Talk:Mace Windu/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Note: I removed all of the comment of Mace Windu being alive from this talk page when I archived it was just spam because George Lucas said he was dead so please don't bring it back up it might end up with people vandalizing the article saying he is alive. thank you--Team6and7 22:25, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Contents

Cite needed

"Mace Windu was outnumbered by Gank killers. Master Windu said only three words, "It's your decision," placing his hand on his Jedi weapon. Each of the thugs lowered their weapons and surrendered. This is a tale Mace Windu would neither confirm nor deny."

Is there a canonical source for this, or is it original research? --Skyraider 16:12, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

The quotation has since been updated and cited as from Shatterpoint, but Amazon appears to have the entire text of that novel online, and I could not find any part of that quotation in that text. Other web sites (aside from Wikipedia and Wikiquote, which cite Shatterpoint) cite it from The New Essential Guide to Characters. Amazon does NOT have the full text of that book, so I can't search it for a reference. Powers 02:33, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Style redundancy

Does "However, Anakin Skywalker intervened and severed Mace's hand, leaving Palpatine to finish Mace off and confirming Anakin's place as Darth Vader at Palpatine's side. Mace was then attacked by a conflicted Anakin Skywalker to which Palpatine used Force Lightning to blast him out of the Chancellor's office window." sound redundant to anyone? --Stilroc


Overemphasization.

"Before this he tried to convince Anakin to kill Palpatine."

I think that this is just overemphsizing on the fact that a conflicted Anakin Skywalker severs Mace's right hand. I think that it should be omitted. --A.J. 15:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


Peter David mention

I don't know why it was there, but there was a reference in the article something to the effect of "many fans speculate (including Peter David) that Mace survived his fall".

I have no idea who Peter David is and I consider myself a fairly knowledgeable Star Wars fan. I read his Wikipedia article (which was linked here) and saw that he is a writer of comic books and Star Trek novels- neither of which being even remotely related Star Wars. I don't see any reason why he deserves the seemingly arbitrary mention here, so I edited it out. --DB

Peter David is a writer. He mostly does comics (Spiderman, Hulk) and wrote some novels, I believe. --Kross 14:57, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)


Only Jedi with different colored Lightsaber?

The article says that Mace is the only prequel Jedi whose lightsaber blade isn't green or blue. But officially, doesn't Plo Kloon have a yellow blade? I've seen references to at least one yellow saber being visible at Genonosis, though I've not made any effort to specifically look for them.

not even offical site talks about it, which source are you refering to?
In the Movie AOTC, if you look at the background Jedi, they have: Blue, Green, Yellow, Mace's Purple, and an Orange-tint/white mixed lightsabers, and the Mace Lightsaber toy you can buy at Toys "R" Us has the hilt of Plo Kloon's Lightsaber, with a Purple blade not the Gold plated hilt that Mace has (dam Lucas/Hasbro Toys for not making the corect Hilt:-)).
Kit Fisto also once had an orange lightsaber, according to Wikipedia.

Technically, although other Jedi had different colors, Windu's was the only unusual colored one seen in the theatrical movies by the audience.

Windu's deal with the devil?

"Grievous was injured by Mace Windu who used a Force grip attack on his chest, which crushed the metal around his organs and caused Grievous to gain his coughs heard throughout Revenge of the Sith."

How could Windu use a Force Grip if in no event a Jedi should be allowed to use such powers that harm or injure others? I only know that Sith uses Force Grip (Vader) and Force Lightning (Tyranus and Sidious). A Sith and/or Fallen Jedi Desann using Force Grip/Choke would be OK with me, but Windu to "Force Choke" Grievous is out of the question IMO. Why would a Jedi use Force Grip? — Vesther 22:13, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I do not have a source at hand, but I believe that Jedi CAN use dark side powers. The drawback, of course, is that they court the dark side in doing so. Mace Windu, it seems, is somewhat closer to the dark side than most Jedi, as evidenced by his lightsaber duel style and symbolically by his lightsaber color. That is possibly a moot point, however, if the citation is mistakenly calling a force push by the name of force grip. I suspect that to be the case. --Luis Dantas 03:01, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
This is supported by EU works, that say Jedi can draw upon the Dark side, and its powers (like KOTOR, or the Dark Side Sourcebook). I disagree on the specific power- I think it was in fact a force crush, as shown in KOTOR II, which would compress the internel organs, plausibly doing the kind of damage Grievous suffered from. --Maru (talk) Contribs 04:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
It's also possible that the power could have been a Force Strike, although Force Crush is also a good candidate. I doubt a simple Force Push would suffice. -- Solberg 01:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

Uhh people? Grievous was a robot with a living person's (formerly) mind. Isn't it possible that he simply had a cough as a human and kept it as a habit after he became a robot. Or maybe he smoked and his lungs weren't cleaned before placed in the droid. Just a suggestion. --70.105.68.30 02:12, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

NO watch the CLONE WARS CARTOON, MACE IN THE LAST FIVE EPISODES LEADING UP TO ROTS CRUSHES GRIEVOUS BODY TO HELP ANOTHER JEDI!!!!!!!!!
I was just speaking hypothetically. --68.238.12.8 03:13, 3 October 2005 (UTC) (sorry my IP address changed)

DO NOT TRUST THE CLONE WARS CARTOONS! They are inconsistent with the Star Wars canon. Grievous has a cough because his lungs were damaged during the transfer into his cybernetic body, and frankly I'm not surprised. Besides, I love Grievous' cough. It's the icing on the cake. It finishes off his character. Lovin the coughin.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.210.31.168 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC).

