Talk:Macedonian

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[edit] What's to dispute here?

What the hell is to dispute here? It's just stating facts. You can't somehow not make the adjective not apply to something just because you don't like that something. The meanings have entered standard usage, like the negative implication of "hacker" for example, or the spelling "Hapsburg". Just because it's "wrong" that doesn't make it go away. --Shallot 13:52, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It's just Vergina on his mission to delete all references to Macedonia that refer to the Slav country rather than the Greek province. Very tiresome behaviour. -- ChrisO 18:50, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy and NPOV

In case that someone wonders why is this disambiguation page is inaccurate and non-NPOV: It doesn't mention the national group of Macedonians. Instead, it speaks only about Macedonian Albanians, Macedonian Aromanians, Macedonian Bulgarians, Macedonian Greeks, and Macedonian Slavs. The last group is apparently intended to include Macedonians, it is not clear, however, whether it also includes Bulgarians and Serbs living in this area. -- Naive cynic 18:22 26 August

I am sorry, I don't really get your point. Macedonians are called in Wikipedia Macedonian Slavs and in the article Macedonian Slavs, it is explained that the people themselves call themselves Macedonians and are called both Macedonians and Macedonian Slavs. So revert the totally disputed. For the time being VMORO 11:13, August 27, 2005 (UTC)~
Perhaps it's explained there, but it isn't here. How someone looking for information about Macedonians is supposed to find it? -- Naive cynic 14:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Naive cynic, this disambiguation page probably has all the wiki-links available for Macedonians, so that anyone looking information about Macedonians can check the links to understand all the uses of the term Macedonians. The Republic of Macedonia (sic) is mentioned in the Geography section. I'm guessing your argument is about the citizens of that country, so instead of putting the totalydisputed tag I think you should suggest a description for the Macedonian Slavs wiki-link, perhaps something about their citizenship. I don't think you can put a totalydisputed tag here, if you just don't like the term of that wiki-link, see Talk:Macedonian Slavs. MATIA 09:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
No, I'm talking about the national group. This is a different concept from citizens of RoM, since several other nationalities, such as Albanians, Gypsies, or Serbs, live in RoM, and since many Macedonians live also in neighboring countries. As for the dispute tag, I have put it, of course, to ask for a discussion. I'm not sure why is information about Macedonians being removed from the disambiguation page. While I somewhat understand Greek unhappiness on the existence of this term, it is still does exist, is widely used, and it hasn't been invented by RoM. Could you explain it? -- Naive cynic 20:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Well it's a long ugly story. I could tell you what I think and try to present the pov's of the parties involved but I think it would be better to check the related discussions on the talk pages that this disambig page links to. Try Talk:Macedonian Slavs and then come and discuss at Talk:Macedonia. MATIA 21:53, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
You might want to check the history of this wiki, in its current form it looks like the version by ChrisO, one of the admins who tried in the past to help with this issue, with the addition of the macedonian dynasty and the greek idiom. MATIA 22:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I already have some knowledge of the convoluted history of Macedonia-related names. Probably more that is safe for my strained sanity, at least. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I know what you mean. MATIA
Are your tags related to the 211.29.242.115 guy? MATIA
I don't know him, I fear. -- Naive cynic 07:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
I meant if his changes led you that this article is inacurate. MATIA 08:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
And now we have the 203.23.27.1 guy. I 'm wondering if he shares the opinion of 211.29.242.115 that the Greek part of the region Macedonia needs to be liberated. MATIA 11:17, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Yes he expressed his unhistorical pov before. MATIA 11:24, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Person, place or thing

In grammar school, they told me that a "noun" is a "person, place or thing". Maybe this will help us. Here's a table I'm trying to develop:

Macedonian people(s) Macedonian lands Macedonian languages
The group which Greeks call Skopjans (from the capital city of the Republic of Macedonia) or "Macedonian Slavs" (is this a name this group likes to have applied to them? A) - see Macedonians (ethnic group) the region in general: Macedonia (region) The modern (Slavic) Macedonian language
2.5million Macedonian Greeks The Greek region of Macedonia: Macedonia (Greece) The Macedonian idiom of Modern Greek
Aegean Macedonia (see also ancient Macedon) The Ancient Macedonian language, see also Macedon
The Bulgarian region of Macedonia, also known as Pirin Macedonia

Note A: Macedonian Slavs is NOT the name this group wants to have applied to them. That is a name which Greece wants to put on to these people. They are Macedonians, in this case, Macedonians (ethnic group). Bomac 16:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Bomac, I saw your answer: "NOT ... applied to them". I have modified the table above slightly, in response, but with your permission I'll keep the question open for a few more days. Uncle Ed 18:09, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Aegean Macedonia is a name applied to what you would call Greek Macedonia, and most of the time is associated with teritorial claims. It is not a name of Macedon (in Classic Greece it was called Macedonia plain-vanilla).
  • Mac. Slavs is not a name that the Greeks apply or want to force to those people. The Greeks usually calls them Skopjans (from their capital Skopje), and many Greeks don't want any usage of the M* word from our northern neighbours.
Have on mind that many Macedonians don't want to be called "Skopjans", because the people, for example, from Bitola are NOT "Skopjans" (and it isn't very logicall if you call them "Skopjans"), just like the people from Volos are not from Athens (Athinians). Bomac 19:09, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
You're right Bomac. I've just noted that most people in Greeks doesn't call your people Mac.Sl. or Mac. but they use the term Skopjans.+MATIA ☎ 19:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


