Talk:List of recurring Metal Gear characters

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CVG To-do:
To-do list for List of recurring Metal Gear characters: edit · history · watch · refresh
  1. Reorder character articles to a real-world order, instead of a fictional-world order. This means that MGS3 comes after MGS2, instead of before MG, and backstory goes with the plot summary of the game where it's revealed.
  2. Drastically reduce plot summaries. This is a hard-core reduction; no character needs a plot summary longer than the plot summaries in Solid Snake (now a good article!), and most characters don't even need that.
  3. Merge all characters (save Solid Snake and Big Boss) into their respective lists. Anyone who has been in two games or more, at least one of them a Solid game, goes in this list, everyone else goes in the list for their one game.
  4. Remove the infoboxes from characters in the lists. (They're huge, full of trivia, and often redundant with the title and intro.)
  5. Work on finding referenced out-of-universe info for characters in the recurring list.
  • Links to Gray Fox (Metal Gear), Roy Campbell (Metal Gear), Otacon, and Meryl Silverburgh need to be redirected to this list.
  • All of the characters moved around in this set of diffs need their links fixed.
  • All of the infoboxes need to be removed from this list, with voice actor info going in the body and the rest of the trivia scrapped.
  • Sources, sources, sources. Currently, nothing at all in this list is sourced usefully.
  • Many of the characters still need a drastic plot summary reduction.
Archive
Archives
  1. April 2006 – August 2006

Contents

[edit] Cyborg Ninja

Cyborg Ninja redirects to Gray Fox. Personally, I don't think this is right, as there have been several Cyborg Ninjas: Gray Fox was just one of them. Perhaps we should put in a disabiguation page? --ChaosSorcerer91 18:44 07/7/06 (GMT)

Actually, what I was thinking was that Cyborg Ninja could point to a Cyborg Ninja section in List of Metal Gear Solid characters, which would in turn link to Gray Fox here, as well as mention the other cybernetic ninjas. To my knowledge, the only character ever called Cyborg Ninja is Gray Fox. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Essentially, that would be a dab page combined with a short description of Cyborg Ninja's role in MGS. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a bad idea, as MGS4 hasn't come out and that's just a cheap alternative and warped reasoning for Gray Fox not having an article --203.167.171.38 05:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The reasoning for Gray Fox not having his own article is because there's nearly nothing you can say about Gray Fox save for plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I think Olga in MGS2 was called Ninja practically every time she was in the Cyborg suit, and multiple other sources (including the official if I remember correctly) referred to her as Cyborg. Maybe I'm wrong, but oh well. Basically, since Raiden is now a Cyborg Ninja in MGS4, I think it's time we gave Cyborg Ninja its own article, or at least section. I like your idea Man in Black. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:30, 8 August 2006 (GMT)
She was? Hmm, now I need to go replay MGS2 instead of just plowing through the Snake Tales like I usually do when I need a fix. If she was, it'd probably be worth putting a proper dab page at Cyborg Ninja, or at least making a "Cyborg Ninja" header for this list and mentioning each character briefly. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


"In Metal Gear Solid, Cyborg Ninja, a ninja in a powered exoskeleton and armed with a high-frequency blade..."

A high-frequency blade?

That's the proper name of Gray Fox's sword. Any problem? Jonny2x4 18:00, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A cleanup track for the contents of this list and the standalone articles

These lists and these "articles" suck. No two ways about it; they're unsourced, unsourcable, and generally composed entirely of plot summary.

This is what I propose as a cleanup process.

  1. Reorder character articles to a real-world order, instead of a fictional-world order. This means that MGS3 comes after MGS2, instead of before MG, and backstory goes with the plot summary of the game where it's revealed.
  2. Drastically reduce plot summaries. This is a hard-core reduction; no character needs a plot summary longer than the plot summaries in Solid Snake (now a good article!), and most characters don't even need that.
  3. Merge all characters (save Solid Snake and Big Boss) into their respective lists. Anyone who has been in two games or more, at least one of them a Solid game, goes in this list, everyone else goes in the list for their one game.
    • I'd prefer not sticking people into recurring until after their second game is actually released, but I don't feel that strongly. It seems like Bread is good with waiting until the games are released; any other objections?
  4. Remove the infoboxes from characters in the lists. (They're huge, full of trivia, and often redundant with the title and intro.)
  5. Work on finding referenced out-of-universe info for characters in the recurring list.
  6. Once a character has sufficient referenced out-of-universe info to justify a standalone article (which is half or less plot summary/backstory/other in-universe detail), split that character out of the list.

