Talk:List of transgendered people

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• Removed all pre-2006 and unsigned stuff, plus one unanswered rant from January 2006 to /Archive_01 -- 06:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Move this article 2 Transgender vs. transsexual and others 3 Entry definitions too vague 4 Dana Moran 5 Section titles 6 Mike Hernandez 7 Queen Christina? 8 Grayson Perry 9 David Reimer 10 my edits

[edit] Move this article

When I moved stuff (doesn't the page look clean now ;-) I found somebody had mentioned that "transgender" vs. "transgendered" sometime in 2004. (" When we say "People who have been transgendered", who "transgendered" them? Ortolan88") I'd like to bring this up again; I personally think that this article should be a List of transgender people, without the obnoxious "-ed" at the end. Transgender was coined as an adjective, and I don't really think we say "homosexualed", or "lesbianed" or even "transsexualed", either. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

This article and List of transgender people had merge tags on them (and had for a while), directing toward this article, so I merged them a few weeks ago. This article was, far and away, the more complete of the two; there was very little actual merging that I had to do. I guess I probably should have merged/redirected the other way, huh? Personally, to have the -ed or not, it doesn't make any difference to me, but then I apparently don't take quite as hard a line WRT terminology as it seems a lot of transpeople do. — Wwagner 17:30, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

What's "WRT"? And what does my question have to do with the fact that I am transgender? I merely suggest putting the article under a title I think is a lot better, for the reason stated. That was no criticism of your action or anything, I don't think I ever saw the List of transgender people at all. -- 18:22, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

My comment was not meant as any kind of attack. I'm not out to get the trans community or anybody in it - I'm trans too. But to return to the name change topic, I guess put me down for an abstain due to no preference. Oh, and WRT is "with respect to". — Wwagner 21:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

We really need to work on our communication - neither was I intending to insult or attack (or anything) you, nor you me. Which is kinda nice ;-) I also don't really take a hard line here, if I would, I would have moved the article. Guess we need a few more votes then ;-) -- AlexR 23:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've heard this objection to transgendered before; I say go ahead and move the page, as it seems you are not the only one bothered by it. However, personally I don't have any problem with the -ed, and think the "lesbianed' analogy is a wilful misreading of English grammar. "-ed" can serve a few different gramatical funcitons, one of which is simple past tense for a verb, as in "who transgendered them?", which relies on an understanding of "to transgender" as a verb, and therefore "transgendered" as a past participle. I believe people see "to transgender" as a verb about as readily as they see "to lesbian" as one — i.e. not very much. A better analogy is "the brown-haired woman"; do we ask "who brown-haired her"? A "brown-hair woman" is considered non-standard. Some compound adjectives have multiple standard forms: eg "a v-neck jumper" or "v-necked jumper". The same can be said for "an intersex/intersexed/intersexual person", and (I propose) a transgender/transgendered person. Google finds 106,000 hits for "transgendered person" and 78,400 for "transgender person"; interestingly, the ratio is reversed for "transgender people" (810,000) and "transgendered people" (444,000). ntennis 03:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transgender vs. transsexual and others

I saw that somebody had replaced a lot of "transsexual", "transwoman", "transmen" with "transgendered". It already is reverted, but reminded me whether we are really certain, in all cases where "transsexual" is used, whether "transsexual" is really the correct description (might concern other descriptions as well). I noticed for example:

• Kate Bornstein, transsexual/gendered author, playwright, performance artist and gender theorist
  • Given that on Kate's site she uses gender-neutral pronouns for hirself, I think it is fairly safe to say that "transsexual" is plainly wrong
• Mara Keisling, transsexual/gendered, founder of the National Center for Transgender Equality. Key leader in passing several laws protecting transgender people. www.nctequality.org
  • The website mentioned says: "Mara is a transgender-identified woman" [1]

So while changing "transwoman" and "transmen" to "transgendered" hardly did the article any service, some of the changes to "transgender" (forget that obnoxious -ed) seemed to have been correct. I suspect some more of the "transsexual" attributions are not quite correct, either. So I suggest we check out those again. -- AlexR 07:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entry definitions too vague

The entry defines anyone who is: transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, androgynous, cross-dressers, transvestites, drag queens, drag kings, or hermaphroditic. Isn't that a bit unfocused? Androgynous and drag queens and trangender individual are all over the board. One could count RuPaul Charles, Ziggy Stardust, Placebo's Brian Molko and Alexis Arquette as all valid additions. I would never consider any of these people truly "transgender." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Navstar (talk • contribs) 11 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all, kindly sign your entries next time. Second, what now? No more "truly transsexual" wars, but now the brand new "truly transgender" ones? And you misquote -- what you list is a list of possible self-identifications, but the definition given is "people whose gender identity differs from the gender they were assigned" which most obviously is transgender. So your point was? -- AlexR 23:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dana Moran

Is there a source about this person? I can't find anything about him/her on Google. --D-Day^{(Wouldn't you like to be a pepper too?}) 21:29, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section titles

It appears that the section titles need a little work; we seem to be picking up a lot of living individuals, which belong in "Living individuals" of course, in the "20th and 21st century individuals" section. It's probably just people not actually reading all of the section titles before they post (Hanlon's razor at work here), but having to move all the misplaced entries, well, it shouldn't have to happen. I have added some comments in the markup, but half the time people don't read those either. We should probably rename the 20th/21st section to something else, to denote that the people in that section are dead, but I'm not sure what it should be. "Deceased transpeople"? "Deceased individuals"? "Past transpeople"? Those are just off the top of my head, but none of them sounds very good. — Wwagner 05:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mike Hernandez

The link that you have to Mike Hernandez is wrong. You've linked an LA city councilman who I can assure you is not the person you refer to.

How do I know this?

I happen to be the Mike Hernandez in question - please see http://www.otherbear.com

Thanks!

[edit] Queen Christina?

I will only say that I find it an excessively slender thread that connects Queen Christina in any shape or form to our modern concept of transgendered people. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 13:05, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grayson Perry

Grayson Perry is surely a transvestite and not a transsexual? Haydn01 15:27, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the impression his article seems to give. --Kiranna 07:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, and your point is...? There are other cross-dressers on this list as well. There are more facets of transgendered behaviour than just transsexuality. — Wwagner 17:02, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Reimer

Wikipedia has an article on David Reimer, aka John/Joan, a famous case of failed infant gender reassignment after a botched circumcision destroyed his penis. I think that there should be a link to that page somewhere on this one. Mang 23:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Why? He was born as a man, identified as a man, and ended his life as a man. Rebecca 01:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] my edits

oops, ignore me. I apparantly was wrong about my terminology. Reverting myself. Kuronue 01:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)