Probably you should add the 2.5million Macedonian Greeks in the people column. And the RoM country in the lands. The lands of that modern country is a part of what you describe with the term Macedonia region (but it wasn't always part of the historical Macedonian region - this has been discussed somewhere before). +MATIA ☎ 21:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Most of the time, splitting the talk is indeed a bad idea. I'm conscious of that, and I've read Meatball's ForestFire article. But it's nice and peaceful on this talk page, so I'm just enjoying the chance to get into this issue slowly.
Sometimes a "divide and conquer" strategy works out well with this kind of conflict. I've mediated dozens of these at Wikipedia, over the last 3 or 4 years. (By the way, is "divide and conquer" from ancient Greece or ancient Rome? I forget which. Uncle Ed 04:07, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I think it was a Persian tactic ;) So you probably had in mind ancient Greece. I don't disagree with a peacefull place to gather clues but they are already scattered in about 10 talk pages. +MATIA ☎ 11:45, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
When it's scattered that widely, adding one more talk page won't make it worse. And I'm trying to use this one to being to tie it all back together. Is that okay? Uncle Ed 16:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
I don't mind that. I was unsure if you knew that they are scattered :)
+MATIA ☎ 16:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Proof of Greeks who recognise themselves as Macedonians: www.mpa.gr Miskin 09:57, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

That is not a proof. That is a link to a press agency that got that name quite recently, just in order to help the Greek propaganda over the name "Macedonia". Why that name was forbiten during the time of general Metaxas and you started promoting it in the late 1970s? Macedonian(talk) 01:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
FYI, Kostas Velidis, started the Macedonia newspaper in 1911. English link about the 90-years celebration http://www.hri.org/news/greek/mpab/2001/01-10-06.mpab.html#02
+MATIA ☎ 00:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
That is truth that the newspaper is present for 90 years. But, it did not have "Macedonia" included in its name untill some 20-30 years ago. Macedonian(talk) 04:14, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you believe it was renamed at the '70s? Have you read it somewhere? +MATIA ☎ 17:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
No, I do not beleive. I know. People were going in jail just because of mentioning the term "Macedonia" during the dictatorship of general Metaxas. Even after him, until recently.
Probably you would ask me to give you some source. So, I will. The lates one that is comming from a German (sounds quite neutral) expert. I already posted that here on Wikipedia, so please reffer to the following link: | Foss says minorities are Greek big lie. Macedonian(talk) 04:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I cannot understand what made you think that Metaxas prohibited the term "Macedonia". Check Macedonia newspaper's cover, March 1940 (perhaps you are aware about Metaxas refusal on October 28th of the same year). +MATIA ☎ 16:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
I am sure you are aware that Metaxas hate the Macedonians (ethnic group). Every use o the term was connected with these people, thereore everyone who used this term was having hard represions agiants him, including inprisonning the person. Macedonian(talk) 14:49, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Check the date of the newspaper. I assure you that Metaxas didn't imprisoned Vellidis or anyone else, and the Macedonia (newspaper) has nothing to do with your people. +MATIA ☎ 15:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, obviously I was mistaken with that one. But, I think you are aware that 2 facts stay:
1) the Macedonians (ethnic group) suffered a lot under Metaxas.
2) the name Macedonia was not so forced untill the 1980s. Actually, most of the moments of using the name Macedonia before that could and often was identified as just another try to prove the so called Greek property of the whole region.
The same thing was done (and still is) by the Bulgarians and by the Serbs (untill 1945th and during a couple of years at the beggining of the 1990s). Macedonian(talk) 00:34, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

This is getting too boring. 1) if they lived in Greece, they suffered the same as anyone else under that dictatorship 2) I gave you an example with that newspaper. I could provide more examples but you won't be convinced, so let's end it here. +MATIA ☎ 10:42, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I accepted your source as reliable. But, that does not change the fact of existance of strong represions against the Macedonians in Greece. Othervise, how come 1/3 of the Macedonians live outside the region Macedonia? Many of them with origin from Aegean Macedonia. Macedonian(talk) 01:18, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed extent

The extent of the kingdom of Macedon (considered as a strict territory, not the lands it ruled at different times) is disputed by historians because of the fragmentary evidence. The more sure thing is that Greek Macedonia is pretty much all (if not all) included in ancient Macedon. Ancient Macedon extended beyond that too, but how far north, for example, is disputed. I will detail this stuff in Paionia someday. After Philip's conquest, Paionia became a tributary/semi-independent kingdom with little independent power, but it is debatable whether one can say that that area was in Macedon, though parts of it seem to have become virtually Macedonian. When the Gauls invaded, the Paionians were still around as a separate force, but I'm not sure what independence they had. Macedon also lost parts of Paionia to the Dardani at different times. I have references for this stuff, though I'm writing from memory of past research right now. It is best to avoid saying "see Macedon for the ancient history of Macedonia (region)." Alexander 007 12:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to Philip II Macedon was well enclosed into Aegean Macedonia, check also the maps on the French article. Greek Macedonia is significantly bigger than Classical Macedon of Perdiccas III. Philip II's Macedon included parts of Thessaly, Illyria, Paionia and the Ionian colonies of Chalcidice (such as Stageira). Miskin 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The teritory of Macedon had different borders through the time. If we take the same beggining of Macedon, it would probably take only few brain cells in the brain of the first person who got the idea to unify the tribes that lived there.
According to me, any refference between modern teritories and Macedon can be seen as a POV push. Do not forget... more than 20 centuries passed since then. Why someone keeps ignoring that fact? Macedonian(talk) 04:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just a thought...

