Talk:Lithuanian 1941 independence

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First, USSR could not have "military occupation" of Lithuania, since it wasn't at war with it at that time, and since Lithuania actually did join USSR at its own request. Second, calling Red Army soldiers "Russians" is, to put it mildly, inaccurate, and insensitive to the otheh nations, making up the army (Latvians, Ukrainians, Georgians, Jews, Belorussians, and so on...) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.220.37 (talk • contribs) 00:29, 23 June 2005.

Fair point about the Red Army. Re: "military occupation" (which you seem to think has a negative connotation), you do not have to be at war to occupy a country militarily. Neither the US and the USSR was at war with Korea when they occupied their respective halves of the country militarily. "Military occupation" is merely descriptive of the Soviet military forces coming in to prop up their regime. In addition, you will find that saying Lithuania joined the USSR out of its own volition is a disputed statement, to put it mildly. It merely was forced to agree to an ultimatum from the USSR in the face of the other alternative of a Soviet invasion (cf. Winter War). The president, Antanas Smetona, was against accepting the ultimatum. You make it sound like the Lithuanians asked to Join the USSR. --Iceager 15:05, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"First Soviet Occupation" refers to the period, while "Joining the USSR" refers to a particular event; these terms cannot be used interchangably same as for example "period of Lithuanian independence" and "independence declaration". Also, unconstitutional communist government of Lithuania, estabilished because of actions of Soviet Union, requested joining USSR; this government was not recognised by Lithuanian president or such. DeirYassin 10:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Provisional or temporary ?

Was it "provisional" or "temporary" government ? --Lysy (talk) 4 July 2005 11:23 (UTC)

Litterally named in Lithuanian "Temporary government", but this wording can also mean provisional government. However, as I seen it is more translated to English as Temporary government DeirYassin 8 July 2005 10:07 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

This title may be significant in Lithuania, but not in the English-speaking world. May I suggest that it be renamed to "June independence of Lithuania", or some such? Noel (talk) 02:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

It is not very significant in Lithuanian either; many different wordings (such as temporary government, 1941 independence, etc.) are used to refer to this that is why I made so many redirects. If you'd want to rename maybe "Independent Lithuania of 1941" or "Independent Lithuania during World War 2" or something would work okish. DeirYassin 08:25, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Is there one term that it used more than any of the others to refer to this period in Lithuanian history books? If so, what's the exact translation of it? If so, I'd like to start with that, and work out what the best English-language title would be, based on that.

I like the "June independence of Lithuania" because it emphasize the brief nature of that government; "Independent Lithuania during World War 2" sounds like it could have been some longer-lasting thing. Perhaps something like "June 1941 independence of Lithuania" (although I guess "Independent Lithuania of June, 1941" would be equally good) would be better, to give a good sense from the title as to what period of history is being referred to.

I understand why you made the redirects, but frankly I don't think many English-speaking readers would look under those titles. You're more likely to get people coming to this page because of a link from some other page. So I think the best thing to do is link to it widely, from all the relevant pages. Certainly all the Lithuanian and history pages which are related, but others as well. E.g. I don't know if it qualifies as an underground government, but if it was, you could link to if from there too. Noel (talk) 01:29, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

I guess June independence is not the best title after all because the government had power through July, and existed for the start of August too. As for underground government, it was an underground government before the assumption of power. Lithuanian "pogrindinė vyriausybė" means exactly "Underground government" and it is the only way how it is reffered to that government before it took power. As for the refferance to period, I think just "temporary government"/"prvisional government" is used the most for this time of independence.DeirYassin 08:28, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, I guess the best title would be Lithuanian 1941 independence then. (I think that flows better than 1941 Lithuanian independence, which is the other choice.) If that's OK with you, I'll rename the article, and fix references to it, etc.

Also, I did a copyedit pass on Lithuanian underground government to clean up the text (I discovered a lot of the text there was duplicated here, so I got rid of the copy here to make this article shorter); I'll do the same for this article at the same time as the rename. Noel (talk) 21:33, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

It'd be ok, but I am not sure if it is according to English grammar (Lithuanian 1941 independence or 1941 Lithuanian independence), I am not a native speaker so I dont know well though. DeirYassin 21:41, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Either one is quite acceptable, grammatically correct, English. It's a fairly close call as to which one is better, actually. (Technically, "Lithuanian independence of 1941" would probably be the most precise, but I prefer a shorter title.) Noel (talk) 05:42, 14 July 2005 (UTC)