Talk:Luxury vehicles/Sam's referencing demands 22 March 06
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[edit] Hostility
In your comment section Gerd has called me frustrated because I have flagged this article for its obvious lack of references. This article is therefore illegitimate and should be deleted. The "frustrated" comment is derogatory and a personal attack against me. Samstayton 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- No Sam. Its an observation and expession of concern on my side. FYI: Please don't assume that a user name is the real name of the person behind the account of that particular user name. Regards, Signaturebrendel 00:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Gerd, a wikipedia editor has attacked me personally. He accuses me for being "angry" and "frustrated" and he is repeatedly using these words despite my cautionary statement indicating to him not to do so.
- I have not attacked you, but wanted to bring it to your attention that you have insulted me, as you have perviously done with other users. You have exhibited nothing but direct and indirect hostility towards me since you reappeared from your hiatus. Signaturebrendel 07:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I have provided the follwing points as proofs that this article is not citied, it contains POV, and the citations are not in line with statements made.
Wikipedia administrators, please look into this matter immediately before these valuable comments are archived. Gerd, please do not archive the follwing point by point comments without addressing these. Samstayton 01:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
There is nothing wrong with archiving such a large discussion. Please be reasonalbe. I know you think I am wasting your and everyone's time, you clearly said so in your first post to me on the Lexus LS talk page, but please don't try and make me look like the bad guy. I have been nothing but professional, and have meet the insluts coming from you with nothing but an outmost professional manner of conduct. Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 05:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lack of References
This article does not cite its references and mainly POV. Here are the following examples:
- 1. The first statement itself is unreferenced : "...A luxury vehicle is a vehicle which provides a great abundance of ease and comfort. Although there can be a great range of "vehicles" that offer luxurious settings, a true luxury car will be a car (sedan, coupè, hatchback, station wagon, roadster, etc.), a light truck (light pickup trucks), or an SUV..." ??? Ref. missing
- 2. "...Luxury vehicles place more emphasis on comfort, appearance, and amenities than on performance, economy, or utility...." ??? reference is missing again.
- 3. "...Furthermore, they usually offer more modern technology, higher quality materials, and are often built in smaller numbers than more affordable mass-market vehicles..." ??? Again the reference is missing. Where is the reference to support "furthermore".
- 4. "...While a luxury car is difficult to define as it is somewhat subjective, there are certain guidelines by which the luxury cars are defined. Currently, that means its Mean Selling Price (MSP) is excess of roughly US$36,000 or higher..." ??? reference missing from this statement.
- Common knowledge and you created that threshold. My data indicated $40k to be the treshold and I have refs for that. Signaturebrendel 06:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- 5. "...In addition to being relatively expensive, luxury cars also offer a higher degree of comfort than their mainstream counterparts as well as a highly sumptous interior with a strong emphasis on design and beauty..." Ref# missing
- 6. "...A vehicle may still be considered an entry-level luxury vehicle if its base MSP is in the general range of $29,000 and $36,000, it features a strong emphasis on comfort, and it is manufactured by a luxury car maker..." ref missing again from this statement.
- 7. "...Luxury car makers are companies which produce cars at approximate price of $36,000. In order for a vehiclemade by a non-luxury marque to be considered a luxury car, it should have a base MSP of roughly $36k..." ref# is missing.
- You came up with this, where did you get the info; tell me so I can add it. This info comes from the graph, over which you according to your previous statements "spend two days creating." Signaturebrendel 06:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- 8. "...In addition to featuring a high base price and high levels of comfort luxury, cars typically carry prestige. Although this cannot be measured in finite quantities, "prestige" usually refers to the allure which the car carries. From prestige, people get the idea of "paying for the emblem"...". Again the reference is missing.
- 9. "...For example, because of its prestige, the BMW 3 Series might cost more than if the same car if it was sold under a non-luxury marque. Also, it is important to note, that in no way are all prestige cars actually luxury cars (e.g. the Dodge Viper is certainly not a luxury car)..."
Samstayton 00:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sam, general knowledge is a ref as well. That you pay more for a brand image is well known fact and that the Viper isn't luxury is well known as well. The word luxury implies comfort and the refs at the bottom back it up. Also this is not an appropriate outlet for your anger and frustration. So please, you put some of the info in here such as the $36k treshold. And no. saying that you are frustrate is stating an observation, not a personal attack. Thank you. Signaturebrendel 00:51, 22 March 2006 (UTC) Dear Gerd, please add citations or this article should be deleted. All statements and sections "must" have references. This is "wiki-policy", isnt it?? Please cite references and tag them to the statement you are refering to. Samstayton 01:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- Not it isn't you don't need tags for everything you say. You simply don't. No offense but I think you need to read the wiki manual more carefully. Regards, Signaturebrendel 05:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Continued Lack of References
- 10. "...In the car market of the new millenium, it has become rather difficult to determine whether a vehicle is indeed a luxury car or not. Many vehicles such as the GMC Yukon or the Chevrolet Suburban fit the price criteria to be considered luxury vehicles, yet they do not have many of the amenities of other luxury vehicles..."
This statement is total POV. Phrases such as "Car market of new millenium", "rather difficult", "whether" and "indeed" are not in good taste and are "weasel" phrases. Wikipedia has itself used the word "weasel" to describe such phrases. Nope, they arn't. Thanks Signaturebrendel 01:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- 11. "...There are quite a few vehicles who have luxury car-like prestige and/or pricing but do not offer the degree of comfort required for them to actually be considered luxury vehicles; these vehicles include the Hummer H1, the Chevrolet Corvette and the Dodge Viper. All three vehicles have base MSPs of above $36,000 and the Hummer H1 is made by a company whose entire lineup, with exception of the Hummer H3, features base MSPs in excess of $50,000. Yet all three lack the comfort needed to make them luxury vehicles..." This statement has no reference.