Why are the names in the form of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on? Shouldn't it be more like Albanian Macedonian, Bulgarian Macedonian, Greek Macedonian... After all, the places are called Greek Macedonia and Pirin Macedonia; not Macedonian Greece and Macedonian Pirin. Izehar 12:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

All concept of Macedonian Albanian, Macedonian Bulgarian, Macedonian Greek and so on is senceless and unsupported. It is a fact that (when talking about demography), no-one of them (except the ethnic Macedonians) identify their national feeling as Macedonian Greek, Macedonian Bulgarian... They all identify simply with: Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian...
I understand if we put a new paragraph "regionality" where we can include artificial names as these that you counted. But, not when talking about demography.
All this unreal naming of "Macedonian something" is made in order to satisfy the Greek nationalist, who think that they have exclusive right over the name "Macedonia". Macedonian(talk) 04:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It's very funny to talk about greek nationalists who think they have exclusive right over the name Macedonia while you have a tendency to deny that the Greek Macedonia was always called Macedonia, and the inhabitants are called Macedonians (and not Macedonians Greeks as they are labeled here). +MATIA ☎ 16:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)]

But, it was not always called Macedonia. You can not deny that the name Macedonia was even orbiten or years untill the 1980s. The same is conirmed by many relevant sources, including a amous Greman historian, Mr. Foss link of news from Deuche Welle. Macedonian(talk) 14:46, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect entries

The ethnic section of this disambiguation page is clogged with entries which have nothing to do with the function of the page to clarify, disambiguate and redirect to relevant pages. Whereas there is some sense in the case of Aromanians and to some extent in the case of M.Bulgarians and M.Greeks to be represented on the page as there are ethnographic, linguistic and cultural distinctions between them and other Bulgarians and Greeks and as they are referred to as "Macedonians" in the respective languages, such sense is TOTALLY absent in the other entries. Even with regard to Albanians - they do not refer to themselves in any context as to "Macedonians" and even talk about the portions of Macedonia which they inhabit as "Iliriada", there is no "Macedonian" ethnographic or linguistic group in the Albanian ethnicity. So, I am making a move to remove the superfluous disambiguations. VMORO 20:03, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to react here. The cases of some Bulgarian or Greek (talking about ethnicities here) that identify himself/herself as Macedonian are extremely rare. All of the Bulgarians and Greeks identify themselves clearly as that, Bulgarians and Greeks.
What happens with the Macedonians that live in Bulgaria and Greece? How will you distinct them? Macedonian(talk) 01:44, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

There are almost 2 and a half million people (I refer just to those who live in :Greek Macedonia") who self-identify as Macedonians, and wikipedia calls them "Macedonian Greeks". See also: A Controversy over the terms. +MATIA ☎ 16:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, you know that this is not truth. They reffer to themselves as Greeks, Thesaonikians, Kilkisians etc, but extremely rarely as Macedonians. Actually, they only do that as a confirmation of their claims for the name "Macedonians", but it is a fact that the use of this term is completely artificial for those people. I know this because I regularly have contact with Greeks rom that part. Actually, first time I heard this claim here on Wikipedia, no matter I am a personal riend with many people that live in that region. Macedonian(talk) 14:37, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Macedonian, Bulgarians and Greeks use the name "Macedonians" as a regional and ethnographic identification, and "Bulgarians" and "Greeks" as a national identifications. "Ethnic Macedonians" in the region use "Macedonians" as a regional identification, that's the way you distinguish between them.

Matia, what you say is not right: if the population of Greek Macedonia uses the name "Macedonians" as a national identification, then they are not Greeks, they are "Macedonians" (say a different type of Macedonians from the Slavic Macedonians) and should not be disambiguated to the Greek page. If the name "Macedonians" is used as a regional and ethnographic marker, which is my opinion, then the entry should not be in the Demographics section.

To all users: please, see the way disambiguation pages are constructed and stop writing nationalistic claptrap. In this format, the disambiguation page is not a disambiguation page but a free flight of fantasy. VMORO 14:32, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

