Talk:Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou

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I am totally at loss why a guy who lives in Spain and uses Spanish, and on the other hand, is pretender to monarchy (in which context English name forms are used, not local languages) has this article with French name Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou. I would expect to find him under Louis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou 217.140.193.123 16:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Or Luis-Alfonso? Morhange

This is English Wikipedia. As a French version is used of him, and a Spanish, we should choose neither of them, but use English. 217.140.193.123 08:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I will support this move (or Louis Alphonse). The present form is also incorrect French (duc should be lower-case; cf. the French WP article); but WP:UE makes clear that it should read Duke of Anjou anyway.Septentrionalis 16:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Oppose - Louis Alfonso is no more "English" than Louis-Alphonse, perhaps less so. The most English form would be Lewis Alphonzo, and that's clearly absurd. We should use Duke of Anjou, cf. List of Counts and Dukes of Anjou, WP:UE. It is most consistent with use elsewhere in WP to use non-English versions of royal names in circumstances like this one where the name is not particularly in use in English (cf. Alfonso, where numerous Alphonses, Affonsos, and Alfonsos are listed). This applies even more so to a name which is double. In addition, both Luis Alfonso and Louis-Alphonse are much more common in English than Louis Alfonso. Google gives 243 hits for "Louis-Alphonse"+ pretender -Wikipedia [1], 736 hits for "Luis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [2], and only 30 for "Louis Alfonso" + pretender -Wikipedia [3], many of which also contain Louis-Alphonse. The page should be either at Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou or Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, but not at this proposed combination name. This would be the equivalent of referring to Frederick Wilhelm III or Vittorio Emanuel! Satyadasa 14:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Still opposed, but to the idea that he should be listed under this name at all. He has no title, and to give him a title in the article name itself is not NPOV. His father was also called Duke of Anjou by legitimists, but we have him under his given name Alfonso de Borbón Dampierre. The most famous pretenders in the English-speaking world are under James Francis Edward Stuart, Charles Edward Stuart, and Henry Benedict Stuart, not James III, Charles III and Henry IX, not the Old Pretender, the Young Pretender, and Cardinal-Duke of York; we have Clemente Domínguez y Gómez for the sedevacantist antipope Pope Gregory XVII. Of course we should have a number of redirects, including from Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, etc., just as there is already one from Louis XX, his other non-title, but his name is Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez-Bordiú Satyadasa 09:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This is a very interesting argument, which I will have to consider. I'm not sure I understand it fully. Noone supports moving this article to Louis XX, as far as I know; and we have Philippe, Comte de Paris and many other French titles used because of grants by extinguished dynasties. Are you arguing that they should be treated by surname too? Who is Duke of Anjou, if he is not? Septentrionalis 19:53, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, the Orléanist claimant seems to have given the title to his nephew. No one is the Duke of Anjou in the same way that someone once was the Duke of Anjou, because of course there is no French crown. Henri, Comte de Paris, Duc de France sued our subject here for using it, and lost, but not because French courts decided for the Orléanist point of view… the view seems to have been that the Fifth Republic has no jurisdiction over titles that haven't really existed since Louis-Philippe:
It is right in my opinion that all titles given only by a claimant (for example Charles Philippe d'Orléans, who got as said the Anjou title) should not be treated as "authorised" because there is obviously no french crown who could grant such titles. But titles given by a reigning monarch should be fully accepted here mainly in republics who accept noble titles as part of the name (like Germany, France..). So the title Duke of Anjou (see below) is an authorised title, because it was granted by Louis XIV for his grandchild Philip V of Spain ans has never ceased to exist (it has never merged with the french crown) and thus the eldest male descendent of Philip V (today Louis Alphonso of Bourbon, althoug it could be argued that Don Jaime disclaimed also that title and thus Juan Carlos I of Spain is Duke of Anjou, but I have never read that this was the case, he only disclaimed his rights on the spanish crown) has the right to legally hold this title. (Xerxes M.F. 27.8.2006)
L'irrecevabilité tiendrait dans cette optique à l'inexistence du titre de Duc d'Anjou. Les plaideurs se battraient pour rien. (The inadmissibility is accordingly due to the non-existence of the title Duke of Anjou. The litigants fight for nothing). [4].
Of course, this means that moves of a number of other pages would be in order, not because the French state says there are no titles, but because it's not NPOV to use the titles in the title of the page where there is controversy. No one else but Franz could claim to be Duke of Bavaria. Satyadasa 10:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
The second choice (in Satyadasa's original post) should be Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou; when French names are Englished, the hyphens are dropped. I would agree to that; I proposed Louis Alfonso because it appeared to be the most popular in the pre-existing discussion. WP:RM could be clearer. Septentrionalis 18:09, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
The hyphen should stay: Louis-Philippe of France, Louis-Antoine, Duke of Angoulême, Prince Ferdinand-Philippe of France. Create a disambiguation page for those who assume no hyphen. The hyphen will not confuse anyone, and it is used in English, for contemporary Francophones: Jean-Michel Jarre, those with French-derived names: Jean-Michel Basquiat, and even in English names: Mary-Kate Olsen. The hyphen is English, and the article should be Louis-Alphonse, Duke of Anjou Satyadasa 02:14, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Support but I prefer a redirect from the old one still. Louis-Alphonse is named thus because he is the pretender to the French throne by the Legitimists and Anjou is in France. He is not Spanish because he had been denied his right to the Spanish throne by his grandfather. English, though, would make the most sense since this is and English encyclopedia. His titles can be displayed after his English name. My final conclusion is that Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou is the most logical and most in line with other similar French names.
--Whaleyland 03:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Oppose If that's the title he is known under, keep it that way. There is no need to translate everything into english. Gryffindor 23:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Actually, the French form is Louis-Alphonse, duc d'Anjou (note lower case). See the French wikipedia, linked to from main page. And why not follow WP:UE? Septentrionalis 16:42, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Actually, the French WP uses Louis de Bourbon (1974-)[5]
        • So it does; I'm not sure whether it moved or whether I checked another Duke of Anjou. For the point of usage, however, see the text of fr:Liste des comtes et ducs d'Anjou and fr:Jean Ier de Bourgogne. Septentrionalis 19:24, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
          • That's an inconsistency on the French WP. fr:Liste des comtes et ducs d'Anjou lists the claimant dukes under Titres de courtoisie, but fr:Titre de noblesse makes it clear that accepted titles are ones that have been recognized by the Third, Fourth, and Fifth Republics, and these are usually rather less grandiose titles, like Marquis de Montalembert than these claimants to the throne take, and are not and have not been recognized by the French state. Also note again the legal dispute above. If we use his legal name and point to it through all sorts of disambigs, we will be more consistent than if we choose any of these variants Satyadasa 20:37, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
            • You mistake the point under discussion here, which is simply that Louis-Alphonse, Duc d'Anjou, with a capital D is flat wrong in either language. Septentrionalis 20:44, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
              • Of course it should be Duke of Anjou, the question is whether or not that title should be in the title at all. Why change it to this if it would be better to change it to something else that would both be more correct and avoid the language issue altogether? Satyadasa 21:44, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Consensus?