Mace Windu

So where is it mentioned that Mace Windu is on par or close to the abilities of Yoda? I understand why people would argue that Yoda is considered one of the most powerful jedi in the Star Wars universe, as this is mentioned often in the films, but where could I find references to the greatness of Windu?


The "Korun" Master

I've heard him called this several times in the Ep. III novelization by Matthew Stover. What does it mean? --OneWeirdDude 01:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

He's refering back to his previous book, Shatterpoint, where it's established that Mace Windu is a Korunnai, from Haruun Kal. --LtNOWIS 20:29, 25 August 2005 (UTC)


I have an idea for a new story!

The adventures of Mace Windu and Han Solo! You know, like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. Yeah. That way we take all the crap out of Star Wars and only keep what's really, really good. --216.184.121.161


== Count Dooku? == According to the Star Wars databank, only Yoda and count Dooku were the only ones that have bested Mace Windu. Why is count Dooku's name omitted from the article? I could remember that the count's name was mentioned in earlier editions of the article.


Feint, or deliberation?

This is about that image that's labeled "Feint, or deliberation?"

I'm not that much of a Star Wars fan, so please excuse me if this has ever been pointed out on a Star Wars site, but...

When Mace does that spin and it seems to leave him obviously open, if the Emperor advanced on him, he could have been exposed to an easy counter (easy depending on how good Mace was) and if Mace was using the spin as a "fakeout" to make him advance. I've seen several martial art matches where someone makes an elaborate turn as a feint. The Emperor's blade was not in immediate swinging range, so he couldn't have him Mace without moving forward a bit...

Just an observation of mine; although give that this is a movie, maybe I'm putting too much realism into the thought.

You definitely are :). As I recall, Nick Gillard wrote a little essay after ROTS came out, where he pointed out a number of other unlikely and unrealistic moves in the choreography (in fact, I think he even mentioned the constant spinning as one of them), and said that from a real perspective, they'd lose very quickly. --Maru (talk) Contribs 17:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Something that should be kept in mind when reviewing the Mace v.s. Sidious duel is that originally Gillard, according to the DVD commentary of Episode III, was planning to have stunt doubles do all the work. When Lucas found this out (a bit too late), he told Nick "no" and told him to teach Ian and Sam everything-- Lucas allegedly wanted an "upclose" duel with the faces of both the protagonist and the antagonist in very clear view, and although digital imagery replacement has become fairly advanced, it wouldn't look as realistic. So Ian and Sam learned a lot of their choreography late in the movie, and so they didn't get too much practice. This in part explains why the Mace v.s. Sidious duel looks "fishy" to some people. It's not just the spinning, spins are fine, it's when you do them that matters and the timing in the duel doesn't seem that accurate, again because of what I already mentioned. Maybe if someone has time later, they can add a section to the Mace v.s. Palpatine debate with a direct quote from the DVD commentary on this. -- Solberg 19:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

Judging from Mace's facial expressions, I'm guessing he didn't plan on drawing in Palpatine's blade that close to his chest. He looks almost as if he's thinking "Whoa, I'm done for. Wait er... why aren't I dead?". At that moment, Mace's blade was at his side facing downward; he was completely open to a killing thrust, he would have been limp as a ragdoll by the time he even tried to swing at Palpatine if the Chancellor lunged to run him through. Also, if you watch closely, Palpatine has his saber to the side and stalls at one point snarling, allowing Mace enough time to kick him in the face. If Palpatine was legitimately disarmed, he would have dropped the saber immediately due to shock. Instead, he threw his arms up first and then tossed it out the window. At this point, he could have either jumped to the side or taken another saber from one of the other fallen Jedi through the Force. He didn't though, and hastily scrambles to the edge of the window pane before Anakin arrives to set the scene.

