Talk:Luxury vehicles

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In what country is this a legal term? Rmhermen 00:56 24 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I believe its some sort of legal term in the United States, both for tax and insurance purposes. But, then again, I am a lifetime supporter of the internal combustion boycott; so I don't have a car and don't really know. Pizza Puzzle

This is a strange little article, really just a stub, and needs revising. I don't know why sports cars are listed here, and I doggone sure wouldn't call a Humvee one. "Luxury car" in the US, as far as I know, just refers to a vehicle marketed to buyers who favor comfort over economy or performance. I've never heard of a luxury car tax. There is a gas guzzler tax, but it usually falls on performance models. RivGuySC 03:04, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The luxury was removed by the Clinton Administartion and the Gas Guzzler Tax applies to all gas guzzling cars regarding whether or not luxury. Gerdbrendel 02:58, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Paying for the Emblem (BMW example)

"For example, because of its prestige, the BMW 3 Series might cost more than the same car if it was sold under a non-luxury marque" I think this is the least appropriate example to give. The engine technology, no front-wheel drive and overall build quality make the 3 series (and probably all BMW's) one of the (if not "the") top cars in its segment, regardless of the badge. An example about platform-sharing cars would be more meaningful; like one about "prestige" Audis and their significantly cheaper cousins Skodas, despite the almost same build quality, or one about a Jag X-Type and a Mondeo or Mazda 6. 85.108.52.116 12:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

See Veblen good. That the BMW 3 Series is superior to the competition is your opinion, and we can't have opinion on WP (including those of press reviewers' unless they're citing facts). The BMW plaque does add to the price becuase of BMW's image, whether that's a justified image or not. Pricing and prestige may have little to do with the acutal quality of the product. Hypthetically, if Skoda was to build a car as good as the 3-Series, it would still cost less-despite the same quality. BMW has an image and that image drives up demand, and thus price. How don't get me wrong, I am a luxury car owner myself and do beleive that there is a world of difference between luxury and non-luxury cars, but I also know that a certain desirable "brand" image drives up the price. Signaturebrendel 15:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I know what a Veblen good is, i'm an economist myself :) You're right, we're are all in the same game, willing to pay more for some particular badge (I'm considering buying an A4 - a car not actually better than the Skoda Superb materially). I don't deny the existence of the "BMW badge premium" on the price of a 3 series. What i'm trying to point out is that a 3 series car is one of the least appropriate examples to give here. You say "...unless they're citing facts"; well if you really know about cars (the technical aspects) you'll understand i'm talking about facts. The examples I proposed are plainly stronger examples because the cars I mentioned there are technically identical. Again, I don't deny the effect of the badge on a car's price, but the badge is not the only reason behind the price difference; "if Skoda was to build a car as good as the 3-Series...", well it can't or at least won't.. :) - By the way, we don't really disagree, right?! Mine is just a tiny suggestion. 85.107.25.15 20:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I see what you're saying, the BMW 3-Series might not be the best example, even though the concept still aplies to it. Okay, we can also use the Audi A4 if you think its more appropriate. BTW: The things is that the word "best" is always kind of POV, yes you cite facts, like the decibel noise level, etc... but still best depends on the consumer's preverences. So, as we agree on the badge effect I replaced BMW w/ Audi. Regards, Signaturebrendel 21:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree.. :) Thanks for the nice discussion by the way.. 85.108.54.73 19:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving of parts of the discussion page

This discussion page will, to say the least, make a very undesirable imprssion on visitors. I would hereby like to delete or archive it. Any objections, or thoughts? Thank you. Signaturebrendel 06:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about that... I agree, it wouldn't come out great for readers. I was going to have it archived for length anyway. I think it would be best to archive it, in the chance that someone else might have a similar discussion. So, I vote archive. How do you feel about it? I hope you have no hard feelings in this wiki-editting war. I was trying to just make the article more encompassing and legitimate. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings... in case I did. Zouf 21:51, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, archiving is the best thing to do. Regards, Signaturebrendel 00:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Sections with references

The sections with references are okay. They can be included. But the other statements in this article are illegitimate and need immediate attention. Samstayton 01:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

All lists of vehicles are refernced. There is reference to prove that the Entry-level segment starts and ends at the indicated tresholds and we have a complete list of all entry-level luxury, mid-level luxury as well as high-end and ultra-luxury vehicles and the guidlines by which to define these segments. I think I have addressed all your concerns. If you have any further questions please reply below. Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 02:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

No, this article needs all the references, which have not been provided. This article is illegitimate and should be deleted. Samstayton 02:25, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Deleted? Just because it needs some references doesn't mean it needs to be deleted, you know. --ApolloBoy 02:48, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, besides I'm still trying to gather more refs that I'll add. Thank you. Regards, Signaturebrendel 04:59, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Please be more specific. You have to discuss the points you made, point by point. Okay you said there is nor reference for the BMW 5-Series being mid-level but there is. We have defenition of what Mid-level mean, between $40k and $60k right. So if you go to BMW.com you'll find that the 5-Series mtaches that category. Alrighty? Then you said the statement that a top-of-the-line 5-Series (M5, which well is actually its own model) might reach up into the High-end segment is unrefernced, but it isn't. Go to BMW.com and you will see how expensive the M5 gets. See, the 5-Series is an example, but the status of all vehicles mentioned is referenced. Please tell me how your concern have not been addressed poroperly and please be specific. You might find it to be easiest if you reply to the comments I made regarding your 16 points above. We gotta go trhough this point by point if you want to make this a better article. Also one template is enough, eh? And no we don't need to use footnotes for every statement like you did for the X-Type. We just need some general refs at the bottom of the article. Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 02:36, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SAAB AND VOLVO NOT LUXURY CARS.........?