This proposal intentionally disregards any considerations of how important a character is (save in the case of Snake, who already has a GA, and Big Boss, who could certainly sustain at least a GA). If a character is important in the real world, there will certainly be verifiable out-of-universe information on that character.

Characters shouldn't (can't, really) be merged until #1 and #2 are done. If there's a standalone character article for which #5 is already in progress, I'll leave that character article alone to work on other articles that need the #1/#2 work. For example, if someone wants to work on Revolver Ocelot or Raiden (Metal Gear), I'll leave those alone to focus on Otacon and Gray Fox and Meryl, whose articles have little hope of becoming standalone encyclopedia articles any time soon.

This plan will resolve the in-universe perspective issues, which are all but solved (I think only Big Boss still needs #1 cleanup), then the redundancy issues. The merge into the lists will discourage the readdition of plot summary, while centralizing the unexpandable stubs into one useful reference that could later possibly be merged up into a game article. If a character can sustain an article that is more than recapping the plot and backstory of various games, that character can easily be split out again.

Additionally, it doesn't matter one whit how important such-and-such character is to the series. This isn't Metalgearopedia, it's Wikipedia, an encyclopedia about the real world. When talking about importance, we need to be talking about importance in the real world. Characters that are important in the real world can sustain their own articles that are more than plot summary; characters that are not important in the real world cannot. If you think a character is important in the real world, please look for reliable sources discussing that character first, before splitting the character out and writing 30K of plot recap.

If someone has some arguments that address the reasoning behind this plan, now would be the time to bring them out. Additionally, if someone is currently working on adding sources for any currently-standing-alone article, please let me know. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that this is a solid plan, and could be applied generally to any fictional universe. It leaves open the possibility of spolitting out articles, but only once verifiable real-world information is found.

Why are bothering to ask anyone about this, your just gonna do it anyway. If are in a listening mood i say keep the info-box every, good characters article has one (The Bread 04:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC))

Note that he is leaving open the possibility of separate articles down the road. But given the recent deletion debates centered on overdetailed game-related articles, the merge would probably happen sooner or later, anyway. — TKD::Talk 06:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Jeez thanks for that

(The Bread 06:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC))

The infoboxes would be removed because the character lists are near-illegible with it; it almost doubles the size of most of the entries, and is filled with info already in the body or that doesn't need to be in the body. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You made it bigger, and just because you say you don't need the info doesn't mean we don't,it was smaller before you divided it into In Universe and Real World, of course people are gonna figure out that voice actor and motion actor are real world info, it can be made smaller, drop first game, game series (Really unnesecary) and the in universe divider and you end up with a much smaller infobox already.

(The Bread 04:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC))

The infobox was made bigger to serve standalone articles. It was always too large for list entries, and list entries, by and large, don't benefit from an infobox, as they tend to be short enough to be quickly reviewed. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meryl as leader of FOXHOUND

Where is it stated that Meryl is the leader of the new FOXHOUND? - Metal gear ninty 09:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

In the E3 2006 trailer, and in future put your new comments at the bottom of the page

†he Bread 03:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Raiden

Should be a standalone, as he's the major playable character in Metal Gear Solid 2

[edit] False Information

Gray Fox's English voice actor is listed as a "Greg Eagles". What's the source for this? All available sources I have looked at say it is George Byrd, the same man who did the voice of Donald Anderson. He sounds exactly the same as Donald, so where did this Greg Eagles come from? Until someone can find an undeniable source to indicate that Gray Fox was in fact voiced by him, I'm going to change it back to the correct actor.

And don't even think of saying "you remember it wrong". I'm watching the credits as I type this. ;) Village Baka 23:45, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Byrd was an alias used by Eagles in that game, all the actors used an alias (Save for Hayter and Stone)

(The Bread 23:58, 18 August 2006 (UTC))

  • kicks self in crotch* D'oh. Thanks for clarifying. :) Village Baka 04:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Bread is right on this, but we do need a source. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Box

This needs to be settled I just reverted from a butchered new version to an old version, we need to decide wheter or not we use the box, any thoughts peoples

†he Bread 04:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

The boxes are too big for lists (and can't really be slimmed and stay useful), attract inane trivia, duplicate important info from the prose, and bloat all sections, be it for Otacon or the DOD official. I don't think they do much good for the lists at all. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, what if we say created a seperate List character box, I'm just throwing things out there, but It could be feasible

†he Bread 06:22, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I've tried. We could narrow it down to just voice actors, first game, and image, but that's all just in the first sentence. To make it more informative than the first sentence, we have to make it too large. :/ - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'll give it a try, I've got a feeling you may be right though Stuff it, you're right, as long as we are consitant throughout the other articles, I'm gonna get to work on MGS1 now

†he Bread 00:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better images

I found a page [1] with 3D artwork of most of the characters on this page plus all fox-hound and revolver ocelot (old self), however, I cant upload them because I dont know how all that copyright stuff works. And on top of it, the page is owned by tripod.