VMORO, that is my point. If anyone uses the name Macedonian for himsels, but he is not a member of the Macedonian ethnicity/nationality, then he uses it as regional identification.
Now, explain me why can a Bulgarian use "Macedonian" as regional identification, but when a Macedonian (ethnic group) uses "Bulgarian", it can not be because of regional identification?
Why double standards?
Also, I think that you definitly do not know anything about the Albanians that live in R. of Macedonia, so you can not judge.
The Albanians in R. of Macedonia are often reffered by others and often reffer to themselves as "Macedonian Albanian". It is because of regional identification.
Here are some sources of that: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], UN source... enought?
So, stop removing my edit about this fact. I hate when someone is stubborn, but has no idea of the reality about some people, neighter has sources. I meet those people every single day, I definitly know more than your stubborn head on this issue. Macedonian(talk) 00:50, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I am afraid your first phrase (the one that ended with "then he uses it as regional identification") and your last paragraph (stuborn people etc) are around the problem. +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to ask anyone to provide a proof that some Greek or Bulgarian identifies as Macedonian, but a proof that is older than 15 years. This way we will exclude sources that are obviously motivated by the Macedonia-Greece dispute. Macedonian(talk) 01:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, the majority of the books that are in public domain (at least before 70 years) is an example... Or Pavlos Melas, a greek self-identifying as Macedonian... +MATIA ☎ 10:46, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Which books?
Pavlos Melas... a greek self-identifying as Macedonian... can you provide me a source which is older than 1991st and that confirms this?
Actually, this oppens another issue. What about the 1000s of Macedonians that presured by everyday represions, decided to leave their Macedonian origin and become Greek? Macedonian(talk) 01:22, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] question

What is the ethnicity of an "ethnic Macedonian" (who sometimes self-identify as a "Macedonian Slav")? +MATIA ☎ 19:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Firstable, the Macedonians never identify themselves as "Macedonian Slavs". I have said many times to you and I will do it once again. I think it is about time you to understand it and accept it.
Simple: when reffering to "Macedonian Slavs", the Macedonians understand "a member of a Slavic tribe who is ancestor of the modern Macedonians". Please understand it, or give a relevant source if you do not agree.
Answer to your question: His ethnicity is "Macedonian". If you read any definition of ethnicity, also the basic human rights, you would understand that the nationality of these people (including me) can only be "Macedonian" and nothing else. Othervise, several international laws and threaties are broken.
Also, it won't be a bad idea for you to search google for the word "Macedonian", excludong "Bulgaria" and "Greece". You would notice that this search gives at least 10 times more results than "Macedonian Slav" does (a search for "Macedonian Slav" that includes the members of the Slavic tribes from some 15 centuries ago).
I also would like to ask you something and I hope on your answer, same as I answered you.
What is the ethnicity of an Arvanite (who sometimes self-identifies as an Albanian)? I know a substantial number of them call them Albanians because a reliable source (Helsinki Report tells me so). Macedonian(talk) 00:59, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

You mix ethnicity, nationality and citizenship (three different but related terms). By the way, if you have read the related discussions before voting at Arvanitic language straw-poll, you would knew that Arvanites are ethnicaly Greek... And a hint: most historians use the term Slav in byzantine texts, historians from RoM use the term "Macedonian Slav". But you also deny that politicians from RoM have used sometimes that term, so perhaps there's no point in discussing the same things over and over again. +MATIA ☎ 10:51, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

No, I do not deny the usage of the term. I only explain what that term is used for here in Macedonia. A Macedonian Slav is a member of a Slavic tribe and and ancestor of the modern Macedonians. If I am lieing, I am ready to accept the consequences and be banned from Wikipedia for life.
I already asked you to make some investigation on this issue. I hope you will do that.
By the way, I clearly know the difference between Ethnicity, Nationality and Citizenship. The thing is that in my case (same as for 1,3 million Macedonians living in Republic of Macedonia) all of them are accompanied with one word only: Macedonian. Macedonian(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You're wrong +MATIA.

  • Ethnicity refers to a group of people with a common language, culture and supposedly ancestry – you are mixing it up with the Greek word εθνικότητα, but that in fact means nationality.
  • Nationality refers to the legal relationship between an individual and a state.
  • Citizenship refers to the rights and obligations of a national.

A good way to distinguish between these term is the existence of a state. Without a state, nationality and citizenship don't exist. Therefore, majority group of Greek Macedonia, identify ethnically as Greeks (as they have the same language as other Greeks, etc), they also identify nationally as Greeks and hold Greek citizenship, by virtue of their links with the Greek state. Greeks in America, are ethnically Greeks, but are American nationals and citizens - do you see the difference? The only way in which the Greek Macedonians can identify as Macedonians in the regional sense - just as I can say I am from Dublin, I am a Dubliner. I am not saying that I belong to a separate ethnic group called the Dubliners; I belong to the Irish ethnic group. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

With regard to the Arvanites, if they have their own language, history and culture as the article says, then they are not ethnically Greek; they are ethnically Arvanitic. They may be Greek citizens and nationals, but that is not the same thing. Self-identification with the Greek state stems from the Greek nationality, just as their political rights stem from their citizenship. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC) Quite simply, the only ethnic group which exists today and claims the name Macedonians as their ethnic identity are the ethnic-Macedonians. GrandfatherJoe (talk • contribs) 12:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that Greece does not recognize national minorities on their teritory. So, how can the one know how those people feel if they are not allowed to express their feelings? Macedonian(talk) 01:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A few examples