WHY SAAB OR VOLVO ARE NOT TO BE CONSIDERED LUXURY MAKES WHEN MOST OF THE REVENUES FROM THEIR PRODUCTS COME FROM CARS PRICED A LOT MORE THAN 29OOO US$ OR 24000 EURO(S60,S80,XC70,XC90,V70,C70 AND ALL SAABS + MOST OF S40 AND V50 CARS SOLD ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE EXCEPT FROM THE 1,6)!!!!YOU SHOULD ALSO CONSIDER THAT THE AVERAGE INCOME IN THE EU-15 IS LESS THAN THAT OF THE US.THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT A FOCUS IS A LUXURY CAR BECAUSE IN PORTUGAL THE TAXES ARE TOO HIGH or because the portuguese are poor...BUT HIGHER TAXES IN EUROPE SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT AS VEHICLES WHITH MORE POWER ARE MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THE SAME IN THE US.FOR EXAMPLE IN EUROPE YOU BUY A VOLVO S40 1,8 FOR 24000EUR(OR 30744 US$!!!!-KINETIC TRIM LEVEL)AND IN THE US THE SAME CAR WITH A 2,4(170PS NOT 140PS)LTR ENGINE(MOMENTUM TRIM LEVEL WHICH IS DEFINETELY MORE LUXURIOUS)CAN BE PURCHASED WITH 24000$ MSRP(18722US$)!FOR THE US IS DEFINETELY NOT A LUXURY CAR BUT FOR EUROPE IT REALLY IS CONSIDERING THE PRICE CRITERION THAT YOU SET. SO I THINK YOU SHOULD RECONSIDER THE OPINION ABOUT THE NEAR LUXURY MANUFACTURERS ESPECIALLY WHEN THEIR TOP SELLING MODELS EXCEED THE PRICE CRITERION YOU SET AND THE MAJORITY OF REVENUE COMES FROM CARS COSTING A LOT MORE THAN 29000 US $ FOR THE US MARKET. ONLY THE GERMANS ARE LUXURIOUS FIRMS?WHA TABOUT THE PAST?WAS VOLVO THE SAME AS AUDI OR SHARPLY MORE LUXURIOUS? NON SCANDINAVIAN ΑΠΟΣΤΟΛΗΣ (This post was left by 87.203.216.224)

Okay, no need to capitalize your entire post. As you can see most of this article is under the heading "(American market)". Volvos and Saads are two cheap. There are several things you need to take into account:

  1. Most Volvos are less than the median MSRP of vehicles sold. (Too cheap-$24k is an average family car)
  2. Not all cars are more expensive in the EU-the MB E-Class is cheaper in Germany than here
  3. Not all Europeans spend considerably less-Germans spend 23,000 Eruos on their new cars versus $26,000 among Americans
  4. Please do not translate currencies-yes right now 24k Euros may be $30k-but what if the currencies change-does the actual domestic buying power of Europeans go down when the Euro goes down-no
  5. Volvo does not have the prestige, few press releases in Germany or here describe the S40 as a luxury car. Not even Volvo calls it a luxury car.
  6. Please provide a reference for "The majority of revenue [for Volvo and Saab coming] from cars costing a lot more than $29k."-I doubt seriously doubt it does.

If you would like to expand the non-US section you can but please don't convert currencies it merely gives an inaccurate depiction of pucharsing power. Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40? Regards, Signaturebrendel 23:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

BRENDEL,APOSTOLIS HERE


Sorry for the capitals,last time.They were annoying and confusing.

The criterion set by the wikipedia site for a luxury car is to have a PRICE ABOVE 30000 US$,ok? Luxury car makers are those manufacturers that more than 50% of their sales comes from cars that cost more than this price tag,ok?

VOLVO CARS SALES 2005

Volvo XC90 85,994 US STARTING UP 36135 US $ GERMANY 42500 Volvo V50 83,202 " " 26690 US $ 22500(1,6) Volvo S40 75,136 " " 24240 US $ 21800(1,6) Volvo V70 70,156 " " 30045 US $ 31670 Volvo S60 62,528 " " 30885 US $ 28870 Volvo XC70 35,357 " " 36420 US $ 39400 Volvo S80 27,568 " " - - Volvo C70 Classic 3,246 " - -

THE All new Volvo S80 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars for its first year with starting price of 39360 US $ or 35950 EURO in Germany.th one referred above is the old one. The all new Volvo C70 is expected to sell more than 50000 cars(20000 ordered in 3 months!) with starting price of 39090 US $ or 33300 Euro in Germany. Consider the fact that average income in EU-15 is less than that of the US and that Germany has in general the lowest car prices in Europe.Even the German GDP per capita is much lower than that of the US.The Europeans tend to work less than the Americans.Volvo S40 is the only near luxury model of VOLVO considering the fact that most of its sales come from 1.8,2.0,2.4 and 2.0 diesel engines.All the other Volvo car models are above the price criterion.Volvo S40/V50 consists only of the 35.66% of total sales... Volvo is definetely a luxury car maker Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI,

Sold cars

2005 2004 +/– 2004

Volvo S40 75,136 53,085 + 41,5% Volvo S60 62,528 73,121 – 14,4% Volvo S80 27,568 32,985 – 16,4% Volvo V50 83,202 47,743 + 74,0% Volvo V70 70,156 74,656 – 6,0% Volvo XC70 35,357 35,876 – 1,4% Volvo XC90 85,994 84,032 + 2,3% Volvo C70 Classic* 3,246 7,012 – 53,0% Others 760 47,714 – 98,4% Total 443,947 456,224 – 2,8%


  • Production of Volvo C70 Classic ended in March 2005.


http://www.volvocars.com/corporation/FactsandFigures/MarketsandSales/


see the prices of Volvo cars on the internet

I am very frustrated by your last comment: "Also, a Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?"It is very unsophisticated and insulting for me!Have I told you anything like this?Volvo S40 is in a car range different than these cars as it is smaller.Why don't you refer to Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80!!!We talk about the entry level models,don't we?In Europe these cars are considered luxury cars.Do not take as an example only Germany.We talk about Europe.In US luxury cars sre considered those that cost more than 30000 US $.In Germany it may be the same.In France?Italy?UK?Spain,Sweden,Belgium,Greece?All these,other than german,markets consist much more in Europe's sales.So when you talk about Europe you should talk about the whole Europe,not only Germany.You are German but the review about Europe should refer to all OECD(Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development-developed countries) European members.Finally do not consider luxury cars from their american definition.In Europe this definition for all these reasons mentioned is totally different.