- 12. "...Further, many non-luxury prestige vehicles with über-high prices, such as the Porsche 911 and many Lamborghinis are often mistaken as luxury vehicles, however in comparison to the other luxury cars (even in the mid-luxury segment) they are not luxury vehicles..." This statement is again highly potent POV. The authors have not provided any reference to support this statement.
- This statement is not found in the article. Please abstain from making grossly false accusations; this only sustains my concern over your editing being the result of you expressing your frustrations. Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The pricing of the cars prove this please tell me whether or not you want me to include the manufacturer's web-sites to ref this statement. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 01:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- 13. "...Other vehicles, such as the Mercury Grand Marquis, are not considered to be luxury vehicles due to their relatively low MSPs, despite their high degree of comfort..." Why so? How can we know whether its fraud or a verifiable statement. No reference has been provided.
Yes, look closely. Its not on kbb's list not on that of any other publication. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 01:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- 14. "...Note that the following classifications of cars does not include certain packages that come with the car that might raise the car into a higher level. For example, the average BMW 3 Series sells in the "entry level" category. But the M3 is certainly part of the mid-level category. Also, vehicles such as the Lincoln Town Car or Cadillac DTS feature interiors as plush and luxurious as those of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class or BMW 7 Series, yet are classified as mid-luxury due to their relatively low MSPs...". Again, no reference has been provided to verify why M3 is "certainly" a part of "mid-level" category. Also, the insert "such as lincoln town car or Cadillac DTS feature interiors as plush and luxurious" and so on.
- Manufacturer's web-sites, New Car Test Drive, and common knowledge. Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
- 15. "...The entry-level luxury forms the beginning classification of the luxury vehicles; competition in this segment is typically fierce. It features vehicles with an MSP approximately between $29,000 and $36,000, a relatively high degree of comfort and is manufactured by luxury brand. If the vehicle is manufactured by a non-luxury marque its base MSP should exceed approximately $36k and it must place an emphasis on comfort...".
Very strong language has been used which is clearly POV. "fierce" and "relatively high degree" have been used but are not verifiable. No references have been linked to this statement. You put in the term fierce. If you consider your writing POV than quite frankly, that's not my problem and not anything I should be accused of writing. Please don't accuse me of putting in POV writing that I didn't write, please don't try to "frame" me. We have history and your talk page is still accessible over its history, no word on wikipedia is ever lost, so please don't try and frame and intimidate me. Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
My earlier comment: Yeah, well. You wrote more than half of that so... out goes everything except for the pricing guidelines which are referenced. Signaturebrendel
[edit] Further Lack of References
- 16. "...This segment mostly includes the bottom vehicles in the line-up of luxury brands as well as the top-of-the-line models of some non-luxury brands. Vehicles in this segment include the Lincoln Zephyr, BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS, Audi A4, Mercedes C-class, Infiniti G35, Acura TL, and the Jaguar X-Type. It should, however, be considered that some of entry-level luxury vehicles have upgrades which put them into the class above them. For example, while the Lincoln LS V6 is an entry-level luxury vehicle, the LS V8 is due to its pricing a mid-level luxury vehicle...".
The pricing of the cars prove this please tell me whether or not you want me to include the manufacturer's web-sites to ref this statement. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 01:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
This statement is illegitimate until a reference citing it is provided. No it isn't. Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
My earlier comment: The pricing of the cars prove this please tell me whether or not you want me to include the manufacturer's web-sites to ref this statement. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 01:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
- 17. "...A luxury SUV much like a luxury car is a relatively expensive vehicle that features a higher emphasis on comfort and quality than its mainstream counterparts. Even though luxury SUVs do not necessarily feature more comfort or a higher quality than sedans, they tend to be more expensive than luxury sedans. The top-of-the-line SUVs of American and Japanese luxury car makers out price their flagship sedans. The flagship SUV Cadillac Escalade, for example, has a base MSP of approximately $57,280, versus $41,991 for the flagship DTS. This scenario, however, does not hold true for European automakers, where the flagship sedans are still priced above the top-of-the-line SUV..."
This paragraph under "Luxury SUV (United States)" is again not referenced and is therefore illegitimate until it is cited by a reputable and verifiable reference.
In Western Europe, different classifications are sometimes used than in the US. While most luxury cars are considered luxury cars in both Europe and the US, the entry-level segment is not. In Germany cars with MSPs of approximately over $20k are classified as "Mittelklasse" or Middle-Class, "Obere Mittelklasse" or Upper-Middle-Class, and "Oberklasse" or Upper-class.
Middle-Class vehicles are the equivalent of entry-level luxury cars in the US such as the BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class or the Audi A4. These vehicles are not considered to be luxury cars.
Upper-Middle-Class vehicles are the equivalent of mid-level luxury cars in the US. They include vehicles such as the BMW 5 Series, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, and the Audi A6. These vehicles are considered to be luxury vehicles.
Upper-Class vehicles are the equivalent of high-end and ultra luxury vehicles in the US. They include vehicles such as the BMW 7 Series, Mercedes-Benz S-Class, and the Audi A8..."
- German wikipedia, and ADAC (German Automobile Club) as well as VDA (German association of car manufacturers). Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
This entire section is not cited and is therefore illegitimate at the moment. No reference has been provided. Samstayton 01:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Not ture, please see the comments above I added today; they should address all concerns. Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 06:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
