that was "real" magic that the man with the top-hat was doing, and finding out that it wasn't real magic but the illusion of it? We have an article that covers magic in the paranormal sense (note: not "supernatural", since magic is considered by its practitioners to be entirely natural, but "paranormal", outside the normal experiences of most people). We could make this article simply redirect to that one, but that wouldn't do justice to the history and specific meanings of this spelling, a history and meaning which originate with Crowley. Fuzzypeg☻ 22:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the original paragraph in this article states:

"Magick, in the broadest sense, is any act designed to cause intentional change. [1] The archaic spelling with the terminal "k" was repopularized in the first half of the 20th century by Aleister Crowley when he made it a core component of his mystical system of Thelema."


Second, it comes from the Greek "Magikos" which evolved into the Anglicised version "Magike". "Magikos" which derived from "Magos", was itself derived from Old Persion "Magush".

English spelling was not a fixed system for quite some time, and throughout history, spelling changed based on who was writing and how each writer percieved the pronunciation of the word. often word spelling changed many times within the same manuscripts.

for the Etymology of the word Magic, see: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=MAGIC&searchmode=none

The Online Etymological Dictionary, which shows the original Greek spelling.

also, the American Heritage Dictionary page on Magick (http://www.bartleby.com/61/60/M0026050.html) defines Magick as:

An action or effort undertaken because of a personal need to effect change, especially as associated with Wicca or Wiccan beliefs.

and mentions neither Thelema nor Crowley, but DOES mention Wicca.

So again, I request that this be reworked into: Magick, Thelemic and that the original Magick page be put back up for the definition of Magick in general. It feels to me that this is simply a way of claiming dominance of the word "Magick" and attempting to associate it specifically and completely with Thelema and Thelemic tradition, and even in the very first sentance of the article, as I have already mentioned, it says that crowley only popularized an older archaic spelling, a spelling that I might point out was used prior to Crowley by Dee himself in his writings on Enochian Magick from which Crowley borrowed a great deal.

Also, the disclaimer about the topic at the very beginning of the article which reads: "This article refers to the magical system of Aleister Crowley and Thelema. For how this term appears in Wicca and similar Neopagan traditions, see Witchcraft and Folk magic. For a general survey of the topic, see Magic (paranormal). "

As you can see, it states that the srticle refers specifically to Thelema and Crowley, which is the foundation of my point that this should instead be listed under Magick, Thelemic or Magick, Crowley under the broader topic of Magick in general.

Please don't misunderstand me on this, I very much appreciate the information, and I am not arguing the accuracy of the article itself, but I simply believe that putting the Thelemic tradition as the general definition of Magick is wrong and misleading.

And no, I wasn't looking for Magic (paranormal) as you can see in reading my previous post.

- Arkayne Magii, Myrddin of the Elodrym

It seems the poster was misunderstood. There are many mages and practictioners who do not view magic as paranormal. It is, a way of life. A major part of daily spiritual practice. Magic with a "k" has come to denote a difference between stage magic and the spiritual belief. The etymology of "magic" includes the Greek word magike and magikos. EtymologyThe Greek origins of the word as well as the new use by Crowley should be included. Crowley popularized the magiCK version. This spelling isn't copyrighted by any one group so I disagree with the article leaning heavily toward the Thelema tradition. "Magick" was used at least as late as 1659 by Friar Roger Bacon Online Publication of the Translated TextThe magick article would be more accurate if the original magick article were restored, perhaps with some of the recently added information. Most of the Thelema information should be in another article with a link under See Also: Thelema Magick