"Sure,it does not match the image of Audi or BMW,but is more classy than AUDI"- that's what I meant with "Mercedes-Benz E and S-class in the same class as a Volvo S40?". Okay, don't be offended. In the US and Germany we use the term luxury brands for Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, etc... As you said, Volvo and Saab are not on the same level as Cadillac or Jaguar. So can we call them luxo makes if we call Jaguar a luxo make? "Mercedes C-CLASS or BMW 3 SERIES,AUDI A4?MERCEDES E-CLASS IS AT THE SAME CATEGORY AS VOLVO S80"-correct only in Eruope but not the US. In the US the S80 goes up against the C-Class in terms of pricing. Therefore the BMW 3-Series or Lincoln MKZ are the entry-level cars in the line-up of the those brands. The Volvo S80 is Volvo's top-of-the-line sedan. Thus Volvo's top sedan is priced in the same class as the bottom line-up sedan of BMW and Lincoln, illustrating the discrpancy between luxo and quasi-luxo brands like Volvo. Also, we don't have a definition of this article for France, Spain, Italy, Sweden. This article currently discusses luxo cars in two markets, North America and Germany. Why? Because I do not understand enough French or Spanish to look up those sources and we have not had an editor on this article who did. If you want to add a section called: "Swedish (or any country from which have a guideline) definition"- by all means do it. Add to the article! Create a section discussing the situation outside the Anglo-Germanic relam. BTW: Thanks for the lower case. Also, I did not in any way try and offend you. Regards, Signaturebrendel 06:37, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

BMW 525i 43500$,AUDI A6 3.2 40820$,VOLVO S80 3,2 39360$,MERCEDES E-CLASS 51325$,ACURA TL 3,2 33325$,INFINITI M 41450$,SAAB 9-5 2.3T 34820$

I think that Mercedes is in a class of its own in the US!!!However all the other models are in the same class as Volvo S80,aren't they?Saab and Acura are a little bit downmarket.These prices are in the US.So why Volvo S80 is compared with the smallest BMW sedan?In Europe the prices of Audi and Volvo are the same,the BMW and Mercedes are a bit more expensive.Mercedes E is very expensive in the US....

Europe(Belgium) prices

MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro

You can easily see that Volvo is at the same category as the others.And even better than Audi.We talk about an average European market as Belgium is.

In Greece where I live,Saab is more upmarket than Volvo.
I agree American love Mercedes and the E-Class is quite a bit more expensive here than in Europe. Mercedes works hard to keep its prestige high in the US-that's partially why they havn't introduced the A or B-Class here (Also, the 2.2 CDI isn't sold here). I also agree with you that the S80 is a luxury car. I compared the S80 w/ the C-Class becuase its starting price is blow the $40k mark-but I can see how it is comparable to the E-Class. That said, Volvo has only one luxo car in its line-up. Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, Lincoln, and BMW are all lux in the US (the A/B Class, BMW 2-Series arn't sold here) and even in Europe have more at least two models above the $40k mark. So in the US Volvo is still downmarket from "ture" luxo brands like BMW and Jaguar. Volvo is, however, upmarket from mainstream brands like VW and Ford. That's why for the American market we have listed Volvo as a semi-luxo brand alongside Buick-which featrues similar pricing. You do seem more informed about the European market outside Germany (where Volvo is in a similar position as in the US), so please feel free to add a section about the "Greek market" or Belgium market. There you can say that while Volvo isn't on the same level as MB and BMW in the US and Germany it is a luxo make in Belgium and other average Euro markets. Regards, Signaturebrendel 21:51, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

1So let's talk about the other models

BELGIAN STARTING PRICES IN EURO

BMW X5: 47800 ,MERCEDES M:49557 ,VOLVO XC90:44590 ,AUDI Q7: 49346 ,SAAB 9-7X: 49026 ,CADILLAC SRX 46949 ,JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE: 41900 ,LAND ROVER DISCOVERY(LR3): 41194 ,LEXUS RX: 46555 , PORSCHE CAYENNE: 52151

VOLVO'S BEST SELLING MODEL(19,37% OF TOTAL VOLVO SALES) IS XC90 STARTING AT 44950 EURO

VOLVO S60: 26949 EURO ,MERCEDES C: 29986 ,BMW 3-SEDAN: 25899 ,AUDI A4 : 24299 ,SAAB 9-3: 20000, CADILLAC BLS: 27589 ,LEXUS IS : 31479 ,JAGUAR X-TYPE : 28900,ALFA ROMEO 159 : 23300, VOLVO S40: 22750

VOLVO has two models in this category: S60,a true luxury car(14.08% of Volvo sales) and S40(16.92%),Volvo's near luxury car.The best selling models are those costing a lot more:Volvo S40 1.6Diesel(24750 euro)and all the engines produced in Sweden as only 20% of factory's output are fitted with Ford's petrol engines(1.6,1.8,2.0).The others are diesels(1.6,2.0:26250E,D5:29299E) or 2.4i(26799),2.5 T5(32750).My reference is www.volvocarsgent.be