So, if someone can take care of it I would appreciate

Those are character models from Twin Snakes, which have proved unpopular in the past. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:37, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, No Twin Snakes
†he Bread 23:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

So? I mean, the characters DO look better in the twin snakes, don't they?

[edit] Ac!d

Vamp appears in Metal Gear Ac!d² (I think) Since the title is recurring Metal Gear characters (Not Metal Gear Solid) I think we should put him in here, IMO Drago Petrovich Madnar and Black Color (Kyle Scheinder(sp?)) should be here aswell.

†he Bread 00:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

A ton of characters appear only as bosses for a boss rush mode in Acid 2. That's just a minor cameo.
As for the characters who recur between MG and MG2, why separate them from the other characters who appear only in MG and MG2? I guess they technically recur, but they have much more to do with the characters on the classic list than on this list. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the thing they do recurr and I think only Ocelot (Has his own page) Liquid (Already here) and Vamp appear as bosses in that game

†he Bread 00:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Having things on this list is bad. We don't want them here if we can avoid it. This is the miscellaneous page, the dump page for characters who can't easily fit onto another, more-specific list. If there's a more-specific list that will better provide context, then any character who is here should be moved there. Don't move a character here when 95% of what we have to say about that character is about the single game in which they make a significant appearance.

That's the main reason I opposed the MGS:PO- and MGS4-based moves; there was nearly nothing to say about their roles in PO and 4 as of yet because the games aren't out. When a character has a tiny role in a second game (a cameo appearance in Boss Rush, a brief voiceover in the ending, etc.) please don't send them here. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why not...

Move Naomi Hunter onto this list? She is a recurring Metal Gear character, and we all know that if she isn't here now, she will be put here when Guns comes out, so we may as well do it now. If it's the size of the article that you're worried about, then it can be trimmed down. It's basicly the same situation with Raiden, he was on the MGS2 list until they gave him his own article because he would re-appear in Guns, so we may as well bring Naomi in here ~ The Haunted Angel 22:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I just made a case why not above. Naomi doesn't appear in MGS2 except in the manual, and there's as of yet essentially nothing to say about her MGS4 appearance. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Not in MGS4? She is in multiple trailers for the game, we see her character, she is in the promo art work, we even hear her speaking to Solid Snake about how long he has left to live. It seems a bit pointless not to add her, considering when Guns is released, she will be placed on here anyway. ~ The Haunted Angel 22:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Considering ideally we're giving characters who are actually in released games a paragraph per game of plot summary, that's only a couple of sentences of content at most, and invites useless speculation on what maybe two minutes total of content might mean. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm good either way as long as we go all in, i.e. Zero, Para-Medic, Vamp, Naomi, Sigint, Raikov, and supposedly Sokolov somehow survived MGS3. Going with just one character itself seems a little pointless. We should use this disscussion to get a grsp of what the community as a whole thinks †he Bread 23:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm just worried people are using this list as some sort of status symbol for their favorite character - "See, see! So-and-so isn't a one-off, he's recurring!"
This list is the miscellaneous dump list. Putting characters here should be avoided, because it divorces the character from proper context. Characters who "recur" between MG and MG2 really should go on the list with the rest of the MG and MG2 characters, characters who "recur" between Acid 1 and 2 should go with all the other Acid characters, and characters who "recur" only in a largely unimportant cameo appearance really belong with the characters from the single game in which they have a substantive role. Am I the only one who sees why this makes sense? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Please refraim from mocking everyone, that's very bad behavoir for a supposed "Admin" and making out that what you think is so much more important that what others think, and that's just your interperatation of the list Haunted Angel as a different one and so do I, none of our opions are wrong or not valid they're just different. Since there are two people who think that putting people in this list is "good" and one who thinks it is "bad" I think we can safley ignore that theory and get back to the real issue here of weather or not we should bring Zero, Para-Medic, Vamp, Naomi, Sigint, Raikov, and supposedly Sokolov back to this list, which I am cool with but have no strong feelings toward it either way †he Bread 23:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm arguing that your interpretation is wrong. That's not mocking you or bad behavior, and opinions can be wrong. We shouldn't be moving anyone here until it becomes a significant problem for navigation to have them in the lists for their first game, for the reasons I listed above. Feel free to address those reasons whenever you like. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello,