You're reading into the choreography a bit too much. See my above post. Quite frankly, I find the seriousness people have in discussing this scene to be amusing, they're treating it as though it actually happened, like Sam and Ian are actually supposed to be level 9 swordsmen. (Sheesh.) Keeping it real is the key. Why did Yoda draw/lose to Palpatine for example? Simple. If Palpatine died, there would be no Episode IV as we know it. Why did Palpatine 'toss' his lightsaber out the window instead of "being realistic" and dropping it on the floor during the confrontation with Windu? Duh, if he dropped it on the floor, he'd be able to Force-pull it back to his hand immediately, meaning that the plot would have Palpatine and Windu still fighting for real when Anakin comes in-- I don't think Lucas wanted that. There must be a compromise between 'reality' in SW and what the story can afford. -- Solberg 23:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

Even treating the duel realistically, the argument does not hold because Palpatine can't Force-pull the lightsabers of the fallen Jedi, because they're in the other room. (Pay attention, the duel shifts from one room to another when Windu is forced back.) In fact, treating the duel realistically is not what most people have been doing so far anyway. Both Sam and Ian didn't fight all that great. Flashy stuff yes, but poor defenses, leaving themselves open too often. The only (pretty hilarious) difference is that fans excuse the latter's poor swordplay because he wins in the end, while Mace doesn't; much of the support for Palpatine "letting Mace win", IMHO, in the end is just a superficial judgment based on the outcome of a duel rather than its objective content. (OMG I'm gonna write a thesis on this. Not.) -- Solberg 23:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

This entire debate pertains to in-universe subject matter. The making of the film, and way in which Samuel L. Jackson and Ian McDiarmid executed their moves makes no difference. Yes, Palpatine and Mace are actually "level 9" swordsmen; of course Ian and Sam can't use the Force and fight like that in reality during shooting, but they're actors and we aren't discussing actors. Save your sarcasm for a message board where it belongs. Yes, the duel switches from Palpatine's chamber to the hall leading up to the main office, so? The doors were kept open the entire time, and drawing the lightsabers to your person is as easy as throwing pebbles with the Force.

I'm just pointing out simple truths, that while obvious like you said, just aren't getting noticed or fully understood by some people. My previous post notes that *Sam and Ian* are not level 9 swordsmen. I never said Palpatine and Mace aren't. They are, in the SW universe. The actors playing them are not. That is the simple point that many are missing that I had to point out, and it seems you just missed it again. I wouldn't point it out otherwise. It should be agreed that since *Sam and Ian* are not level 9 swordsmen, analyzing their choreography too intensely is ultimately misleading, especially to come to a conclusion that either Mace was really "feinting" or that Palpatine really "threw the fight." Because both's actors in fact made some serious errors, this isn't just an opinion but Nick's general observation as a swordmaster that most of the dueling in the movie was done more for entertainment's sake than how a real fight would have been conducted. -- Solberg 10:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

"This entire debate pertains to in-universe subject matter. The making of the film, and way in which Samuel L. Jackson and Ian McDiarmid executed their moves makes no difference."

Are you kidding? You're more or less just dismissing the movie's version of the fight here, what else are you drawing upon that's still "in-universe subject matter" for Episode III-- the novelization, the comic? Or are you going to just proceed and selectively pick out parts of the movie to be canonical ("really part of the fight") and others not?

To reply to your second point, Palpatine could get a lightsaber from the other room, but in time? It's arguable. Let us draw upon examples from the movies. Obi-Wan, no mere Jedi, during his duel with Anakin, pulls up his own lightsaber from the floor at one point. It's in the same room. It takes about two seconds to reach his hands. Vader, pulling a gun from Han Solo during Episode V, to his hands. About the same, maybe a bit less since it was already in Han's hands, not on the ground. Now take into account that not only would the fallen Jedis' lightsabers be on the ground, but they'd be in another room. Doing a Force pull for something that far would leave Palpatine defenseless for at least a few seconds, and would be hostile enough an action to give Mace a reason to immediately execute him. Anyway, I only do this analysis "seriously" because of your question. You have to realize though that all this analysis is ultimately a waste of time. In any setting with any sort of magic, there will always be plotholes. Why does Palpatine not do anything when the window shatters during the duel, for example? Why not Force-throw all the shards at Mace? Why doesn't Mace do the same, or take the opportunity to simply Force-push Palpatine out the window? Why? Because the other can counter with his own Force powers? Then why not if Palpatine attempts to pull the lightsabers? Mace can just hold them down with the Force, or kill Palpatine while he tries. -- Solberg 10:24, 24 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg


To Anon 67.86.24.126 : I am tired of your shenanigans. I won't stoop to your level of calling names, but I will say this-- your tactics are, at the very least, unethical. If you disagree with someone, that's fine. But flaming someone, then having your comments refuted, and then creating a new account to pretend to be a new user to "arbitrate" between yourself and the person you were arguing with (and of course siding with yourself immediately), is ridiculous. I'm deleting your additions. Feel free to add them back, but this time politely, and as a single person, the original one. Don't falsify an identity this time. Your tactic doesn't work unfortunately because wikipedia has a history page (surely you know this but forgot) so I can see quite clearly who "Exor" really is. I can also tell by clicking on your IP that you have contributed a great deal to wikipedia, and, at a quick glance, a lot of it is good stuff. So you're obviously not a troll, maybe just a bit short on temper. So in the interest of preserving real civility, not the false one you claimed earlier, first admit your mistake and apologize, and then argue without having to resort to unethical tactics. I am no particular fan of Windu, but you must convince me and other users on this talk page in a legitimate way. If you try pulling off a stunt like this again even after my two warnings, I'll just delete your post. Your viewpoint is as good as any other; resorting to an action as unsavory as what you just did simply cheapens your argument, don't you agree? As a first step to peace, I deleted the flame in your first post. I don't expect to see another again; I think you can be better than that. -- Solberg 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)Solberg