MERCEDES E-CLASS 37631 Euro(2.2 CDI),BMW 520d 37100 Euro(525i 41349 Euro),AUDI A6 2.0 TDI 33970 Euro,Volvo S80 35199 Euro(2.4 diesel),SAAB 9-5 30999 Euro,LEXUS GS 47005

VOLVO V70 :31799, MERCEDES C-CLASS BREAK: 32277 ,AUDI A4 AVANT : 25514 , BMW 3 TOURING: 28000 JAGUAR X-TYPE ESTATE : 30900 ,VOLVO V50 : 25249

VOLVO has also two estates in the same category:V70(15.8% OF VOLVO SALES)AND V50(18.74%)

Even if we exlcude s40 and v50 and provided that S80(starting at 35199 euro) and C70(starting at 34000 euro) will sell more than 100000 cars in their first year(MORE THAN 1/5th of company's sales),the sales of models that have the same price as Mercedes,Bmw,Audi etc is very big

XC90+S60+V70+XC70+S80(NEW)+C70(NEW) YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS A LUXURY CAR MAKER FOR THE EUROPEAN MARKET + near luxury S40 and V50(although their price is very close to that of Audis)

The Germans would never agree that their swedish counterparts could be luxurious.

We agree that either Volvo nor Saab and Alfa Romeo produce cars rival to more expensive Mercedes(like CLS,S,CL,SLR,R) and BMW cars(like 7,6,M series) than those mentioned above.But this is not a reason not to consider them luxury.Why then AUDI is a luxury car maker and not a Volvo?The only car it produces above Volvo is A8,but its sales are not an important part of Audi's sales.

VOLVO V70 IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN JAGUAR X ESTATE AND SOLD 70156 CARS IN 2005. THE WHOLE JAGUAR FIRM SELLS ROUGHLY 80000 CARS PER ANNUM


Volvo,Land Rover,Jaguar,Aston Martin create PAG(Premier Automotive Group), FORD'S company for European luxury brands and Volvo is part of it.

I am having a similar discussion on the German WP, here editors also agree that Volvo is not on the same level as MB or BMW simply becuase they do not have models priced above $40k or 40k E. MB, BMW and Jaguar are not in the same cateogry as Cadillac, Lincoln, Jaguar, not in Germany nor in the US. That said, perhaps things are different in other parts of the world. Car pricing differs greatly acorss the planet. In the US the S60 is not a luxury car neither is the S40, The Cadillac BLS is not sold here and neither are the cheaper E-Class models. AS I said you can open another section for non-German/US markets, there you can list Volvo as being luxury. For the American or German market it would be false to lump Volvo together with the likes of Cadillac and Lexus. But, as I have said, that may not be the situation everywhere. So while Volvo is a semi-luxo brand in the US, it may be a proper luxo brands in say, Sweden ;-) Let me give you the numbers for the American market:
  • Lincoln ($30,000 to $65,000)
    • Navigator $51,000
    • Town Car $43,000
    • LS V8 $40,000
    • Mark LT $40,000
    • Zpehyr $30,000
Average starting MSRP: $40,800
  • Cadillac ($30,000 to $71,000)
    • Escalade $55,000
    • DTS $42,000
    • STS $41,000
    • CTS $30,000
Average starting MSRP: $42,000
  • Jaguar ($33,000 to $112,000)
    • XK $76,000
    • XJ $62,000
    • S-Type $46,000
    • X-Type $33,000
Average starting MSRP: $54,250
Now:
  • Volvo ($24,000 to $39,000)
    • C70 $39,000
    • S80 $38,000
    • XC70 $36,000
    • XC90 $36,000
    • S60 $31,000
    • U70 $30,000
    • U50 $26,000
    • S40 $24,000
Average starting MSRP: $32,500
Mainstream manufacturer:
  • Chevrolet ($10,000 to $48,000)
    • Aveo $10,000
    • Cobalt $14,000
    • Colorado $15,000
    • Solverado $16,000
    • HHR $16,000
    • Malibu $18,000
    • Impala $21,000
    • Monte C $21,000
    • Uplander $22,000
    • Equinox $22,000
    • T. Blazer $25,000
    • Avalanche $33,000
    • Tahoe $34,000
    • Suburban $37,000
Average startung MSRP: $21,714
So, as you can see, Volvo is in-between luxury marques such as Lincoln/Jaguar/Cadillac and mainstram marques such as Cehvorlet. That's why for the North American market we call it a semi-luxury marque. But that's the US only and as I said, the situation may be quite different in other markets. So, add a section for those markets. The list you currently see on this page only applies to the US-add another list for other markets. Sound good? Regards, Signaturebrendel 05:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but how can I add a section?

Oh, very simple. Just go the article click on the edit "Edit this article" tab, scroll to the bottom and add ==Section name== and write your section below. If you need any help let me know. Remember the No. 1 Wiki rule, Be Bold! Regards, Signaturebrendel 07:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello again

Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country...

[1]

The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro. Just see it and you will realise that only Germans spend big sums of money for new cars.They spend their money to buy used cars with higher cilindrity...Just see the auto park of Belgium...[2]

Is Buick the same as Volvo?Just see the prices...You have not realised that Volvo's best selling model is Volvo XC90 wich starts from 36000$ or 45000 Euro in Europe!!!!

Buick isn't sold in Europe and Volvo is cheaper in the US. In the US Buick and Volvo are of equal status. In Europe there are only Volvo, Saab, Lancia and Alfa Romeo in this category as far as I know. In the US Buick and Chrysler are also on par with Volvo and Saab. Also, the dollar is worth less than the Euro, so $36,000 would be 27,000 Euro. Signaturebrendel 04:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconvenience...but Buick has only one car costing more than 30000 MSRP ,the RAINIER.Volvo in the US sell S80 with 40000$ Msrp(25000 sales expected there;1/5 of total Volvo US sales),XC90 with MORE THAN 36000$ MSRP(40000 sales in the US;1/3 of Volvo US sales),C70 costing more than 39000$(8000sales expected there),S60 costing more than 31000$,V70 with MSRP more than 30000$. What about Buick? LACROSSE(22915$),LUCERNE(262654$),RAINIER(32120$),RENDEZVOUS(25795$),TERRAZA(27295$)

Volvo has only two cars costing in the range between 25000-30000 $:S40 and V50,ALL the other range mentioned above costs a lot more... It's obvious they are not the same...

