Talk:Livia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. To participate, improve this article or visit the project page for more information.
|
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) |
||
Contents |
[edit] Serious review required
This article has great factual discrepancies that need to be corrected. Livia was not the Grandmother of Claudius and Germanicus first of all. I will attempt to correct the discrepancies in the article shortly.
Nudas veritas 07:03, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Huh? Surely she was their grandmother??
- Yes indeed - mother of their father Nero Claudius Drusus! --Frippo 19:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Date of Drusus the Elder's birth
Date of birth - cf. Ehrenberg and Jones, Documents Illustrating the Reigns of Augustus and Tiberius [Oxford 1955] p.45 (date of Antony's birth), in combination with Suetonius, Life of Claudius c. 11 (Antony's birthday was the same).
[edit] Marriage to Octavian - chronology of events
Here are most of the key texts concerning the marriage to Octavian (17 January 38 BC),
Velleius Paterculus 2.79:
Hac classi Caesar, cum prius despondente ei Nerone, cui ante nupta fuerat Liviam, auspicatis rei publicae ominibus duxisset eam uxorem, Pompeio Siciliaeque bellum intulit.
Velleius [94] Hoc tractu temporum Ti. Claudius Nero, quo trimo, ut praediximus, Livia, Drusi Claudiani filia, despondente Ti. Nerone, cui ante nupta fuerat, Caesari nupserat,
Velleius [95] Reversum inde Neronem Caesar haud mediocris belli mole experiri statuit, adiutore operis dato fratre ipsius Druso Claudio, quem intra Caesaris penates enixa erat Livia.
Tacitus, Annals 5.1
After this Cæsar, enamoured of her beauty, took her away from her husband, whether against her wish is uncertain. So impatient was he that he brought her to his house actually pregnant, not allowing time for her confinement.
Suet. Aug. 62:
He divorced her [Scribonia] also, "unable to put up with her shrewish disposition," as he himself writes, and at once (ac statim) took Livia Drusilla from her husband Tiberius Nero, although she was with child at the time; and he loved and esteemed her to the end without a rival.
Dio 48.34.3:
...he was already beginning to be enamoured of Livia..., and for this reason divorced Scribonia the very day she bore him a daughter.
Since the dates of Drusus’ birthday (January 14) and the wedding to Octavian are established, the events can be reconstructed as follows:
1. Simultaneous birth of Julia, and Octavian’s divorce of Scribonia (October 39)
2. Now Tiberius Claudius Nero surrenders Livia (six months pregnant) to Octavian, and there is a betrothal where Nero is actively involved („prius despondente ei Nerone” - Velleius 2.79). Livia now lives with Octavian (Velleius 95, "[Drusum] quem intra Caesaris penates enixa erat Livia")
3. Birth of Drusus (Jan.14). Octavian surrenders the child to Tiberius Claudius Nero.
4. Marriage of Livia and Octavian (Jan 17)
Seen in the context of the above, the passage in Suetonius (V.Claudii 1) is nonsense:
The father of Claudius Caesar, Drusus, who at first had the forename Decimus and later that of Nero, was born of Livia within three months after her marriage to Augustus (for she was with child at the time) and there was a suspicion that he was begotten by his stepfather in adulterous intercourse.
It seems that the „marriage” has been confused with the betrothal, and that the two events were separated by three months.
Dio (48.44.), while giving valuable details, also confuses the betrothal to Octavian, and the marriage (passage underlined):
Besides these occurrences at that time, Caesar married Livia. 44 She was the daughter of Livius Drusus, who had been among those proscribed on the tablet and had committed suicide after the defeat in Macedonia, and the wife of Nero, whom she had accompanied in his flight, as has been related. And it seems that she was in the sixth month with child by him. 2 At any rate, when Caesar was in doubt and enquired of the pontifices whether it was permissible to wed her while pregnant, they answered that it there was any doubt whether conception had taken place the marriage should be put off, but if this was admitted, there was nothing to prevent its taking place immediately. Perhaps they really found this among the ordinances of the forefathers, but certainly they would have said so, even had they not found it. 3 Her husband himself gave the woman in marriage just as a father would; and the following incident occurred at the marriage feast. One of the prattling boys, such as the women keep about them for their amusement, naked as a rule, on seeing Livia reclining in one place with Caesar, and Nero p315in another with a man, went up to her and said: "What are you doing here, mistress? For your husband," pointing him out, "is reclining over there." 4 So much then, for this. Later, when the woman was now living with Caesar, she gave birth to Claudius Drusus Nero. Caesar both acknowledged him and sent him to his real father, making his entry in his memoranda: "Caesar returned to its father Nero the child borne by Livia, his wife." 5 Nero died not long afterward and left Caesar himself as guardian to the boy and to Tiberius.
28 04 2006
81.190.70.164
[edit] Suetonius the most reliable?
The discussion here seems to imply that Suetonius (who does not mention the idea of Livia as evil mastermind) is more reliable than Dio Cassius and Tacitus (who do.) What on earth is the basis for such a claim, or for the idea that Suetonius had access to "official sources?" john k 02:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Between ca 111 and 121 Suetonius held a number of palace appointments, especially the secretarial ones of a bibliothecis and ab epistulis. "He quotes extensively from the letters of Augustus, which he presumably studied while working in the palace" (Oxford Classical Dictionary [1970] 1021A.
3 May 06
81.190.70.164
