User talk:Litch

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[edit] Protected

I blocked this user. He requested unblock. My block was reviewed and confirmed by Samir. Further unblock was placed. If any admin wishes to remove this protection, please feel free. Tyrenius 03:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed for a bit to let him explain himself -- Samir धर्म 04:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I placed a second unblock because in my impatience it seemed Samir had wandered off. WHen I noticed he then added a comment I removed the second unnblock. I then asked for an explanation of why Samir felt the block was approriate and rather than allow that discussion and possible education Tyrenius protected the page so further discussion could not take place. In this entire process [User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] has always taken the most punative, confrontational approach available rather than even attempting reasonable rationed discussion. Litch 04:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


Welcome!

Hello, Litch, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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[edit] Domino Harvey

Hi, regarding the above article, could you please cite sources for the various names you are adding to the article as the people who allegedly found her dead? Thanks. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 13:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I did cite, please take the time to read the entire citation before reverting. [1] Litch Mon Jul 10 06:34:43 PDT 2006

I did indeed read that report and it states that a "Peter Dice" found her, not either of the two people you are trying to write into the article. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 13:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Name corrected. Please avoid editing my entries if at all possible, I believe you have begun to take this personally, I have. Litch

I have not taken this personally and I will not refrain from editing your contribtions if you continue to add false information. I would also ask you to avoid using edit summaries to make false allegations about other editor's alleged laziness. Thankyou and goodnight. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 14:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding edits made to User:Sarah Ewart during July 10, 2006 (UTC)

Please do not add nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Srose (talk) 14:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

They were not nonsense, they were sourced and accurate. Litch 15:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
They were a direct personal attack and will lead to you getting blocked if you continue. If you have a serious issue with Sarah Ewart you should present it to her in a civil fashion in order to resolve the problem. Tyrenius 16:36, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Not at all, noting people find her abrasive (as was evidence in the citation and in her own talk) is not an attack, but an accurate description. I even went so far as to modify the comment and remove the suggestion she was lazy (as was made manifest by the fact that rather than correcting a problem or adding to an entry she simply reverted it) since she objected to it so strenuosly. I attempted to resolve our conflict politely and she spit on me lexically so I thought it approriate to give fair warning to any other poor soul she harasses. Litch 02:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I reverted your edits because the information you were attempting to add was patently false and not supported by the link you were citing as evidence. I then came here and quite nicely asked you to please explain. You then became rather nasty, accused me of being "lazy" and began posting personal attacks about me. For someone who claims to want me to avoid them, you sure are going out of your way to make sure you continue interacting with me. I suggest you let it go and move on. If you ensure your future edits are correct and you refrain from making personal attacks in edit summaries and vandalising other user's pages, I am sure you will not have these problems. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 02:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
And just FYI, one of the people you accuse of being my "sockpuppet" is an Administrator. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 02:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Considering that he's threating me and trying to intimidate me rather than let a mediation process unfold I doubt he should be an administrator. I'm new but I am at least trying to follow community standards, you on the other hand consistantly seem to irritate people. I note someone else has a new complaint regarding your editing and that you were blocked by the 3 Revision Rule in the Domino_Harvey entry. The preponderance of evidence clearly shows who is in the wrong.Litch 02:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I have never been blocked for 3RR or anything else. For evidence, please see the block log: [2]. Please cease making false accusations. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 02:28, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
You would have been if I had not been making changes amid your revert war on me. Litch 02:32, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please desist from this behaviour

I consider your behaviour through the edit dispute on Domino Harvey[3] and subsequently to amount to harassment of Sarah Ewart. Since my warning above about your posts on her user page,[4] you have now posted another unnecessarily provocative comment on her talk page.[5]. The next time you make unwarranted comments in this way concerning her, I will block you. Tyrenius 03:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It was my impression that wikipedia worked on concensus and not fiat, I have submitted a request for mediation but rather than conform to the community standards and allow that process to expand you have instead decided to use your power and postion to intervene on behalf of someone who is obviously your friend. You are clearly a textbook example of some of the fundamental criticisms of this venue.Litch 01:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The consensus is that harrassment will result in being blocked. If you behave civilly and refrain from personal insults, then you will not have a problem. Tyrenius 01:57, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not believe what I am doing is harassment, I made no personal insults and instead noted only the feelings of others about Ms Ewart and went out of my way to make such a description inoffensive. You are obviously biased towards a friend (or is it lover?). You were aware of the mediation request but unwilling to allow that process to unfold you instead threaten and intimidate me.Litch 02:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blocked