ACURA is a luxury company and not Volvo?You must be kidding...Just look at the MSRP prices:they are more than 36000$?You set as criterion:"if a car manufacturer's MSP of all vehicles sold is greater than $36,000, then it is a luxury car manufacturer"

ACURA

RSX 20325 TSX 27890 RDX 32995 TL 33325 MDX 37125 RL 49300

The KBB is not a good criterion though...It defines as luxury the mid-lexel of luxury cars and higher...Just look at the source you mentioned [3] It says:"Because the North American luxury car market encompasses a vast range of automobiles priced from under $30,000 to sky’s the limit, it’s helpful to break the segment into easily digestible chunks. Most commonly, we call those chunks entry luxury, mid-luxury, super-luxury, and ultra-luxury. Entry luxury cars usually cost between $25,000 and $40,000, and they don’t always have a luxury brand attached to them. Mid-luxury cars typically run between $40,000 and $60,000, and always carry a nameplate that resonates with image-conscious Americans. Super-luxury cars cost upwards of $60,000 but less than $100,000, and inspire envy in both friends and enemies. Ultra-luxury cars are six-figure expenses guaranteed to land the hottest date in town and the best parking spaces at the trendiest nightspots."

Volvo has not super luxury cars.But does Acura have?No.So you must change your mind and put Volvo at the same category as Acura or downgrade Acura...Just it's not fair...

Finally Volvo XC90 COSTS 45000 EURO IN EUROPE,in the US costs 36000$,so in Europe it is a very expensive car.And it was you that told me not to use money exchange to compare cars... In GREECE Volvo XC90 costs 57000Euro!The average however is that of Belgium.Just see [4]

I have just seen this:you consider Audi a near luxury car maker?Then luxury maker for you is only Maybach or Bentley...

Acura's US line-up is mentioned as being semi-luxury, just like Volvo. Audi is a luxo brand, even though it sells the A4 in the US and A2 in Europe. Here's how the referencing works: The source you mentioned gives us guidelines and KBB tells us who fits those guidelines. Signaturebrendel 23:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ENTRY LEVEL LUXURY CARS

Just see this site that includes a guide for entry level luxury vehicles... [5]

Yes, those are all entry-level luxo cars. I'll incoperate this into the article as a reference for the entry-level section. Rergards, Signaturebrendel 23:43, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Upon the guidelines set by the source mentioned both S40,S60,9-3,159,A4 are entry-luxury sedans.You mention in the article that the US prices set the guidelines on wether a company is luxury or not.So Acura is not a luxury brand and Audi is... As all of these companies' sales come from cars of more than 25000 Euro,they are all luxury makes.All of them!Mercedes or Jaguar are not the same as Audi or Volvo but that does not change that all are luxo brands.Just see that only 10% of vehicles sold in Belgium in 2005 cost above 24000 Euro.The true middle class that can buy luxury vehicles is the wealthiest 20% of a society.Just see the definition for true middle class in the Wikipedia.The belgians are not poor,they have the same income as germans.So definetely these cars are luxury ones...

I wrote the article on middle class here on WP ;-) That aside the S40 is not a luxo car in the US. The S60 may be seen as an entry-level luxo car. Audi is above Volvo in the US, on the same level as MB. Remember that all sections of this article regarding different segments only talk about the US. Also, Volvo does not have one car starting above $40k in the US. In Eruope that may be different. So feel free to edit the section regarding the European market. Also in Germany the medain price was 24,000 Euro, meaning that half of all cars sold in Germany were over 24k E. In the US the median was $26,000. Perhaps, Belgians are smarter and don't waste so much money on cars ;-) Signaturebrendel 01:30, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

As Audi is above Volvo and Acura in the same level as Volvo why in the article you mention Audi as a near luxury maker and Acura a luxury maker?

Finally give me references for 24000 Euro for Germany or 26000$ for the US....I gave you the reference for Belgium...And why we should take into account Germany and not e.g. France?Germany is not the same as the whole of Europe in the car market.Germany is the only European country that there are no speed limits in Autobahns,there are no toll stations.They also buy bigger and more expensive cars than all the other Europeans(compressors,turbos,big engines etc).Go to the same income big countries such as Italy or France and you will change your mind.... You also mentioned Forbes Autos.See the closest competitors of Volvo S40 [6] Eventually a luxury car is not only defined by its price but by its refinement,quality perceived etc....

You didn't give one for Belgium. I'll check the listings that must be an error Audi should be above Volvo and Acura. Also, please add, she should take into account all we can! I just added Germany and the US because thet's the two markets about which I know a lot. I don't know much about the French market and am thus not able to write about it. If you know something I don't add it! Also maybe your right that "Germans buy bigger and more expensive cars than all the other Europeans(compressors,turbos,big engines etc)." Yes that's true-Germans do own more cars than any other Eruopean country. The price guidelines I provide apply only to the US and Germany. Again, if you know more markets and the corresponding price guidelines for these markets add them. BTW: A luxo car is about price and comfort, but mainly price, read the article of luxury good. Luxury is defined economic pheonoma. Regards, Signaturebrendel 03:07, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I am an economist and I know what a luxury product is.And for Europe all these european car brands described as near luxury are luxury brands..I mentioned the classification of car registrations in Belgium in price categories above our Buick discussion.If you have not seen that,here it is:[7]. "Just see the average car spending in Belgium,a country that has the same household income as Germany...it's much lower although Belgium is a car producing country... The biggest price category is that of 14673-17352(19.3%) and if you make the statistics the geometry median(50%)is at this price tag(14763-17352Euro)... The higher 20% of car sales comes from cars that cost more than 22310 Euro."