I admit to my error. To be frank, rather than what you perceive to be an underhanded tactic it was actually derivative of my mistake in failing to put my signature in the posts due to negligence. Not wishing to further any more conflict, I pulled this "stunt". I apologize, and I by no means wish to make a false effort. You are an astute individual, I am merely replying to the arguments presented; I have no quarrel with anyone, I was wrong to accuse you of anything.

Referring to the particular scene represented by the abridged gif file, I pointed out that early on in the duel, Palpatine has Mace in an exceedingly uncomfortable position where apparently the Chancellor could have ended the Master Jedi's career if he so chose. That is true, and regardless of whether or not Ian McDiarmid and Samuel L. Jackson executed their moves well, the scene is there. Fact of the matter is, both Nick and George included that scene for a purpose; it is perfectly within reason to assume that it wasn't just random swordplay. Therefore, thinking from a strictly within-universe perspective, this portion of the action can be legitimately used as an argument in support of the "Palpatine fought at a deliberate pace to throw the fight for an alterior motive" theory. While I'm sure people can dissect the movie frame by frame to find some nanosecond moment where Palpatine might have been open to a killing blow, there is no doubt that the segment Palpatine proponents are pointing to lasts for at least 2 whole seconds, a rather significant amount of time to lunge while your enemy is in complete shock. Arguments with simply a "It had to be done because that's the way things work out." do not often resolve these types of debates. Yoda lost to Palpatine because apparently he wasn't capable of defeating him, not because Lucas wanted him to lose. Within the Star Wars universe, George Lucas doesn't exist (unless you count Baron Papanoida, or Jorg Sacul), therefore didn't determine the outcome. If you interpret this as a "flame" I apologize, it is not an attack of any kind. --Exor 18:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC).

Alright, I see. So basically you just didn't sign in as Exor earlier, and later, trying to resolve the dispute more civily, signed in as Exor and attempted to be a '3rd person' who would argue more peacefully, to start afresh so to speak. That's fine then, although I would advise against trying to masquerade as more than one person in the future no matter what the intention-- it's easy to detect these things on wikipedia and these efforts can come off badly. And no, I don't regard your newest post as a flame, it's perfectly reasoned and well thought out. If you need an example of a flame, see the portion of your post I deleted in the history page.

Regardless, I agree with what you say about Mace's exposure to an attack and always have. My qualm is not with this, but the implications of accepting the SW Universe in the movies as separate from our reality. This results in a lot of random plotholes that can't be solved, such as why Obi-Wan seems a terribly weak fighter in comparison in Episode IV; age cannot be used as an excuse once we have seen such other old masters as Qui-Gon, Yoda, and Dooku. And this is relatively small potatoes in context of other numerous plot holes resulting from accepting the movies as completely perfect descriptions of what happened in the SW Universe. Regarding the lightsaber fight, there are several long moments where Palpatine himself could (should?) have been easily killed as well, not only Mace Windu. For instance, when Palpatine propels himself towards the four Jedi and impales Agen Kolar, he takes a good bit of time to fully pierce him, all the while with his back turned towards Saesee. If we perceive this from a solely in-universe perspective, it would appear that Saesee wasn't trying at all, or "threw the fight" so to speak (my tongue planted quite firmly in cheek with this comment as I don't believe either of them threw the fight.) I'm sure this could be excused by saying "Saesee was just surprised by Palpatine" or "Nah, Palpatine saw this in the future and knew Saesee wouldn't hit him in time" or something like this, but similar excuses could apply to Windu's situation as well. Because make no mistake, Windu, within the SW Universe, is usually considered only second to Yoda in skill during the Clone Wars. Furthermore, it's not quite clear if Lucas himself wants the movies to be considered a perfect description of the SW Universe. It *is* clear that they represent the highest level of canon, but 'perfect' canon? I'm not sure this is what Lucas intended; this part is certainly more debatable. Read, for instance, the page in Wikipedia about the Whills. I reproduce it here:

Whills

Whills are a vague reference to the relatively omnipresent, yet totally distant race that George Lucas planned to place the story-teller perspective on in an early draft of the Star Wars saga.

“Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else (an immortal being known as a Whill); there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the Journal of the Whills.” George Lucas

It was later revealed in the Making of Revenge of the Sith book that the Whills are indeed still part of the saga - the idea being that they are listening to the Star Wars story as related by none other than R2-D2. This interesting nugget of information supports Lucas's earlier claims regarding the droids' centrality in the context of the entire saga, even though Anakin Skywalker is largely considered to be the "main character."


One can see from this article that it's quite possible that the SW movies are not meant to represent with full accuracy and detail what exactly happened scene by scene in the SW universe, but rather R2D2's account-- perhaps a holographic reenactment, or some other type of recreation. The holographic reenactment bit is of course just speculation, but the rest of what I say is not.

Given what the article says however, one thing is certain, Star Wars, from a strictly within-universe perspective, came not from Lucas, but R2-D2!!

-- Solberg 23:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)Solberg


Hmm... interesting notion. Plotholes can always be retconned, but as for Saesee... poor choreography? ;) Seriously though, he must have either been hesitant to swing lest he accidentally hit Agen by accident, or have been shocked by Palpatine's moves. His Sith shriek or whatever that was could have had a temporary affect on their minds as well. --Exor 02:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Sith shriek / Force scream could explain things. Worrying about hitting Kolar on the other hand is a bit of a moot point.  ;) Besides the interesting piece of information on R2-D2, another possible reason (again, just possible, only Lucas himself can decide whether Palpatine dropped the fight or not) I think most people think Windu "really" won is because it lends more weight and credibility to Anakin's status as the Chosen One. Palpatine is the quintessential master planner but for him to have so much control over his own fate would "cheapen" Anakin's role to some extent. Instead of really saving Palpatine in Episode III and being a true bringer of the winds of change, Anakin would be relegated to being a mere pawn/stooge (even more so than before). Worse, if Palpatine could really defeat Windu and the other three, the implication would be that Anakin was not a necessary part of Sidious' plot all along, another thing that I believe is hard to mesh with conventional views.. My favorite argument so far though is still the one relating to the Whills article.