I am blocked by what I consider to be immature aggression by Tyrenius abusing his perogatives. I would like for him to remove the block and, if he feels it is absoloutely necessary to have me blocked to have it done by a neutral third party. Litch 03:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC) {{unblock}}

  • I'm a neutral third party admin. Explain why you wish to be unblocked a bit further. -- Samir धर्म 03:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The point of contention is whether my actions with regard to sarah_ewart were harassment, I have avoided editing her talk page as ordered to by Tyrenius and he nevertheless blocked me. Litch 03:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You were blocked for then turning your attack onto me as seen above and on my talk page. This includes insinuations about my private life. Tyrenius 03:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

See below regarding my comment to you. I made no insinuations regarding your private life, I mearly was attempting to be accurate as to why you were behaving immaturely in my conflict with your friend sarah_ewart if you objected to the reference to her being your lover (the only explanation I could come up with for such an extreme reaction) you had merely to note it and I would remove it. Litch 03:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Block

You have been blocked for 24 hours for harrassment and personal attacks, following your post above and here, after two warnings. Tyrenius 03:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

My advice was neither harassing nor an attack, it was an appeal for you to act in a mature fashion and resist abusing your perogatives, but you apparently could not. I'll also note you only provided a warning regarding her talk page. Litch 03:21, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unblock

Reviewed the entire situation and I think the block is appropriate. -- Samir धर्म 03:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Explain in more detail Litch 03:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
You called another user lazy in an edit summary, placed an inappropriate message on her user page, inappropriately accused her of sockpuppetry on her talk page (without citing any evidence for the same) and then ignored administrative warnings by User:Tyrenius above. You topped it off with:
You are obviously biased towards a friend (or is it lover?). as seen above
Warnings were given. This is clearly enough for a block -- Samir धर्म 04:09, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
I consider simple reversion rather than a easy fix when she had the information (if as she said she read the citation)lazy, what would be a better descriptor? When she objected to that word I tried to avoid using it from them on, going back to remove it in my addition to her user page.
I do not think my message was inapproriate and opened a mediation request to address it and did not touch her page after she reverted it.
[evidence] of srose behaving like a sockpuppet.
I did not ignore the warning I attempted to engage him to understand his objection and he responded with nothing but threat and intimidation
  • Also, please don't delete messages. I'd take a couple of hours off wikipedia, come back, and contribute again after that.

Thanks -- Samir धर्म 04:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe I have deleted any messages, what do you mean? And since I am blocked, I have no choice, but considering blocking someone you don't like because you can is apparently the standard of behavior what sort of inducement is there to come back? Litch 04:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Regarding deletes: [6]. The block stands for now. If you remain disatisfied, you may bring it up for review at WP:ANI after the 24 hour block period terminates. Thanks -- Samir धर्म 04:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Re: Deletes. I only added a square bracket to a previous post to make the formatting work correctly. As far as I know I never deleted those line and have no idea why they went away. I assume it was just some sort of near edit conflict that happened inadvertently, please do not assume maliciousness.

[edit] Your new post

If a good job consists of blocking a new user for what is at most arguable reasons and then protecting their talk page, what would be bad job? Litch 03:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I regard that post as unnecessary, provocative and continuation of your previous harrassment.

I'm sorry you feel that way, what in particular do you object to? I consider your actions in response to this situation immature, aggressive, and excessive. I really would like to know what a "bad job" would be in this situation, as your behavior untill now has heavyhanded, intimidating, punative and harsh. Litch 03:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I will ignore it on this occasion, so you've had a chance to express your opinion. A continuation in the same vein will, however, just result in a longer block.

And this helps the effort to build an encyclopedia in what way?

We're here to write an encyclopedia, so I urge you to focus your attention on that. Then you will make friends and become part of the community. You obviously have a capable mind, so you could make some good contributions and add something worthwhile to the world.

Tyrenius 03:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you've taken my advice and chosen to act in a more mature, verbal manner, perhaps we might even come to a concensus that doesn't involve you ramming your opinions down my throat simply because you can and I've offended one of your friends. Litch 03:59, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, looks like I spoke too soon Litch 17:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Block

You have been blocked from editing for violating Wikipedia policy against personal attacks. To contest this block, please reply here on your talk page by adding the text {{unblock}} along with the reason you believe the block is unjustified, or email the blocking administrator or any administrator from this list. Note to sysops: Unblocking yourself should almost never be done. If you disagree with the block, contact another administrator.