Well that's fine, then perhaps in Blegium the definition of a luxury car is different. Also you provided me with a "median." I, however, provided you with an average. I think as an economist you are well aware of the difference. As I said before, different markets, different guidelines. In Germany a Passat is seens as the average joe car. Maybe Germans just spend more of their income on cars that the Belgiums. But Volvo is not in the same category as BMW. And in the US where Volvos are apperantly quite a bit cheaper than in Europe, Volvo isn't yet a luxo car maker. It might be in Belgium, but not in the US. So, add a section for Belgium. Here's what the average American spends: [8] But remember just because Volvo isn't lux in the US, doesn't mean that it is not a luxo brand somewhere else. BTW: I wrote the article on Household income in the United States and am trying to make international comparisons, so could you give me a link to those household income statistics you have. Thx. Regards, Signaturebrendel 17:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

The median is always better than the average,I hope you know it... Here is the average disposable income of households in Nordic countries [9]

For Sweden look at[10] or [11] for household finances in Sweden.As I am greek and I live in Greece here are the greek statistics.Unfortunately there are no data in english for 2005.So i give them to you... Households' month total expenditure UP TO 750€/month: 408917 households(10.24%), 751-1100 €/month: 564531 households(14.13%), 1101-1450€/month: 522860 households(13.10%), 1451-1800€/month: 480402 households(12.03%), 1801-2200€/month: 471172 households(11.8o%), 2201-2800€/month: 538062 households(13.48%), 2801-3500€/month: 421341 households(10.55%), higher than 3500€/month: 585689 households(14.67%), Total households :3992964(100%) Generally ou should have in mind that black market in Greece consists 40% of GDP(not included in GDP).It has to be mentioned that 80,05% of Greeks live in their own home.In rural areas this comes at 96.96% ownership-occupancy.In rural areas live the households with the lowest incomes but there is no need to pay for rent...In urban areas it is eliminated at 73.53%(mainly foreign immigrants do not own a house)

As you understand the median household income in Greece is at about 24000€/year.

For Austria see [12]and here [13] You may also find more information here:[14]

Thank you very much, I apreciate it. I will use this data on my Household income in the United States article for the purpose of international comparison. Look for in about two days, when I have some more time. Thanks. Signaturebrendel 15:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Why have you put Alfa Romeo among the luxury brands and not Volvo.Alfa rommeo has not a car costing more than 50000Euro.Volvo has cars that cost up to 90000Euro(XC90 4.4 V8 in Greece) or 53965£ in the UK!Saab the same with 9-7X9-5 is also costlier than Alfa 166 and accounts for abig part of Saab sales.The same for V70 of Volvo.The demand for these two brands increases with the rise of income,so they are luxury brands,not the same as Jaguar,Mercedes or BMW but comparable with Audi,Alfa Romeo,Acura and Infiniti.I have seen a new source for car sales in Europe.Austria boosts a bigger GDP per capita than Germany,just see the rankings...According to the greek magazine 4troxoi which is the most prominent in its sector magazine in Greece and analyses the car sales in each country says that 36.7%of car sales(2005)represent cars with horsepower between 92-120hp,20.9% for cars with 55-74hp(there are such cars in Europe,you may ignore it)and only 24.1% for all cars above 120hp!!!!!The category between 74 and 92hp is not mentioned but it must be the remaining 18.3% of total Austrian sales for 2005.

Well GDP per capita isn't a very good measure of wealth, nonetheless Austria is a wealthy as Germany. In the US there are no Volvos hitting the $90k mark, not even close. Again, perhaps it is different in other markets, so feel free to mention that in the article. You are right if strictly following the definition of a luxury good, Volvo and Alfa would qualify. But with cars one needs to consider more than that. And in the US, according to the most prominent authority on what is a luxury car, KBB and other press publications, Volvo, Saab, and Alfa are semi-lux because they are not put in the same field as Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Infiniti, or Lexus. Of course you may put in a new section where you dicuss all those statistics you are mentioning and where you can describe the relationship between a luxury good and a luxury car. (I did put Alfa back under semi-lux) Regards, Signaturebrendel 17:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Brendel,here is the site from the 'NEW YORK TIMES' suggesting that both S40 and S60 are luxury cars in the US.Just respond me responsibly because you insist on KBB...I think that NEW YORK TIMES are a much more reliable source...Itis mentioned that S40 has a lower price but it can be equipped with luxury items as it is built by a luxury car maker.The fact that a car is not the same as Cadillac does not mean that it is not a luxury car.And there are no semi-luxury products,there are only normal and luxurygoods.Semi-luxury is an invention of your own in the economic theory!

Just see:[15]