  • Македонска слава (Macedonian glory) - a soccer team from Blagoevgrad, currently in the A league
  • Македонският научен институт (the Macedonian Scientific Institute) - an institute established in the 1920s by refugees from Aegean and Vardar Macedonia, functioning today, as well
  • Macedonian dialects of the Bulgarian language - part of the Western Bulgarian dialects - can mean only the two main dialects in Pirin Macedonia, as well as all Slavic dialects in Macedonia (mostly in historical perspective)
  • Macedonian folklore/ethnographic region - in all sources about Bulgarian music or ethnography, the following division is adopted: северняшки (Northern = Moesian), шопски (Shop = region of Sofia), тракийски (Thracian, includes Thrace + refugees in other parts of the country), родопски (Rhodopian = the Rhodopes), добруджански (Dobrujan, includes Dobruja + refugees in other parts of the country), македонски (Macedonian, includes Pirin Macedonia + refugees in other parts of the country)
  • the Pirin Fest and Pirin Folk folklore festivals (held in Sandanski and Blagoevgrad) are called "festivals of the Macedonian song"
  • Македонска трибуна (Macedonian Tribune), a newspaper of Macedonian emigrants with Bulgarian self-consciousness in Canada written in the old alphabet

These are examples of people/organisations/entities which use the name Macedonian but are Bulgarian in their identity and self-identification. The name "Macedonian" is used as a regional/ethnographic qualifier and the identity "Macedonians" is a regional/ethnographic denomination, which has nothing to do with the ethnic/national "Macedonian(s)" regarding the population and culture of RoM. Macedonian Albanians, on the other hand, do not use the name "Macedonian" to describe themselves, they use the designation "Albanian" or sometimes "Illyrian" (f.ex. the Albanian university in Tetovo, etc.). The name "Macedonian Albanians" is furthermore used to refer to Albanians living in the Republic of Macedonia (likewise Bulgarian Turks for Turks living in Bulgaria) and it is used because they live in a republic called "Macedonia". It does not have ANY ETHNOGRAPHIC OR EVEN REGIONAL CONOTATION, pretty much like there is no "Bulgarian" dialect of the Turkish language or a "Bulgarian" ethnographic group of the Turkish ethnicity. Do you understand at last or what???

As for the "double standard": everything is described the way it is, you are the one who gives prescriptive evaluations. "Bulgaria" as a region is a synonym of Moesia. So can you explain to me how someone who was born in the geographical region of Macedonia will have a regional identification "Bulgarian" when the "region of Bulgaria" lies 300 km north of the northernmost part of Macedonia???

Plus, the name "Bulgarian" used by the Slavic population of Macedonia until the middle of the 20th century is scarcely a regional marker. Kuzman Shapkarev, for example, writes in "Bulgarian Primer" (1868) that "народността е най-скъпа на човека, а по народност той е българин, защото е роден от татко и майка българе и зборува български език" ("nationality is dearest for man and I am Bulgarian by nationality because I was born by a Bulgarian mother and a Bulgarian father and I speak the Bulgarian language") That much about regional identifications and the use of Bulgarian as a synonym of peasant Slav. VMORO 16:57, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] a note for Bomac

Do me a favour and don't revert the article. You say "Greeks aren't the only inhabitants of Macedonia", that's irrelavant with the fact that those Greeks self-identify for too many centuries (even if you don't know, or you can't believe it) as Macedonians, and has nothing to do with Macedonian Slavic people. +MATIA ☎ 13:17, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

What can be found in a misleading edit summary: 1) the kingdom of Macedon, if not anything else, is related to the Hellenistic period, 2) Macedonian idiom has very few things to do with Attic dialect, 3) this is a quest for the reader. +MATIA ☎ 18:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, MATIA.

  • There are some data that say that first Macedon was a kingdom of the Ancient Macedonians you know... That's why it isn't good to be only Hellenic (maybe smth. like Macedono-Hellenic).
  • Macedonian idiom is linked with modern Greek language, and as the table for the language says - Indo-European - Greek - Attic dialect - Modern Greek. Don't tell me that isn't that way or what... Regards, Bomac 18:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian idiom, is an idiom of modern greek. Attic dialect is a dialect of ancient greek. As for the Macedon, go and read about it (Herodotus, will be a good place to start), I'm not going to ruin the surprise now. I highly encourage you to revert your edits, yourself. +MATIA ☎ 18:36, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


* +There are some tribes in Pakistan and Avganistan, left there from the Alexander's conqueror times that identify themselves as Macedonians.
  • How should I know that Herodotus isn't a pirate-edition (falsification)? :-) Bomac 18:42, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
+ There are some facts that say that today's Greeks are not descendants of the Ancient Greeks. Familiar? Bomac 18:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess you are trying to make humour with the last two comments. You could read Herodotus, Isocrates, Demosthenes, or you could read Alexander the Great and search the references of that article. Kalas and other tribes in that places are interesting, but neither that argument nor the previous justify your edits. You should at least partially revert yourself. +MATIA ☎ 18:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

If you thought on "A (greek) Macedonian", I think is good to know for which Macedonian is talking about. Plus, it's the same like (bulgarian) Macedonian. Maybe not in Greece, but certainly in other countries it is called "Greek Macedonian" (I don't mind this refference). Regards, Bomac 19:04, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I kept part of your edit and reverted those that were unjustified. Insted of blind reverting it again, please try to read the list and analyse here, what should be changed and why. +MATIA ☎ 19:25, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Well MATIA, if you constantly write only Macedonian for a Greek Macedonian, then I think that Macedonian shuld be for the ethnicity, too (without the prefix "modern"). Your comment please? Regards, Bomac 20:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

copy-paste:

  • A (modern) Macedonian, sometimes referred to as a "Macedonian Slav" - see Macedonians (ethnic group)
  • A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks

One would expect that you would be more than satisfied with the "move in one night" of Macedonian Slavs to Macedonians (ethnic group). I've pointed out before that this renaming gives disambiguation problems. Please don't push it any further.