This block follows on from previous personal abuse for which you were blocked. After your return, and despite a further warning, you continued.[7] Block is now for 72 hours. Tyrenius 05:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This blocked user (block log | autoblocks | unblock | contribs) asked to be unblocked, but one or more administrators has reviewed and declined this request. Other administrators can also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). This unblock request continues to be visible. Do not replace this message with another unblock request.

Request reason: "see below"

Decline reason: "As below the fact that you cannot understand your actions to be a personal attack means that I cannot unblock at this time"

Administrators: This template should be removed when the block has expired, or after 2 days in the case of blocks of 1 week or longer.

This is rediculous, the referenced "personal attack" was a post a made on the [wp:pain | personal attach intervention board] asking for help understanding what I said that was objectionable. I did not make a personal attack of any kind, Tyrenius is apparently engaging in a vengetta to harm me. Litch 17:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

So you don't see accusing another user of "immature vindictiveness" as an attack on them? --pgk(talk) 17:49, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No, I was describing how I saw his actions (and noted that explicitly) and asking if my impressions of the behavior were reasonable and accurate. It would have been the work of moments to respond and explain, discuss, or even suggest an alternate method of expressing such an impression. Instead he just banned me again.Litch 22:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
And how is that not an attack? Dress is up in whatever words you want, you were accusing the admin of "immature vindictiveness". You could have easily expressed your concern that the block may have not been warranted without attacking the person doing the blocking. --pgk(talk) 22:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I was (and am) accusing him of just that, but an accusation is not an attack. Litch 23:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
An accustation is an attack. Since you cannot see that your actions are an unacceptable attack means that I cannot unblock. Continue in this manner after the block expires and you are likely to find yourself getting further blocked. --pgk(talk) 06:31, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Could you please cite something other than your simple assertion to support your position? The [| relevent entry] in Webster describes attack as "to assail with unfriendly or bitter words" (and then goes on to circularly define "assail" as an attack) and describes [| accuse] as "to charge with an offense judicially or by a public process". I will grant that some accusations are attacks, but they are not synonyms. A criminal prosecutor is not attacking a defendant in court. There is a world of difference between the motivations and subsequent responses to the two verbs. I admit I am bitter about the experience I endured, as I believe any reasonable person would be. Certainly if there was a forum where some lattitude for some ambiguity and forbarance was approriate it is a talk board devoted to addressing and defining personal attacks. I did not follow the admin, nor did I make any particular attempt to provoke them, I was honestly looking for constructive feedback and education. Instead I just got banned again. Litch 03:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I gave you constructive feedback and education and you ignored it:

We're here to write an encyclopedia, so I urge you to focus your attention on that. Then you will make friends and become part of the community. You obviously have a capable mind, so you could make some good contributions and add something worthwhile to the world.

I suggest you put it into practice when your block ends, and study what pgk has said above. Tyrenius 16:03, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Whee, if I suck up to people like you I might get them to block people behaving in ways I don't like, that's so compelling and such an inducement. Of course it really doesn't matter too much, as past evidence demonstrates, at the slighted shred of justification you'll just ban me for longer until you can ban me interminably. I've accepted that and while I like this user name I suppose I can find another that you haven't targetted. Litch 23:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MedCab request

We've received your MedCab request to take a look at last week's happenings. I've asked the three other users involved to give me their side of the story, if you could drop by my userpage or find me on IRC, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