We already have a page, Magic (paranormal) which covers general magic, and notes the possible spelling variation of adding a "k" at the end. The association the American Heritage Dictionary is drawing between "magick" and Wicca is presumably based on the huge numbers of poor quality books published in recent years that seem not even to be written by Wiccan initiates. I think most traditional Wiccans use "magic". The modern spelling "magick" stems entirely from the writings of Crowley and his students (and people like Israel Regardie, his one-time secretary). That the word was spelt with a k in the 1600s is kind of beside the point, since that disappeared centuries ago; we can treat it as a new word. (And Crowley intended it as a new word, with a new pronunciation too!) Deriving as it does from Crowley, this spelling is widely seen as connoting thelemic magick amongst the occult community, and when explained, it is normally explained using Crowley's definition.
We don't want to have two articles presenting the same information, so lets keep general magic in Magic (paranormal) and thelemic magick in Magick, and have clear explanations in the introduction of each article explaining what the article's scope is and where to look for the other meanings. Fuzzypeg☻ 14:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that Magick is a superset term, not limited only to Crowley's works. I believe Crowley would agree. Following are key points on talk page with 999-
Magick, according to Crowley, is causing change in accordance to the Will. There are a couple of things that come up immediately for someone who is really into any form of Magick as a way of knowing and being, rather than as a realm of clever argument and fundamentalist belief. First, what is changing? At what level? Second, what is the 'Will' and why is it capitalized? My answer is that change is often change of Consciousness and that Will is the True Will, not the will of the ego personality. Thus, Magick encompasses any system of changing consciousness, which is the essential Thing anyway, and any system of getting in touch with the True Will. That's of course just a start. There are many such systems within the mystic heart of many religious traditions. The community should be careful not to make Crowley and Magick some sort of fundamentalist religion in which clever theologians argue and argue and argue. Magick is not about clever argument ... that's just yuppie ego stuff.
Further, Mr. Crowley himself made use of many systems from the East and West in his explorations. The fundamentalist narrowmindedness that seems to be pervasive at present would have prevented Mr. Crowley from Yoga practices such as pranayama, for starters. And we all know how much Crowley recommends pranayama. But maybe that should only be referenced under Yoga?
Let us agree not to be fundamentalist on wikipedia but be inclusive of all systems of Magick, not just the (valuable) work of Brother A.C. Make a superset term called Magick, or alternatively, let's eliminate the term Magick entirely and be more specific. ryanthered 14:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)j
I find it unfortunate that so much information pertinent to magic in general has gone into this article: almost as if some people are trying to out-compete the Magic (paranormal) article simply because they prefer this spelling. I agree that this article shouldn't imply that to perform "magick" you have to be a member of any thelemic order or use their methods and rituals, however that does seem to be the current implication.
Anyway, Crowley and Thelema are inevitably going to feature strongly here. Your arguments are all phrased in terms of Mr. Crowley's definitions of magic, which is itself revealing. Surely, if the definition of the term comes from Crowley, he and his intentions for the term should feature prominently in the article? Don't forget we have another article dealing with magic in the wider sense. Fuzzypeg☻ 22:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Folks, I'm going to stop arguing and adding negative energy here. However my last statement on the subject is this. Magic (paranormal) is not acceptable to me. I have experience and authority enough but don't feel I should have to elaborate. I have read some of Crowley and I've been into other portions of the Western Mystery Tradition. I like Crowley's definition of Magick, as Change in accordance with the Will, and I see Magick wholistically as the active path up the Tree no matter the outer practices. But NONE of that is about the "Paranormal". I think there is some misunderstanding as to the focus of Magick and it likely comes from people watching too much TV or movies about Witches, etc.
I would point out that I am not the only one, judging from the discussion pages, that has been insulted and put off by the dogmatic, fundamentalist, single-minded focus on "Magick=Crowley" here. It doesn't.
I think that we have an example here of at least one editor that is hell-bent on making Magick=Crowley. I was told on my talk page that it's best to just dogmatically accept what other editors have done before me, even if I disagree. I feel like I'm back in Church and the Priest has warned me not to think or I'll go to Hell.
So instead of contributing to this community, I choose to go THINK elsewhere. It's really not my loss. But it is Wikipedia's loss and the world's loss when users are driven away by those whose egos require them to always be right and their content to be inviolable.-rpehrson 13:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't see my actions here at WP as ego-driven or dogmatic; they are aimed at truth, verifiability, and balanced representation. We work together as a community here, and we have to be willing to participate in discussion and attempt to reach consensus, and also to compromise at times. I have compromised many times in the past and I am ready to do so again with any new debate I enter.
It sounds to me like your major complaint is with the naming of the Magic (paranormal) article, which I admit, I too had to think twice about. I resigned myself to it being called "paranormal" because I figured it is at least not a "normal" area of study or awareness, and in the more extreme cases magic really does involve extraordinary events. There's nothing preventing us opening a discussion on a potential name change for the Magic (paranormal) page, and I might well be in support. I wouldn't support going under the "magick" banner, though, because it really does have uncomfortable Crowleyite connotations for myself and many others. Hey, why not just call the article "Magic"?
I hope you reconsider leaving WP... Fuzzypeg☻ 01:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please note the vandalism in the article

There has been a malicious change in this article, easily found in the first paragraph, please change back to the last good version. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.79.31.75 (talk • contribs) 02:35, 22 July 2006 UTC.

[edit] Is this article a hoax?

They actually link to Yoga, really? And other real articles about religion! Wow! This has got to be a scam! Flinders 22:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to say? What about the article is unclear to you, or seems wrong? Jkelly 22:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
No, it is not a hoax. Aleister Crowley was an early student of Yoga, Buddhism, Taoism and other discplines and his integration of these into his Magick are legit, though dated. -999 (Talk) 22:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow! You've got to be joking! SynergeticMaggot 23:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Ha! Ha! It is a joke. Flinders 13:12, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions from newbie

Hi. This is quite a rich article and kudos to those contributing. There does seem to be a need for sourcing though and I will do my best to contribute after research. I have heard of the use of yoga by various traditions though definitely that section needs sourcing. Id like to see a style change to make it read more neutrally whenever sources are introduced. eg Smith (year,page) says that blah blah..... There is a bit of undue argument in the article (notice the word -However- is used quite a bit). Apart from that I'm happy to work with others. AlanBarnet 14:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Could we move some of this to a new Ritual magic article?

For a long time I've thought Wikipedia needed a Ritual magic article; this is currently just a redirect to Magic (paranormal). There's a huge amount of history and techniques tied up in "ritual magic", and currently no article really does this justice. I see there's a lot of good writing here that relates most specifically to ritual magic, yet I also see complaints further up in the discussion page, that the implication seems to be that these techniques are the exclusive domain of Crowley and Thelemic magick.

Whenever possible I'd like to see concepts explored as broadly as possible, rather than from the perspective of only one tradition (an example would be Magic circle, which is currently described in almost purely Wiccan/neopagan witchcraft terms, but is a much older and wider concept than that). It seems to me that moving some of the material here into a Ritual magic article could make a really good start to the article. I'm not quite certain on the correct name for the article, since I imagine it exploring largely western ritual magic, and its origins in Europe, the near east and Arabia.

An alternative is to expand the Ceremonial magic article, but I'm aware that term has some quite specific implications.

Any thoughts? Fuzzypeg☻ 23:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you are onto a good idea. I'll check the literature again for distinguishing points. Being concise will help as that will allow sections to be used in both articles or for links to be made between. AlanBarnet 01:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

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