The people who you and Wikipedia refer to as "Macedonian Greeks" used the terms Macedonians (ancient: Makedon, modern: Makedonas, plural form: Makedones). The (plain vanilla) term Macedonian has been used for those people in English a lot time before people of RoM. The term Slav Macedonian or Macedonian Slav has been used by people of RoM during the last decades, so (Slav) Macedonian would be more appropriate than (Modern) Macedonian. The Greeks always used just the term Macedonian, in the present and in the past. Please do let it alone. +MATIA ☎ 21:57, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

No, MATIA. Today's Macedonians declare themselves as Macedonians, and not Macedonian Slavs. That's it, you can't name them whatever the greek politics want. Bomac 13:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I have lived in Greece for eleven years and I know certain things.

  • No Greeks call themselves Macedonians - I don't know where that came from. They don't call themselves Macedonian Greeks or Greek Macedonians either. They call themselves Greeks, that is the only term used.
  • Macedonian is not used to describe the Greek dialect of Macedonia (of which there are many). It is called Greek.

Of course what I am saying is open to rebuttal if evidence can be produced. Rex(talk) 14:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

comment: Any public domain book (aka older than 100 years) that uses the term Macedonian describes a Greek who lives in Macedonia. Later english sources may also describe a Bulgarian in the area. The rest can be easily read at Macedonia (region) and Demographic history of Macedonia. +MATIA ☎ 17:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Evidence please? How do I know that what you are saying is true? Rex(talk) 17:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

A note to MATIA: Please stop bullying Bomac and making personal attacks (it's a violation of your PA parole. Bomac, if MATIA makes more personal attacks, don't hesitate to report him). The "move in one night" as you offensively put it, was a valid move. As I have said, Wikipedia:Naming conflict applies until a good reason is found why this case should be treated as an exception. When a good reason is found *yeah like that's gonna happen*, then the issue can be reopened. I am of the opinion that if Britannica, The CIA World Factbook, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, The Macmillan Encyclopedia, Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, The Companion to British History, Ethnologue and the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia can all recommend the usage of the name Macedonians, who are you to say otherwise? Are they all POV pushing as well? Have you considered that all those reliable sources are right and you are wrong? I think that that's more likely. Rex(talk) 14:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

You can always RFC me REX and you'd betted do that the next time, instead of calling me indirectly a liar. I gave some good advices to Bomac regarding my ugly experiences from our ArbCom case. Your personal feeling for me are not a good enough reason to encourage Bomac (as you have done before) to violate WP policies and guidelines. I'm really sorry to hear such news from you. Btw, CDThieme got caught using 5 or more different accounts. Crime doesn't pay, as you would say in english. +MATIA ☎ 17:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Wow! An attempt to change the subject! Nice try :-) Let's get back to our original question: what evidence is there to support those claims that the Modern Greek-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia (Greece) call themselves Macedonians? I know as a fact that they don't, but you somehow are asserting that the Greeks always used just the term Macedonian, in the present and in the past. Nice theory, but is there any evidence? No. The fact that the RoM people call themselves Macedonians is backed by evidence (Britannica, The CIA World Factbook, The Columbia Encyclopedia, The Harvard Dictionary of Music, Philip's Encyclopedia, The Macmillan Encyclopedia, Crystal Reference Encyclopedia, Penguin Encyclopedia of Places, The Companion to British History, Ethnologue and the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia). Therefore we can call them Macedonians. Unfortunately, because of the lack of sources, we cannot say what [you say above. Maybe you should try and find some sources *snigger* Rex(talk) 17:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

These have been listed before http://www.mpa.gr is an example. Your personal feelings for me are not a part of this article, or this article's discussion page. If you want to, you may re-open our ArbCom case. +MATIA ☎ 17:48, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Another attempt to change the subject, Gee! Allow me to point out something; Μακεδονικό Πρακτορείο Ειδήσεων uses the word Μακεδονικό. That is an adjective that refers to objects, not people. If they used the word Μακεδόνας to refer to a modern Greek-speaking person, then that may back your claim. That may be overlooked by someone who does not know Greek, but thankfully I do. Μακεδονικό refers to objects and in this case, Μακεδονικό Πρακτορείο Ειδήσεων means Macedonian Agency of News, a News Agency is not a person. The word Μακεδονικό is identifying its location in this case. Of course I am willing to alter my beliefs if you can provide an example of how the word Μακεδονικό can refer to a person. I know we can Μακεδονικός χαλβάς, but again, that's not a person. What other examples do you have? You say these have been listed before (sic). Do you have an example which uses the word Μακεδόνας (Macedonian) to refer to a modern Greek person? This is what we are trying to prove after all. I think that that is an inaccuracy in the article. That Macedonian can refer to: A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks (sic). That is a tremendous falsehood, and I insist on evidence that Makedonas is used to refer to Greeks today. The regional name of a news agency is seriously lacking. If you can find a link to a reliable source which uses the word Makedonas to refer to a Modern Greek person, that will constitute sufficient evidence. Wikipedia must not promote falsehoods. Rex(talk) 18:24, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't have to proove the obvious (and proven by others in the past). Read Macedonia (region). +MATIA ☎ 18:59, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