The whole reason as to why Palpatine went through all the trouble to get Anakin at his side is a tad ambiguous. It could be because he knew Anakin was to become the chosen one (as he states in the novelization), and wanted to be sure the boy's potential was to be kept under his thumb rather than used against him. Then you have the whole question as to why Palpatine would want to train apprentices anyway, especially given that by the time of ANH he was already planning on ruling the galaxy for over a thousand years. The Dark Lord novel attempts to shed a bit of light on this, subtly suggesting that Palpatine does such a thing for sport; perhaps merely to pay homage to the old tradition. Actually, having Palpatine in control all along makes Anakin's redemption at the end of ROTJ a lot more powerful, making his decision so much more climactic; finally breaking the shroud of darkness Sidious had smothered everyone with and fulfilling his destiny. How he brought balance to the Force is another issue entirely that's debated to the ends of the universe I'm afraid.--Exor 05:59, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The balance/"Chosen One" issue is a big debate indeed and there's probably no point in spilling over into that topic. If one takes a gander at the Darth Vader page's "Interpretations" section, it seems that Lucas himself wasn't sure who the Chosen One should be until he was nearly finished with both trilogies. I think we can both agree though that it's not clear if Palpatine threw the fight. Maybe he did, maybe he did not. There is good evidence I'd say on both sides, as well as some evidence that isn't as straightforward as it may seem. Windu's exposure to an attack is certainly evidence for example, but when you think about it objectively, is it evidence necessarily in Palpatine's favor? A point I made much earlier is that we, as spectators (largely) ignorant of proper swordfighting, often subconsciously base our idea of who outfought who on the outcome of a particular contest, rather than the content of the contest. This applies in Episode III moreso because we know in retrospect who is on top in A New Hope. Think about it. Without knowing that Palpatine eventually survives Yoda's attack and later becomes the ruler of the Galaxy, is it obvious from that single duel that Palpatine threw the fight to Windu simply because Windu's defenses were open for an attack? Why, for example, wouldn't one claim that Windu himself threw the fight? Afterall, *he* is the master swordsman who so carelessly left himself conspicuously unguarded. Isn't it odd, to say the least? Why can't one claim Windu threw the fight since he apparently didn't fight so well for a Jedi Council member considered second only to Yoda? The reason no one claims this is because we know from hindsight (having seen the original trilogy prior) that Palpatine wins, Windu does not. This biases a lot of people into seeing only one side of this fight, that it was Palpatine's trick all along, etc. And maybe it was. But no one can objectively derive that from the content of the battle. What happens is that Mace essentially makes a mistake intentionally or not (fails to defend properly), and Palpatine makes a mistake too intentionally or not (fails to take advantage of improper defense). To say that this somehow points to Palpatine throwing the fight only seems to make sense because of a bias towards the result. If Windu had won instead (i.e. Anakin not intervening), there'd be Windu fanboys everywhere applauding his "brilliant" strategy in 'pretending' to screw up his defense, thus making Palpatine 'overconfident,' allowing him to be disarmed, or some other nonsense. Long story short, only Lucas knows, and the choreography is being overanalyzed in my humble opinion. If there is any indication that Palpatine threw the fight, it must be in the odd coincidence of Anakin walking in right when Palpatine lay seemingly defeated, and not the choreography. But even that piece of evidence has holes when examined in more depth, as has been pointed out on several other pages in addition to this one (i.e. Sidious cannot guarantee that Anakin will arrive on time; you cannot just "throw" a fight against someone earnestly trying to kill you, the chances of you getting killed when letting yourself be disarmed are very high; Sidious doesn't have perfect insight into the future and cannot guarantee that Anakin will intervene; etc). There is a lot of evidence for the whole affair being just a classic Sidious trick, but it's not clear especially since Palpatine isn't infallible. -- Solberg 12:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Mace may be a master swordsman, but so is Yoda, and Sidious. Sidious is not infallible, that is correct. Nevertheless, his abilities to sense multiple futures have been proven time and time again, some obvious... some not (IE. In the ROTS novel on page 180, Darth Sidious addresses General Grievous: "I am arranging matters to give you a second chance to do my bidding, Grievous. Expect the Jedi sent to capture you will be Obi-Wan Kenobi." Kenobi is not chosen for this assignment until the events that unfold within the next chapter on page 237. If he foresaw this, he could have foreseen the conflict in Skywalker during his fight. He could have sensed his impending arrival as well, after all he could sense him all the way across the galaxy on Mustufar) As a matter of fact, it was Palpatine himself that practically revealed his identity to the Jedi. If he even had the slightest suspicion that Windu could possibly take him down, I don't think he would have gone about his revelation the way he did. Lucas changed the scene significantly, as originally Anakin was to be at Palpatine's side the entire time. Mace finds out from some unverifiable source, and takes his Jedi posse to confront Palpatine. Anakin refuses to take Mace's side, and Palpatine takes the opportunity to Force grab the young Jedi's lightsaber. Anakin watches the entire fight, witnessing Palpatine instigate and slaughter three Jedi. Seeing him at Mace's mercy, the Chancellor doesn't look too innocent anymore. With the rewrite, Lucas made it so that Anakin doesn't waltz in until after Palpatine is disarmed and cornered. Palpatine looks far more innocent now, making it look like the Jedi are attempting to assassinate a weak and unarmed old man. Sure, Anakin is aware that the Chancellor knows the ways of the Dark Side so a little Force Lightning in self-defense isn't going to sway his opinion. This leads me to my next point: originally Mace only intended to arrest Palpatine, even after disarming him. It was only until Palpatine fired the Force Lightning that Mace deemed him too dangerous to be kept alive (which is probably why Palpatine fired the lightning in the first place, not to mention acquiring his new looks to make it seem like he's dying and helpless; and we know Palpatine is faking at this point). Why did he kill all of the other Jedi and leave Mace alive if he threw the fight? Couldn't have used any Jedi to make his scheme work? Mace is a leading member of the Jedi Council, and Palpatine knows he and Anakin aren't exactly on the friendliest of terms.

You're right, there is no way to resolve this. Too much contradictory evidence, and only Lucas knows the answer. Whe is he not telling? Will he ever tell? Who knows, he might just leave it open to interpretation... as any artist would their work.--Exor 17:39, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed most people agree that Windu was probably originally only after an arrest ("You are under arrest, my Lord" v.s. "I'm going to end this once and for all" after the lightning blast.) Using Force Lightning was probably a necessary component to force Windu and Anakin into a confrontation. It's also clear that once Palpatine is cornered, he is certainly manipulating Anakin. Most fans agree on this, the question on whether Sidious was planning this all along is more difficult. The point on letting Mace survive to the end since Anakin had a tiff with him is reasonable, yet it makes no less sense in the opposing argument that Palpatine did not throw the fight (because Windu is supposed to be a better fighter than Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin anyway, so there is a high chance he should be the last to die.) But as you say, it's possible that Lucas left this to be intentionally ambiguous or unknown, much like the name of Yoda's species. There's a certain appeal in the mysterious; explaining what's really going on tends to destroy some of the magic (i.e. the dreaded midichlorian explanation.) -- Solberg 23:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Bad chronology

For the Mace Windu page and many other Star Wars pages I think, the chronology describing the Windu v.s. Sidious duel is incorrect. Example:

"Just at Mace's apparent moment of victory, Skywalker arrives, only to see Windu's intimidating form towering hostilely over the prone Chancellor. Thinking of Padmé, Anakin insists that Windu not destroy the seemingly defeated Sith Lord. Using their disagreement as an opportunity, Palpatine blasts Windu with a torrent of Force lightning."