There are four questions here, and seven editors:

  1. First Name
    • One suggestion of Luis, otherwise Louis.
  2. Hyphen
    • Two for, four against
  3. Second name
    • Two for Alfonso; otherwise Alphonse. I would tolerate Alfonso if it made consensus; but I don't prefer it, and Satyadasa's argument of consistency should be considered.
  4. Title
    • Four for Duke of Anjou, one for no title, one for Duc d'Anjou [sic].

Is Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou consensus out of all this?

Note: the question is not, "is that right?"; this is, "would you, as a neutral closer, close that way?"

  • I Support the name Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou as the official Wikipedia page title, with the others acting as redirects.
    --Whaleyland 21:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose — seven editors throwing out at least a dozen different possibilities for his name is not a consensus. Satyadasa 11:22, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support I think it shows consensus on each point separately, and there is no objection (so far) of inconsistency. Septentrionalis 19:19, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Discision

Page moved. Ryan Norton T | @ | C 01:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Morganatic marriage

According to the article concerning his father, Louis-Alphonse was born into a morganatic marriage. So, how can he rightfully claim the French throne? --Anglius 20:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, France has never been keen on enforcing the status loss in that way. Earlier French dynasts have married under high aristocracy, and it did not hinder their descendants' succession rights. Morganatic marriage is very much a German concept. Shilkanni 11:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Please explain this to me: since his parents marriage was annulled, why is he still considered to be the legitimate heir?

Annulment does not always (and now rarely does) result in the illegitimacy of a child. Charles 21:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HRH in opening line.

I am not sure why Terrence Darnell thinks removing HRH from the opening line of this article constitutes vandalism. Certainly, the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) under the heading Honorific prefixes states: "(3) Styles shall not be used to open articles on royalty and popes. Thus the article on Pope Benedict XVI shall not begin 'His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI . . . ' nor the article on Queen Victoria begin 'Her Majesty Queen Victoria . . .'" It would appear beyond dispute that this article should not begin with HRH which, according to wikipedia, stands for "His Royal Highness." I also note that the HRH was removed from this article previously and then reinstated by someone. Is there some type of campaign to promote this person? Whatever the case, HRH in the opening lines is clearly against Wikipedia style guidelines. Accordingly, I am removing the HRH.

--ThomasK107 07:00, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The vandalism was not in removing HRH from the opening line of the article, but it was in the multiple lies full of hate written by the IP 205.188.116.130 in his/her edit [6].

--Terence Darnell 19:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chambord is a place

Just for the record:

  • Chambord is a place and NOT a person.
  • Henri Comte de Chambord/Henry Count of Chambord or Comte de Chambord/Count of Chambord or Henri/Henry are/were persons.

Str1977 (smile back) 08:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Chambord is a place and a person. "Comte de Chambord" can legitimately be shortened to "Chambord." A good percentage of British peers' peerage titles are places, but we still call them "Norfolk," "Castlereagh," "Salisbury," and so forth. john k 12:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
John is correct. Particularly with individuals such as the Count of Chambord, the use of the territorial designation to refer to the person itself is not uncommon. Charles 20:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
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