I am a anonymous user who has been reading Wikipedia articles for the past few months now (particularly the Metal Gear related ones) and in recent times it has become clear to me that there are there main users here at the Metal Gear pages, A Man In Block, Jonny2x4 and the Bread, (The three of you mirror Solid Snake, Solidus Snake and Liquid Snake nicely, lol). There is also a user called Stell359 who has done amazing work at the Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater page, The Haunted Angel i've also noticed frequently editing the Metal Gear related pages. I know I've missed out some other contributers but for what I'm saying they are not important. I've noticed that the three main users I described above are always at each others throats (I read the whole Talk:Solid Snake thing and couldn't stop laughing. Another thing I noticed was the Wikiproject about Computer and Video Games, and here's where I am going with this, I think that there is so much work to be done on (pretty much) all the Metal Gear pages that they may benefit from having a Metal Gear Wikiproject, because I am an Anon with no ambition to sign in and get involved with all the arguing that goes on here, I can't start it, but prehaps one of you might want to start one, I think it would be beneficial to the Metal Gear pages and help you all focus on an exact goal.

Thankyou

Might be a good idea, why do I have to be Liquid though? As for A Man in Block, you say my interpretation is wrong, I say your interpretation is wrong, we get no-where, and this is mocking both me and Haunted Angel "See, see! So-and-so isn't a one-off, he's recurring!" plus you're getting preacy again, we have been adressing them and your just ignoring them. Ahh! This is exactly the same as before, if you bring back just Naomi, i'll revert, If you bring her, Vamp, Para-Medic ect I won't there you go. P.S. I'm gonna think about starting that Wikiproject †he Bread 00:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, no making fun of Liquid. Cam Clarke is the man.
As for a Wikiproject, you'd probably be better off bringing it up as a task group over at WP:CVG, since we're already using most of their tools anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I've got nothing against Cam Clarke but Liquid is a bit of a dick, I've got nothing else to do but wait for the peer review to expire for Rocky so how would I go about bringing it up as a task group at WP:CVG? (Of which I am not a member) †he Bread 00:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I forget if I'm technically a member of WP:CVG myself, but it's not like it matters. Just go and ask them on the talk page. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Alrighty, cheers

†he Bread 01:03, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is stupid. So you will have Mei Ling and Meryl Silverburgh on here, and not Naomi? This is rediculous. Meryl is in the trailers for even less time then Naomi, and it sounds to me that Naomi with have a critical part in the game, as she explains how long Solid has to live. Mei Ling is only in a single game (and I doubt the very brief cameo appearance of her in Sons counts), and yet she is on this page, while she has not even appeared in any trailer I have yet seen. Seriously, I cannot understand how you would have it this way! Personally, I think either Naomi should be added to this article, or you may as well delete the whole thing ~ The Haunted Angel 16:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Meyrl appears in Substance, Mei Ling in Substance and Ghost Babel, that's why they are on there. Again I have no problem with you adding Naomi as long as you add, Zero, Vamp, Para-Medic, Sigint, Raikov and (supposedly) Sokolov

†he Bread 23:12, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't recall Mei Ling in Substance, but I'll take you're word for it. Also, I do not think that Meryl's (and in turn, Mei Ling's) appearance in Substance would count, as it is a non-canon side story, (and it turn, Ghost Babel). But I will add the other characters on here when I get the time, but why Sokolov? He is pretty dead, as I recall (I'm guessing that Raikov survived Snake Eater, and will be in Portable Ops?) The Haunted Angel 23:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Raikov is returning I always kill him when I play MGS3 so I think it's pretty dumb that he is comming back but apparently Sokolov has been confirmed to have survived, (ask J2x4 he added the info on Sokolov returning to the MPO page) which also is unusual because I am playing the tourture bit of Snake Eater now and Volgin says "I guess he's dead" and EVA starts crying

†he Bread 00:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Characters should have have detailed information about them, they shouldn't just have a breif overview. Especially Meryl, she has information about her outside MGS and you guys shouldn't be shaving it down so horrifically. --Stripedtiger 03:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with you, I am a huge fan of Metal Gear and pretty much all the characters on this list have enough backstory to be standalone articles, and I'd love them to be like that. But I am also a Wikipedia user and the rules on wikipedia state that plot summary should be kept to a minimum and we should focas on real world stuff.