No, actually Anakin does not insist that Windu not destroy Palpatine until *after* the barrage of lightning, when Windu finally makes up his mind that there will be no arrest. (Palpatine starts the blast after Windu tells him "you have LOST.") Should this chronology be altered on all the pages or is it too trivial? -- Solberg 19:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)Solberg

Contradictory information on Windu's page

Compare:

"...The character profiles for both Windu and Palpatine on the official Star Wars website describe Windu as gaining the advantage, and make no mention of Palpatine throwing the fight. However in the DVD of Revenge of the Sith Lucas indicates that indeed Palpatine could have defeated Windu had he wanted, and that the entire lightning struggle was in fact an act by Palpatine to get Anakin to turn. However Lucas mentioned nothing about the Duel before...."

"...Pablo Hidalgo once addressed the matter in a special Homing Beacon article, coming to the conclusion that only George Lucas has the answer."

Well, didn't Lucas already "have the answer?" Anyone know which section of the DVD has Lucas mentioning that Palpatine could have defeated Windu if he really wanted to? I already posted this question on the page of the person who first added that tidbit to the page, but there was no response. I'm not entirely sure if Lucas explicitly confirmed this, or if it's just something that the poster thought was inferrable from the commentaries. I have the DVD and could watch it all over again to verify this, but if anyone already knows the section of the DVD, it'd save me the trouble. Thanks. - Solberg 09:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Yes, the offical websites did not mention anything about faking. And the author of that Homing Beacon issue also could not confirm it. For DVD, Lucas mentioned it in Audio Commentary (Chapter 27 - Mace vs. Sidious) that (something like:) "It was always Mace overpowering Palpatine and Palpatine try to kill Mace with his power. Then Mace deflect his ray with his sword, next Anakin step in and change the tide. The part which Palpatine pretend to lose his power (Obviously GL wanna talk about the lightning cease fire instead of faking the saber duel / disarmed) I added in the last minute."

Darth Kevinmhk 04:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks Kevinmkh. -- Solberg 22:50, 12 February 2006 (UTC)Solberg

Quotes

Lets have a vote, should we transfer the quotes to the Wikiquote wiki? --Tutmosis 15:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Move. --maru (talk) contribs 21:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Mace Windu: Responsible for the fall of the Jedi?

I don't know if it warrants a place in the article, but walking out of Episode III I immediately thought "So actually the fall of the Jedi is all Windu's fault". His decision to murder Palpatine in cold blood, rather than capture him was essentially the pivotal point of the whole trilogy. It was the decision that caused Anakin to lose faith in the Jedi Order. I'd love to know why Windu made such a bad call, but barring that, maybe this decision should be mentioned as the pivotal moment of the trilogy? Irrevenant 00:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It should only be mentioned if you can find a published reference to it. Just putting it in the article is original research, especially since it's debatable. (Very debatable; I think Windu made the right choice. He did not underestimate Palpatine's power, and probably suspected duplicity when it appeared Windu got the upper hand. Executing Palpatine was the only choice, especially since he had already resisted arrest by killing the other three Jedi.) Powers 00:30, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
And Windu was right in any case; had Palpatine been captured, he would've wriggled out and gone right back on plotting. --maru (talk) contribs 01:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
We can't know for certain what would have happened had Windu acted as a responsible jedi. We do know what happened when he didn't - and it's not pretty. To me Windu's culpability is self-evident, but if it's not to other people, that's fine; don't put it in. Irrevenant 04:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, it is true that I can't prove this hypothetical, but I think there's some fairly strong evidence to support it- we know from the other works that Palpatine had pretty well converted the Senate to his cause (Organa and co notwithstanding), and the courts were filled with Palpatine loyalists and appointees by this point. So Windu's facts are correct, and his conclusion not improbable. However, there is a mention in the novelization of ROTS, that in the last moments of his life, Windu regretted two things: that he had chosen to save Anakin's life in the Geonosis arena and not taken Dooku's, and that he hadn't looked for Anakin's shatterpoint in the Palpatine arrest. --maru (talk) contribs 04:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Windu's practice of Vaapad brings him closer to the Dark Side. He wields a purple lightsabre - part way between the Jedi blue and the Sith red. He was orphaned as a child, which tends to leave emotional wounds. He's had his mentor and his padawan fall to the Dark Side. None of this is conclusive, but taken together, it is suggestive that he may not be as calm and controlled as he appears.
When it became clear that Palpatine was a Sith Lord who had caused the Civil War that he gained power opposing, opinion would quickly turn against him. But regardless of whether it was the 'right' decision in terms of outcomes, it wasn't the right decision ethically. Palpatine had been defeated until Anakin interfered. I find it hard to believe that killing a defenceless foe in cold blood is in accordance with the Jedi way, regardless of the situation. They're supposed to be the good guys.Irrevenant 12:16, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
And it wouldn't have been good to kill him and prevent the rise of the Empire? Besides, there's no reason to think that anyone would believe Palpatine was the Sith Lord (assuming they believed he was a Sith at all!)- he had just saved the Republic from those evil-doing CIS droids! I mean, it'd be like the Supreme Court marching into the White House and putting Bush on trial for treason for eating babies and starting the Iraq war for his own political gain (well, perhaps I could come up with a better analogy, but that should do). No one would believe it. --maru (talk) contribs 00:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Come on are you for real? Your gonna have to just give this one up buddy. Let anikin take responsiblity for what he done. I cant blame you cause u make a good point but if u put it like that then its just not mace's fault right. Then we would have to blame obi-wan for tranning him... o wait lets go futher back...we have to blame jin for taking him off tatooine...o wait thats not far enough lets go ahead and blame his mom for having him but that still dont work so lets go ahead and blame the sith for even being there for him to turn to. But, that still dosent cut it so we have to blame the jedi order its self for him to turn on right o wait we mine as well blame the force cause with out the force non of this would be possible right. Dont mean to sound like a prick but u see where im going with this.[added by user sirbizzy] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.42.86.143 (talk • contribs) .
OK, first thing, this discussion is over six months old. That's ok, though, nothing says you can't reply to it. But second thing, you inserted your comment above mine, which made it look like I was responding to you instead of to Irrevenant. Third thing, this "[added by user sirbizzy]" thing is confusing. Just use four tildes (~~~~). It's easy. Powers T 00:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry didnt mean to make it look like i was talking bout you. Second really dosent matter how old it is i will add somthing if i got somthing to say. 3rd [added by sirbizzy] is my own thing and i like to do it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.42.86.143 (talk • contribs).