The term near-luxury is not my invention. Google it, there are 266,000 hits. Please note that the definition of luxury car and luxury good are not quite the same. Also the NY Times is my national newspaper of choice but it isn't where I'd go for car pricing. That's KBB, which only does car pricing and isn't a newspaper-car dealers use it to determine their prices.
That said, Volvo is not in the same league as Lincoln, Cadillac or Jaguar. I think we agree on that. Now, what should be call Volvo then. Volvo certainly is above the mainstream, I have never argued it isn't. I just think the US section of this article should reflect that Volvo isn't quite in the same league as Audi or Cadillac. So, I called it what the press tendes to call the S40 or S60, near or semi-luxury. What is your proposal? Signaturebrendel 17:37, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you do not trust when buying a car the New York Times is something subjective and no objective,as my opinion is.Even in one site that the car is mentioned as luxury then it is unfair to have a subjective point of view,thus the classification would be false.We should not start arguing wether a site is good or not. My proposal is to gather all the brands at the luxury nameplate and avoid semi-luxury definition.The semi-luxury defintition should be used only for cars and not for brands.Volvo,Saab and Alfa Romeo are all luxury brands but Volvo C30 or S40,Alfa Romeo 147,Audi A3 and BMW 1 are not proper luxury cars as their price is too low for being considered as luxury cars but they carry luxury brands,so they are semi-luxury cars.I have already proved you that for example Volvo sales come in majority from cars costing more than 30000$.Its model with the highest sales is the Volvo XC90,a luxury SUV.Do you think that one would buy a Volvo XC90 at the same money as Mercedes M or BMW X5 if (s)he considered that the product he would buy was not as good as the others.Noway!Think of it.Americans buy Volvo XC90 instead of buying the US made X5,M at the same price!They would not do it if they thought that Volvo products are inferior to them.The same happens with Volvo cars generally.So we should put all the brands refered at the article as luxury brands and make a sub article refering to cars that are not luxury(they are premiums though) but carry luxury brand names.

Okay, how about we add the sentence "These marques may be refered to as luxury brands:" at the top. This way, the subjective nature of the listing is shown. I guess if you can reference it, then go ahead and merge the semi and full luxo brands lists. But please add the by me proposed sentence at the top. Signaturebrendel 19:36, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Where exactly at the top you want me to add the phrase?Finally I have already given you some references for luxury makers.I should also add that Volvo prices are similar with that of Audi in the US.The only exception is only S40 with the 2.4l(170ps) engine wich costs 24000$ but without the geartronic(automatic transmission) which is popular in the US.With that added it costs 25500$...Audi e.g. has not such an engine imported car in the US.The S40 T5(218ps) has the same price as the Audi A4 2.0T(200ps) although Volvo S40 is 4inches smaller in length!In the same length as A4 is the Volvo S60(180inches) which costs 30885$ for the equivalent engine(2.5T,208hp) when the Audi A4 costs 28240!!!!!Volvo is undoubtedly at the same level as Audi even in the US,so it deserves to be called a luxury maker even for the US!!!

Well add the references to the section and I'll add the phrase "These marques may be refered to as luxury brands." I wouldn't say Audi is at the same level as Volvo, it has a more prestigous image and its Median Selling Price is quite a bit higher ($38k vs. $34k). Nonetheless, go ahead revise the luxo car list according to your sources. I will, however, add a note that according to KBB Volvo isn't at the same level with Cadillac, BMW or Lincoln. Signaturebrendel 18:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Why this stance towards Volvo?Audi is also not the same as BMW or Cadillac but you did not make such reference...Please do not add such a subjective note.You may add that some luxo companies are more prestigious than the others in general...and that's objective

SEE here the main competitors of Volvo C70 according to the british Autocar [16]

You may also see this Top Gear article for the all new Volvo C30.See at this page its main competitors:Audi A3,BMW 1,Alfa GT... [17]

You may also see Volvo XC90 Top Gear review which had been given the BEST PREMIUM SUV PRIZE from Top Gear.You are conspicuous against Top Gear?I have to mention that XC90 is Volvo's best selling car(more than 20% of Volvo sales)...

Finally something that you do not want but it really is especially for Europe.Volvo S40 refered as a compact executive car at Top Gear car's review!! See : [18]

"You may add that some luxo companies are more prestigious than the others in general...and that's objective"- That what I intended. I have nothing against Volvo, they do make a fine car. I just don't see it up there with Jaguar, Lincoln or BMW. I do think we have found a compromise though, right. Signaturebrendel 05:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Here I'll add some quotes. From What Car?: "The Volvo is not cheap for a small family car but the S40’s quality and high levels of standard equipment justify the price tag" [19], "[...] good enough to tempt buyers out of compact execs." [20] From Auto Express: "The S40 is a slightly strange car. Volvo say it has been designed to battle with the Audi A3 and BMW 1-Series, but the saloon bodystyle pushes it into the compact executive sector - competing with the BMW 3-Series, Audi A4 and... the Volvo S60!" [21] 4Car says on the S40 "It looks like a Volvo S60 - or does it? Volvo's new S40 is slightly smaller, fitting just below a BMW 3-Series while the S60 slots in above." [22] Besides, this page talks about the C30 as a "premium compact hatchback" and adds: "The Volvo C30 is that new car, designed to steal buyers from the A3, the BMW 1-Series and the Alfa 147 (or its replacement) [...] In essence the C30 is an S40 saloon with 22cm chopped off the tail, reclothed in a three-door body with all-new external sheet metal." [23] On the S60, 4Car writes: "Model-for-model, it's largely in line with the BMW 3 Series - a little dearer than an Audi A4, but cheaper than a Mercedes C-Class." [24]

Another hint: in Spain, the C-Class 200 CDI (122 hp) goes for € 34.150, the S60 2.4 D5 (126 hp) for € 31.400, the 318d (122 hp) for € 31.000 and the A4 2.0 TDI (140 hp) for € 31.150 — the C-Class is slightly better equipped than the other three. In contrast, the S40 2.0 D (136 hp) costs only € 28.700. [25] Considering the lower trim levels, the S40 2.0 D starts at € 26.500 and has another close rival, the Jetta 2.0 TDI (140 hp) at € 26.100.

