Talk:Lorenzo de' Medici
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An event in this article is a April 26 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)
Did he actually win any of those beauty contests??? -- Marj Tiefert, Sunday, April 14, 2002 ;-)
Almost every one to my knowledge -- he was a very powerful and attractive person. --maveric149
- Hmph! -- musta bin having a bad face day when they did the bust then... (Marj)
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- Speaking of the bust, we really need a picture of that here. It's one of the most famous renditions of him. I'm going to add it to the article, since Wikicommons has it. -- Gwern (contribs) 06:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Lorenzo is generally described as being somewhat homely. The pageants referred to are actually Medieval tournaments, in which he often competed in his youth. -- Jnc 19:48, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
What's up with that thing he's wearing? Is he getting a haircut? Taco325i 04:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
I removed this text:
- The great rival family of the Medici clan was the Sforza, the most famous of whom was Francesco.
because a) it's wrong, the Sforza were allies more than rivals, and ii) it's in the wrong entry - Francesco was aided to power by Cosimo the Elder. At some point we should move it.. -- Jnc 19:48, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
There is (in Wikipedia!) vacillation between "Lorenzo de Medici" and "Lorenzo de' Medici" (same for other members of the family). As far as I know, there is in Italian no preposition "de". "de'" stands for "dei", a form which includes the definite article (plural). -- S. User:217.168.172.202 20:45, 27 Aug 2002
- This is an English language encyclopedia so the most common form is "de" not "de'". --mav
This is a little disorganized, because almost all the Medici pages use plain "de", but two (Giovanni di Bicci and Piero the Unfortunate) use "de'". Just to make things complicated, it appears that the correct usage is actually "de'" (short for "della", I think).
The easiest proposal would be to use plain "de" throughout, which would mean renaming the "Piero de' Medici" page; unless someone wants to be really energetic and fix them all. (I'd also like to ditch the redirect from "Piero" - really, it's just a common given name, and doesn't deserve to be linked to him.)
Also, given the recurrence of names through the dynasty, we might want to consider using the form most historians use, which is the full X di Y de' Medici - e.g. Piero the Unfortunate is properly "Piero di Lozeno de' Medici". -- Jnc 19:48, 9 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- He is most commonly known as Lorenzo de Medici in the English speaking world. So that is where the article should be unless a specific naming convention says otherwise. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). --mav 23:28, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Ummm, "Lorenzo I de' Medici" turns up 49 matches on Google, "Lorenzo de' Medici" about 16,600. Didn't you just point me at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), where it says "Use the most common name of a person or thing"? Even "Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici", which you just deprecated, turns up 164, more than "Lorenzo I de' Medici". Noel 04:33, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- Just trying to balance consistency vs. use. I'll change it back since this Lorenzo is by far the most famous. --mav
On the second to the last paragraph there is a link to Lorenzo's brother Giovanni who I believe is Pope Leo X, but the link goes to Pope Leo XI who is Alessandro de' Medici. Is this just a simple typo? I don't know enough about this to be sure and change the link. (jtu) -- User:24.153.226.8 21:00, 12 Feb 2004
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- Lorenzo's brother was Giuliano - he was assassinated when they were both still young, and never held a major post. Lorenzo's son Giuliano (I know, confusing :-) was named after him.
jtu, good call-
Lorenzo the Magnificent's brother Giuliano had an illegitimate son named Giulio who became Pope Clement VII.
Lorenzo's sons were Piero, Giovanni (who became Pope Leo X) and Giuliano. Piero in turn named his own son Lorenzo (how confusing) and this younger Lorenzo's illegitimate son Alessandro was a duke, but never a cardinal or pope.
Hope that clears things up a little.
Also, I vote for the use of "de" because it is indeed and English-language encyclopedia; however, for serious scholarship, it is correct to use " de' " as the abbreveation for the Italian word "DEI."
(crawfoem) -- User:149.150.236.250 13:44, 26 Feb 2004
- Is it possible that "de'" is actually short for "della" - this form is found in other Italian names from the period (e.g. the della Roveres).
- We have chosen to use the "de'" form for the articles because it is the correct form. However, to be encylopedic about it, there are links from the "de" form of the name for every article. Noel 21:02, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Contents |
[edit] De or Di de or di
Basically de would be used in Northern Italy or spain as a connector between generational names. De would be the actual form of a new "last name" in Spain or Northern Italy. In southern italy the Di form is used. I am a Di Lorenzo. My family is from Sessa Aurunca, (near Naples) and we took our name from Lorenzo de Medici. Haven't taken the time to trace whether it is a blood connection or a name given. I visited a cousins home in Sessa,(46-room former monastary with an underground connection to the city cathedral)and know that our family had once been very wealthy. My branch of the family were tailors for the last 150-years or so and we made clothes for the clergy and the wealthy. This trade was practiced after the Italian civil war, which Naples lost. Conditions in southern Italy grew increasingly worse and we came to America early this century. I maintain contact with my cousins to this day. From Royalty to a salesman in America! :-) LOL -- User:172.203.194.38 21:31, 25 Mar 2004
- Actually, the Medici used the "di" to separate generational names, too. So this Lorenzo is "Lorenzo di Piero de' Medici", in full. The "de'" is part of the family name (like the "della" in "della Rovere"). Noel (talk)
The family certainly uses "de'Medici" in modern times, I've worked with one for ten years. Basic Italian grammar: "de" means "of", but combines with the following definite article "il"(m), "la"(f) or "gli"(pl) to give "del", "della" and "dei". As noble families are numerous, they almost always have plural names ("Orsini", for example, being "the clan from Orsino") which usually takes a "dei" provided the following Family name doesn't start with a vowel, as that would create a glottal stop, hated by Italians (dei Orsini, for example, being a complete non-starter: it can't elide into "de'Orsini" either, and "d'Orsini" loses the definite article so completely it becomes nonsense - on the other hand, returning to this context, because M is a soft consonant, "dei Medici" elides into "de'Medici", even though a vestigial "i" remains in the pronunciation). The Sforzas, being imposed on Milan from outside Italy, aren't recognised as nobility, but as a (demonic?) Power, and therefore are the exception proving the point. To take Jnc's point further, Lorenzo's full name places him with greater accuracy in the clan, naming the father as well to remove potential confusing with other Lorenzos in the way you describe: it's simply shorthand for "son of", much like the French usage, "Jean de Florette" or Icelandic "Magnus Magnusson". A relevant example is Giuliano de Piero de'Medici and Giuliano de Lorenzo de'Medici, uncle and nephew, ruler of Florence and Pope, respectively: see the Medici discussion for a fuller Wiki debate. The word Medici means "quack doctor", and the family heraldic symbol, (a minimum of) 3 balls, refers to the pills by which the family is thought to have made its fortune with during the Black Death in the late 1340s. User:Jel 05:32, 1 Nov 2006 [UTC]
[edit] Picture
There seems no valid reason for the image to have been removed Nov. 14. I think it should be restored. Hu 18:40, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC).