MATIA, the neutrality and factual accuracy of that article are disputed. Are you reffering to disputed (POV) sources?!? Bomac 23:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Evasion, a well-known tactic. Well, I'm afraid your bluffing is not going to help you here. There is nothing on Macedonia (region) that suggests that any modern Greeks call themselves Macedonians. Also, to answer your statement, you do have to prove the obvious. According to Wikipedia policy you have to prove everything. Thus far, nothing has been proved, despite regular requests. Rex(talk) 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

I have added the "disputed" sign to the article as I am disputing something. The article claims that "Macedonian" can refer to:

  • A Macedonian (Makedonas), sometimes referred to as a "Greek Macedonian" - see Greeks

No sources have been provided to support this claim. I would like to challenge the defenders of this wording (which I know to be false) to cite appropriate sources. If they fail to do so, I'm afraid that reference will have to be removed. Luckily, a yahoo search for either the exact phrase "Greek Macedonians" or "Macedonian Greeks" proves that those terms are widely used [6]. Therefore, I have also removed that false note. Rex(talk) 20:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Your claims do not justify the removal of the html comment. The term "Greek Macedonian" is artificial. The wiki articles I've mentioned before, proove that the greeks use that term. I'll wait for an admin to deal with your recent behaviour. +MATIA ☎ 20:56, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Again, no counter arguments. The html note said: "Macedonian Greek" and "Greek Macedonian" are two exonyms created specially for wikipedia. It was not created especially for Wikipedia. West Chester University of Pennsylvania seems to refer to the area as "Macedonia" and the people as "Macedonian Greeks" [7]. Who woulda thunk it! Rex(talk) 21:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well you prooved that the Greeks are Macedonians (or the Macedonians are Greeks). Did you knew it before you put the disputed tag, or you just find that out? +MATIA ☎ 21:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been following this discussion for quite some time, and I appears that Rex does have a point. Without sources, you cannot add unsourced info. Izehar (talk) 21:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well Izehar, you just vandalised this article, and broke your "I'm staying neutral in controversial topics" statement. If you want sources check the articles I've previously mentioned. Do revert yourself by the way. +MATIA ☎ 21:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I reverted myself - sorry for butting in like this, but the evidence all seemed to point in this direction. It is one of my firm beliefs to remain neutral on controversial issues. I'll check out your links. Izehar (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's a source Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece, Mr Martis also has more documents available. (Thanks for the revert Izehar) +MATIA ☎ 21:43, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

All right, let's drop the imaginary sources and get down to facts. You are so confident that those articles contain evidence that Modern Greeks in Macedonia call themselves Macedonians. Can you copy-paste some specific sections? I'm afraid I can't find any. Rex(talk) 22:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Your term "imaginary sources" is offending me and if I remember correctly it was discussed in our ArbCom case. Please read the sources and the related wiki articles. Thank you. +MATIA ☎ 22:02, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I've read them. In no place does it say that Greeks in Macedonia call themselves Macedonians. Could you please copy-paste the relevant sections (that is assuming they exist and you are not mistaken). Rex(talk) 22:11, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

A man from Albania is called "an Albanian". A man from Macedonia (Μακεδονία) is called "a Macedonian" (Μακεδόνας). I don't know what else to tell you about it. +MATIA ☎ 22:18, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Would I be right in saying that the term "Μακεδόνας" is only applied to Greeks from Macedonia? Would it be applied, for instance, to inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia, or to Slavic Macedonians in Greece? -- ChrisO 22:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Those Greeks call themselves Macedonians. In ancient greek (and katharevousa) it is singular form Μακεδών plural form Μακεδόνες. In modern greek (δημοτική νεοελληνική) it is singular Μακεδόνας, plurar Μακεδόνες. In english singular Macedonian plural Macedonians. The term "Slavic Macedonians" is translated into "Σλαβομακεδόνες". While "Slavomakedones" is used sometimes, the term Skopjans (Σκοπιανοί) is used more often, or sometimes "inhabitants of FyRoM (ΠΓΔΜ)". The (new) naming policy should be applied to Greek people too. And the disambiguation guidelines should treat everyone equally. +MATIA ☎ 22:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Macedo-Romanians

If this was not clear, "Macedo-Romanians" is simply an abbreviation of "Macedonian Romanians". While at the moment, the most common term is Aromanians, the term is still used by some people. Some even use the "Macedonian Romanians" form. http://www.farsarotul.org/nl10_3.htm bogdan 22:38, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] extra text that isn't helpful shouldn't be added

This is not a political issue. The point is, how are people going to find the articles they are looking for? If it's called FYROM, and someone is looking for the place, they don't care why. Put the Why on the page itself, not the dab page. The dab page has only one purpose, to help people find the right article from among those that share the same or similiar names. Tedernst | talk 19:47, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Illogical dabpage

Please read up on what a dabpage is actually supposed to be. It's not supposed to be any kind of dictionary entry, and it's certainly not supposed to be a battleground for ethnic or nationalist POV-fights. I've cleaned it up from irrelevancies and I urge you to keep any factual additions to a minimum; they belong in the articles linked from here, not in this page.