Keep in mind, though, that this isn't the time for conclusions, closing arguments, or fish-slapping dances...just trying to find out what happened and what I can do to get things moving again. :-) Do stop by at your earliest convenience. CQJ 17:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Received your message just now. You posted a lot, so I just basically cut and pasted and followed your comments down and wrote as I went. Sometimes, when on an RC patrol or checking a watchlist on an article, you don't really have the time to check a source or a link (hence why we have the fact citation tag or the reference tag) and just revert off the cuff. Also, keep in mind that I'm not lecturing you, picture my comments in a type of grandfatherly voice or something :-)
thank you for taking the time to wade through it, I appreciate both the substance and the tone of your advice
I guess what really got this situation going was what you've admitted to as "childishly allowing [your] frustration" and then heading off to her user talk page and asking you to avoid edting your entries if possible. This flies in the general face of WP:OWN. As editors, once we click the 'Save Page' button, the content goes to the database server and off to merciless editing by our colleagues, regardless of who they are. It is possible that Sarah was insulted by this request (especially with the edit summary you left), while you may have been making it in good faith, please realize for your own wiki-sanity that no one owns anything on Wikipedia, not even technically their own user spaces.
Minor correction, I asked her to avoid me on my talk page not hers.
You are a newbie, so I'll try and explain this as best as I can. Often, we as editors, whether RC patrollers or administrators have to simply be merciless and to the point as possible due to the number of people that really aren't here for admirable reasons. It's really nothing personal, and I don't think it was at the point of harassment - I think your edit summary tipped the scales at that point in time.
What you did do incorrect, IMHO, is when you went to her user page and made the comments that you did. While we don't own our userspaces, it is generally an unspoken rule that one user doesn't tamper with another user's user page unless there is a clear cut violation of Wikipedia policy. What you happened to do comes within the definition and scope of WP:NPA, especially on her user page.
unspoken rules aren't very useful
I understand your position, but what I meant was that the "unspoken rule" is mentioned within the policy pages but it has not been implemented as "official policy" as of yet. Sorry.
Srose saw the personal attack, reverted it, and tagged your user talk page inadvertently with a nonsense warning tag, and he/she has apologized for that at the MedCab case page. If you go look at the pages in question, there was another editor who was talking with Srose at that time (I'm not sure if it was Sarah or Tyrenius). If you look, it was another editor and not a sockpuppet. Tyrenius was reacting to the personal attack on Sarah's user page and was within his scope as an administrator, I'm afraid.
Once you went on about the bias for a friend or lover, and made the comment about biting a newbie, that topped the cake for Tyrenius and he subsequently blocked you. It was probably the friend or lover comment that really nailed that coffin shut. On the unblock, what usually happens is if one administrator reviews the unblock request and declines it, and a second or third unblock request comes in, the page can be protected because each time the unblock template is used, it sends a message to an IRC channel and flags your page as an unblock request, and administrators usually have to have a good reason to unblock a user or face wheel warring allegations by another administrator.
As to everything around the PAIN incident, I must admit that some of your comments to Tyrenius sound a bit snide and border on WP:NPA.
What probably didn't help in this case was your use of the term sockpuppet. That's generally something that a new user doesn't know about, nor has any clue what one is. It may have tagged you as a previously banned user or someone evading a block. From your language, I would not have known that you are a newbie - the only reason I know that you are is I have checked back against your contributions. Anyways..that's besides the point.
sockpuppets were a term used on usenet for years before wikipedia ever came around
Again, understandable as Wikipedia has quite a bit of old usenet users.
Srose has apologized for calling your posts nonsense at the MedCab page. As for returning your abrasiveness note to Sarah's user page, we can't do that. It's blatantly against WP:NPA and no editor in his or her right mind would revert that unless he or she were willing to be blocked themselves. As for asking Sarah to stay away from your edits or you period, I can't ask her to do that, but I'm pretty sure that she will, or any other editor for that manner will, as long as you follow the policy trifecta and keep your nose clean. A slimmed-down version of what I've said to you here appears at the MedCab case, and if you're okay with it, I'd like to close the case as a simple misunderstanding. Thanks for your quick response. CQJ 03:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I think it would help is there were some sort of note about her editorial style on her page for the next newbie's work she casually dismisses & reverts in the way she did mine. I understand it can't be forced and it's obviously that she'll reject any suggestion I might make but I was hoping that coming from someone else might it induce her to at least consider such a warning and stave off any similar future disturbances.
Beyond that the only other issue from this is Tyrenius's behavior. I understand he is a new admin but I have suffered from what he did, if what I said and did were WP:NPA worthy of being banned for four days than his allegations as to my motives in your talk page merits a warning at the very least. Again, thank you for taking the time to consider the situation and giving me the benefit of the doubt. Litch 05:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, really. If we were to put a note on Sarah's page about her editorial style and her "casually dismissing and reverting", then we'd have to do the same to every single RC patroller and copy-editor, because that's essentially what they do - casually dismiss and revert vandalism and mistakes in copy.
As to Tyrenius, I looked at what happened diff-by-diff (er, change by change) before I got a hold of Srose, Tyrenius, Sarah, and you for your sides of what happened. You got the second three day block in my view from going back and messing with him after your first block expired. I'm not sure there's an administrator on Wikipedia who'd not block you in simliar circumstances. But, with that said, there's no reason to suffer from being temporarily blocked. Consider it a three-day Wiki-break, and the only way it will negatively affect your standing here in the future is if you were to descend into another similar incident, that is to say, engage in WP:NPA, with another editor and be subsequently blocked. That is when the powers-that-be place you on the radar screen and start watching for more shenanigans. I'd take this as a learning experience and move on from there.
Once again, welcome to Wikipedia, and if you have future questions, please feel free to leave a message on my talk page. I'm going to close the MedCab case as I feel we've accomplished for you what we can. Happy editing, and best of luck in your future endeavors. CQJ 15:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
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