You're welcome to put "[added by sirbizzy]" at the near end of your responses, but please still use ~~~~, as it automatically date-stamps your response (which is very important when reviewing conversations). EVula 18:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC) <-- see?

POV

"He is an excellent chief mentor and considered a wise and powerful Jedi Consular/Guardian Master of the Jedi Order." Isn' that biased?--Tdxiang 陈 鼎 翔 (Talk)ContributionsContributions Chat with Tdxiang on IRC! 10:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

A bit POV, perhaps, but not as bad as if he was a real person. As a fictional character, it's ok to speak of his characteristics like that because it's part of his characterization and more-or-less obvious to anyone who's watched the films. It'd be like saying "Charlie Brown is the wishy-washy, inept, and insecure protagonist of Peanuts, largely considered an object of derision by his peers," is POV. Powers 13:20, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

WINDU DIED. Mace Windu died, please get over it. You guy's are a pain in da ass and while it's humerous reading you stupid fanboy's write it's getting old. Mace died! He was fucking electrocuted and thrown out a window. It would take a miracle for the dead jedi to survive. The fact is that Anakin cut off his hand, fagotine electrocuted him and threw him out the window to his death.GET OVER IT!. GOD! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.250.190.110 (talk • contribs) 12:39, 22 May 2006 (UTC).

Lando Calrissian is Mace Windu's son

Just kidding. After all the ridiculous theories on this page, why not start up another pointless debate. Let's just say...Lando is Mace Windu's secret son (the one he always wanted to forget).—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.210.31.168 (talk • contribs) 23:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC).

You're really not helping. I just spent thirty minutes tagging all of your comments because you couldn't be bothered to sign them, not to mention reverting the changes you made to other editors' comments. Please don't do that again. Powers 12:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If Mace Windu created Form 7 which is Vaapad why do Darth Maul and Darth Sidious use it? Mace Windu never taught them Form 7 so how do they know it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.228.245.85 (talk • contribs) .

See Lightsaber combat#Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad. Vaapad is basically Windu's personal variant on Juyo, but both are Form VII, and he was far from the first to use Form VII. Powers 14:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yea its me once again

, ok all you guyz make good points about this, i just wanted to add this. Windu should of took him prisoner right and he should of not tryed to kill him and that anikin was right in doing what he did for the good of the jedi and the rebublic huh. Sorry enough siduous use this to convert ankin to the dark side right, ok if windu was so bad of what he done then aninkin should of never been there in the 1st place right, was in not anikin in the begging of the movie who cut the hard off of a helpless sith lored named count doku... please correct me if im worng. so aninkin had the balls to oppose a jedi who out ranked him even though he was put in the same situation and did far wores than what the windu had did. my point is its not windu fault it is anikins. We all know that the reason he didnt want him to die was cause he tought he could save his wife he he let him live(when infact we all know that the vision he had was still to come true due to his own action...so anikin is resposible for the death of his wife) So indded it is not windus fault but more that anikin own weak ass right. He was put in the same situiation and had the never to actully kill, what if obi-wan where not knocked out and put in the same position as he was...DO u think obi-wan would have stuck him down?[added by sirbizzy]

Please don't replace section headers with your comments as you did in this edit. Also, please sign your posts with ~~~~ instead of "[added by sirbizzy]". Thanks! Powers T 15:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page has clearly been vandalized.

--Illusio80 13:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

...so fix it. Be bold in the face of vandalism. EVula 14:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
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