Since no comment has been made, I have reverted to include the image again. Hu 19:41, 2004 Nov 14 (UTC)
The chapel called the "Medici Chapel" in Firenze is a separate building, quite imposing and recently renovated, which houses the tombs of the Medici rulers. The smaller chapel, accessible through the main chapel, was designed in its entirety by Michelangelo Buonarotti, and the two tombs it contains are recorded as being the tombs of Lorenzo the Magnificent and Giuliano. I have been there many times. Original working drawings by Michelangelo are still visible on the walls of one alcove. I have not changed the text, lest it be thought to be vandalism, but would like approval to do so. Anthony.bradbury 16:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Is not the second paragraph here, apart from being grammatically incorrect, distinctly POV? Anthony.bradbury 22:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I changed the text; in my innocence I had not at first realised that I was looking at vandalism. But I learn fast.--Anthony.bradbury 23:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Vandalism
Why does some idiot keep mucking about with this page? I have just corrected the latest idiocy. Anthony.bradbury 22:20, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tomb
I have made a significant change to the part of the article relating to the Michelangelo chapel. I have been there many times. Anthony.bradbury 22:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Machiavelli
"The Prince" was written for the grandson of this Lorenzo.
--199.17.27.5 17:55, 14 July 2006 (UTC)bill
The fact that Lorenzo de' Medici ruled the Florantine Republic is mentioned a number of times in the article, as well as in those of the other Medici rulers. I believe this to be in error for at the time of the Medici rule it was more a city-state than a republic. Only after its conquer, and subsequent rule by Girolamo Savonarola in 1494 did it take on the properties of a republic. This inspired the writing of 'The Prince' by N. Machiavelli. User: ?unsigned
The above text appears to be unsigned: my contribution is inserted here, my apologies if I butt in. Il Principe was a job application to Giuliano de'Medici: Machiavelli had risen with the Republic to the post of Chancellor and Secretary to the Second Chancery, the Ten of Liberty and Peace, and hoped his experience would be of more value to the new rulers when the Medici returned to power in 1512 than his previous affiliations weighed against him. In his own words, "I pour myself out as fully as I can in meditation on the subject, discussing what a principality is, what kinds there are, how they can be acquired, how they can be kept, why they are lost": in other words, "you need me to avoid making the same kind of mistakes which lost you Florence in 1494, lost Savonarola it in 1498, and which will lose you it yet again." He did not - could not, in the circumstances that he had already been under arrest - praise the Republic as such, although he does argue that a collaborative relationship between a population listened to by its Prince is an optimal model. User:Jel 0730 1 Nov 2006 [UTC]
[edit] Florence excommunicated the Pope?
I've just copy-edited the piece a little, but I'm confused by this statement:
The Florentines promptly excommunicated the Pope...
Without further explanation, that doesn't make sense to me, because it's popes who do the excommunicating. Perhaps another form of words would better describe what sanctions the Florentines enacted at this point, but I haven't the facts of the matter to hand. Anyone know exactly what this refers to?qp10qp 12:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. What is "excommunicating the Pope" supposed to mean? (condorhero)
In Medieval to Renaissance times, Society was organised in a much more regionally structured way than is now the case. Just as the Medici family took and held political control in the Florentine Republic, so could they, if they wished, assume control of the Church in their area. Under orders, the Cardinal Archbishop performed an excommunication rite. As would be expected, this procedure was not accepted as lawful under canon law in Rome.--Anthony.bradbury 13:04, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Art additions?
the art that lorenzo needs to be added to this page because people need his famous art ,paintings,sculptures, and architecture..
(The above comment was originally added to the article itself by anonymous user 12.4.222.41.)
- Agree that the article could be expanded a little, but I think that it already gives some indication of what Lorenzo sponsored. Could you explain what you'd like to see? —Ryan McDaniel 15:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
One might also include links to the Uffizi and Bargello pages User:Jel 05:57, 1 Nov 2006 [UTC]
2 development thoughts: 1. Is it worth separating the dynastic tree and genealogy pages out from the Medici page? These rulers were more influential in their time, for instance, than the Kings of Scotland, and provided two of the more influential female members of the French royal family (Catherine and Marie). 2. Can somebody please reindex this page and the Medici one? They're becoming chaotic.User:Jel 05:47, 1 Nov 2006 [UTC]