What I suggest is to refer to the Volvo C30 as a premium small family car, the same as the Audi A3 and BMW 1 Series; to the S40 as its saloon derivative and to the V50 as its estate derivative. Remember that it is said the 1 Series may spawn a saloon version, which would compete directly against the S40. Finally, I see the S60 as the "natural" compact executive car, as it is sized, powered and priced similarly to the German trio, the Alfa Romeo 159, Lexus IS, Jaguar X-Type, Volvo 9-3 and the kind. -- NaBUru38 20:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

An another verification of the fact that entry level luxury cars in the US are real luxury cars in Europe is the fact that Mercedes won't introduce small luxury cars in the US market.Here is an article from Reuters saying that "Maier said a 6-cylinder C-Class Mercedes-Benz -- a posh car in Europe -- was seen as an entry-level model for the brand in North America." [26] (This post was left by 87.203.140.1)
A Mercedes-Benz police cruiser in Hamburg.
Enlarge
A Mercedes-Benz police cruiser in Hamburg.
Perhaps, that's ture in some parts of Europe. But in Germany the C-Class is a Mittelklasse wagen or "Middle class car." Few in Germany see a C-Class as posh. Also keep in mind that at current conversion rates, the average German who spents roughly $23k € on his or her car, may outspend the average American who spent $26k USD on a car with a sticker of $31k. Not all European markets are the same-economics as well as culuture play a role. The people in some countries may very well spent a larger percentage of their income on cars than in another. The article you cited is interesting and refers to the prestige of MB. Mercedes has perhpas more prestige in the US than in Europe (incld. Germany). Here you must also consider that Europeans, or at least Germans, are used to seeing Mercedes-Benz police cars, ambulances, gargage trucks, and big rigs, all w/ the 3-pointed star up front-this already reduces the prestige of the brand to the point where the A-class and B-class are no longer seen as faux-pas. Regards, Signaturebrendel 21:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Virtually all opinion and little can be done about it?

I don't believe this article provides any reliable insight without being opinion based. There are marques that people (myself included) consider luxurious that others may not. There will be some that many consider luxurious vehicles, but by and large if somebody believes a Volvo is, no amount of numbers or comparatives will truly change the perception - since that is what luxury is.

I think the Volvo and Saab brands are luxury vehicles as much as Mercedes or BMW. This is opinion, but then so is the notion that Mercedes or BMWs are luxurious. One could say the Ford 'ghia' range that were available in the Uk were previously a 'luxury' model of their car.

If we are to call luxury are specific series of features (sat nav/heated seats/electric seats etc.) then the ballpark moves on continuously - remember when only luxury cars had multiple airbags/power steering). If we are to go on price-range then we are merely pointing out expensive cars and calling them luxury by value alone. If we are to go by 'prestige' then we are entirely in the territory of opinion.

I'm open to suggestions (not that they are particularly needed the article is quite lengthy) but as it stands I don't personally feel the article is like that of an encyclopedia.

Anyhoo good chat everybody some impressive stuff above! ny156uk 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I wrote this article a long time ago (in WP time). Back then WP poloicies were not applied as strictly and another users was involved in the process with mean many parts of this article are the results of compromises. The ballpark does move, as the market is dynamic and, yes, some Fords and VWs (e.g. Touareg & Pheaton) may be considered luxury vehicles. As for prestige, you're right there is not even an objective definition of what prestige is. So, we go by pricing and media releases, that state certain cars to be luxury vehicles. We then mention those brands and vehicles and try to identify common pricing trends between these vehicles. Price is so important here because the idea or a luxury good is an economic concept; thus the concept of luxury cars is mostly based on pricing-as it is too an economic concept. See the luxury good article. Hope that answers some of your concerns. Regards, SignaturebrendelNow under review! 20:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MERCEDES BENZ C-CLASS

Mercedes-Benz c-class is a posh car even for Germany.Germany is not the wealthiest country in Europe as you may think.The UK,Norway,Switzerland,Ireland,Denmark,Sweden,Luxembourg,Austria and others are much wealthier.It is a common car in Germany as many buy it used in lower prices as it is a posh car for the whole of Europe.When the GDP per capita of the US is 40000$ and that of EU-15 average is that of 29000$(22857Euro) you understand that things are much different than the US and that US prices should not be considered as benchmarks for luxury cars.As an economist I know the difference between GDP and household income but I have given you data for household income and average purchase for cars in some countries...Is France a poor country?It has the same income as Germany.And there Mercedes is a posh car.No matter the sum of money they spend on a car.

I know Germany isn't Europe's wealthiest country. But I have lifed there 60% of my life-time and no one refers to the C-Class as a posh car. (It certainly isn't average, but it isn't posh either) Also GDP per capita is not a good reflection of income, A) its an average, B) Its the economy divided by the number of poeple, and has nothing to do really with how much people actually make (You're an economist you know that). The median income for an American male is $33,000 USD. Beleive it or not rural England has a comparable median household income to the US. France isn't a poor country, but maybe they just spent less on cars, maybe the view their cars differently... there could many non-economic reasons why a car is viewed in a certain way in one country and viewed in another light in another country. In Germany a C-Class is classified as a Mittelklassewagen "Middle class car," an E-Class is a "Obere mittelklasse wagen," Upper-middle class car, an S-Class is a "Oberklasse wagen," upper-class car and a Maybach is a "Luxusklasse wagen," Luxury class wagon. Regardeless of economics, the C-Class which is no more expansive than a nicely equipped VW Passat (the average German car) is not seen as posh car. There could be other reasons, besides income, why the French press consideres the C-Class and posh and the German doesn't-maybe France isn't as much of a car-crazed country?... there could other sociological reasons, apart from economics. Regards, SignaturebrendelNow under review! 15:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing is necessary for the section describing European SUVs:

Mainstream Japanese manufacturers such as Honda, Nissan and Toyota have slightly more expensive prices than European manufacturers like Ford, Opel, Peugeot and Renault, but are considered to be in the same category as them. Automobile makers like Lancia, Saab and Volvo would fall into the near-luxury manufacturer category , as these brands build cars with better qualities than usual.

As we know Ford is an American manufacturer.

Ford is widely considered in Europe as a german firm although everyone knows that it's an american one.That happens as design,build quality etc of European Fords are similar to that of German Cars.Even in advertising here in Greece they are connected with German superior quality etc...

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