And please don't add links to geographical entities, since "Macedonian(s)" can't possibly directly refer to any type of Macedonia.

Peter Isotalo 12:40, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The previous format of the page provides a better insight into the problem, you haven't explained yet why the categorisation of the different uses of the term is necessarily something bad. The POV/nationalist fights have nothing to do with the format of the article, they'll continue in this format, as well. You have erased half the entries on top of it - the ones from the geographical section. VMORO 10:31, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
You don't need either a TOC or categorization to list a handful of links. It just clutters up the page. And the reason that I've removed all the geographic links is very simple: "Macedonian" can not refer to any place at all unless it is used as an adjective. And since we're not a dictionary, listing adjectives isn't relevant in the least. See French, Chinese and German for examples. Note the links to the PRC and ROC has been smoothly inserted in the descriptions rather than trying to disambiguate them from a term they can't actually be confused with (as is done here). Dabpages are navigational aids that are supposed to help readers sort out articles that, without disambiguation, would have identical titles. Not to provide a general collection of links to a loosely defined topic. I.e. at least three articles listed here could be named just "Macedonian"; Macedonians (ethnic group), Macedonians (religious group) and Macedonian language, but not Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Greek Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia or just any article title containing the word "Macedonia".
Peter Isotalo 18:03, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Theathenae's edits

Oddly enough, I'm surprised to find some good edits by Theathenae. I have added a clarification to the geography section, as the term 'Macedonian' cannot mean 'Macedonia'. What I would like to know however, is why do you say that the ethnic Greeks of Aegean/Greek Macedonia call themselves 'Macedonians' or 'Makedones'? I have lived in Greece for 11 years and I know that the call themselves 'Greeks' or 'Ellines', not 'Makedones'. I know that they call the region 'Makedonia', but I have seen no evidence so far, that it can refer to the people as well. Do you think you could present your source? Rex(talk) 14:58, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation page cleanup

I've cleaned up this disambiguation page. Could everyone here please make sure that they've read Wikipedia:Disambiguation to ensure that they understand the requirements? Specific points I'd like to highlight are:

  • The disambiguation page should include only the information that is required to disambiguate the term. Including Greek language terms isn't necessary - it's the English terms that are being disambiguated, not the Greek ones.
  • There should be only one link per disambiguated term and it should go from the term to the relevant article.
  • The link should use the name of the linked article or something as close as possible to it, not a piped link. Hence "Macedonian ethnic group" for "Macedonians (ethnic group)", "region of Macedonia" for "Macedonia (region)", etc.

In addition, because of the repeated revert warring and vandalism from anonymous users that seems to accompany any article mentioning the M******** word, I've semi-protected the page. New and unregistered users won't be able to edit it. Hopefully this will reduce some of the disruptive editing we've seen here recently. -- ChrisO 22:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bewildered

I am bewildered at your conversation! This is why:

  • Big portion of southern Macedonia was cut off and added to Greece in the 2nd decade of the 20-the century - pure historical fact.
  • The people living there were for the most part ethnic macedonians simp - that area has been part of Macedonia for about 2600 years (or maybe even more)- yet another fact.
  • It is false to assume that they ever refered to themselves as 'greeks'. Some extremely minor exceptions might have done so, but that doesn't caracterise a whole ethnic group!!!
  • Even if someone did refer to himself as a greek, and yet they are genetically macedonian, we need little mental effort to understand that they are actually not greeks, whatever they may say - genetics is stronger than feeings. The right to declare yourself as of whatever nationality you wish is purely a socio-political tool for solving minority/majority conflicts and has nothing to do with reality, with which we are concerned here as this is an encyclopedia.
Since all of thease premises are supported by an enormous number of historical evidence and the opposite oppinion by almost zero, I conclude my exposition here by being bewildered at what you are on about all the time.

I understand that both sides cling on to their own viewpoint because they were thaught like that at school, by their parents, grandparents, friends etc. One gets attached to what means to oneself which is the people around you, your relatives and whatever is dear to you. That is of course not a reason to be stubborn. The world is not going to fall apart if somethnig is otherwise then I or you thought.

  • Besides, no one even touches on the question of the origin of the present greek nation, which is a separate topic altogether. There is also an unaccountable number of historical evidence to attest to the kind of amalgamation I consider the greeks to be as a nation. But don't get me started on that.--Bjankuloski06en 06:33, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Connected?

Connected is not the right word to use here, it is not idiomatically correct English. Second - birth and descent, those do not preclude people that were born elsewhere to move to the region and identify themselves with that region. FunkyFly 19:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. I have reworded it a bit. Personally, I dislike the term "Macedonian Greeks" so I removed that and added "Macedonian Slavs" instead (to avoid the monopolisation that the Greeks so fear :P). The "ethnic" prefix is taken from the article on the Bosnians. There are three major ethnic groups in Bosnia, Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats and (Bosnian) Bosniaks (ethnic Bosnians). As the heading here says that Macedonian can refer to any of these people, then there is no point in saying that Macedonian refers to a Macedonian. This is a disambiguation page - we are not supposed to confuse readers. --Latinus 19:31, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
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