†he Bread 03:49, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Otacon

I've been putting this off a while but I can't any longer. This is just my opinion, but personally I don't think that Otacon should ever have been merged into here. I liked it better when he had his own article. Basically, ever since MGS, Otacon has been a main character. He backstory was grately expanded in Metal Gear Solid 2, and I think that there is enough info on him for him to have his own article. I always thought that if a person appeared in all of the games, he is considered the main protagonist or antagonist, if a person appeared in three or more of the games, he is considered a main character, and if he appears in less than that, he is considered a supporting/recurring character. Otacon has, as of Guns of the Patriots, appeared in three. --ChaosSorcerer 11:49 10/7 GMT

He's appeared in two games, then, as one is released. More importantly, there's nothing to say about him that isn't just plot summary. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 14:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Thing is if yo de-merge Otacon you pretty much have to de-merge Campbell who has appeared in 4

†he Bread 00:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] why isn't naomi hunter a recurring character?

if she is going to appear in MGS4 why isn't she a recurring character --206.207.175.163 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Because MGS4 hasn't come out yet

†he Bread 22:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order

Someone has moved the characters order around into something that resembles the order in which they recurred. But with this order Jonny would be before Meyrl and other things would ocurr. So I am going to put my in-universe hat on and re-order them into what I belive is a better and more representative of each characters importance order

†he Bread 22:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gray Fox Article?

Now that Frank Jaeger / Null / Gray Fox has appeared as a major character in a majority of the canon Metal Gear titles (4/6), anyone else think he deserves his own article again? Olga has her own place on the MGS2 page, and Raiden has his own article. I don't think a "Cyborg Ninja" article is really appropriate, especially since Olga isn't even a cyborg. A trivia note somewhere that it's a recurring theme in Metal Gear would probably be better. WtW-Suzaku 02:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Deserve, schmeserve. Where are the references from which this proposed article is going to be derived? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frank, MPO, REALLY a retcon? Maybe not...

Near as I can tell, it's only a retcon as far as Millenium's Official Mission Handbook guide and the assumptions of many fans is concerned. Despite being "official", the Handbook isn't exactly the best source on character biographies, as it contains fabrications for the sake of elaboration.

After going back and checking the game scripts, nothing spoken in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake or Metal Gear Solid actually contradicts his past in MPO. Seriously, go look at the scripts yourself. MG2:SS doesn't say he was a child when he was placed in a Vietnamese labor camp, it just said he was living there after the war. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate that he can't go back to Mozambique after MPO. In fact, him going there to try and get revenge sounds fairly plausible to me... WtW-Suzaku 02:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


WARNING: LONG, LONG POST ABOUT POLITICAL HISTORY, FOX'S HISTORY, MGS SCRIPTS, AND HOW KOJIMA HAS SCREWED UP EVERYTHING
It's possible. It is implied in Metal Gear 2 when Fox compares himself to the war orphans in Zanzibar, but the idea that it's been this way the whole time does make SOME sense... Portable Ops correctly identifies the start of the Mozambican Revolution as 1964, in which Fox is supposed to be a member of FRELIMO. In Metal Gear 2, Fox says that he was a member of RENAMO, which was an anti-Communist resistance group in the Mozambican Civil War in the 1980's. Mozambique has had history with its neighbor South Africa, which would easily explain Fox's German-speaking and extremely light skin and hair as his descent from the Boers, who reached Mozambique.
But, there are some problems with the politics involved. Mozambique's government supported rebel groups in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa. RENAMO, on the other hand, was funded by Rhodesia and South Africa. This all clearly connects to Outer Heaven - 200km south of Salzburg, South Africa - and Naomi - whom Fox found in Rhodesia during the '80s and took back to Mozambique -, right? Problem: Fox, as a RENAMO soldier, would have been supported by Rhodesia in the 1980's. Yet Fox killed Naomi's parents (Indian laborers) in an attack on a Rhodesian village. Not only that, but South Africa had apartheid going on. Fox, as a half-white who experienced mass racism, wouldn't have been likely to accept help from a government supporting extreme social segregation. That also makes Big Boss receiving help from them unlikely; rather, it's implied that he helped Fox when he was captured because of their prior friendship. The third political problem is that Fox's rebel group as a child, FRELIMO, actually became the Communist government of Mozambique in 1975; the same government that RENAMO was fighting against. That's not exactly "revenge."
Finally, there's one huge problem considering the times. Let's say that Fox was in his early adolescence in 1964, and a late teen in 1970, as Portable Ops claims. Let's lowball it and say 16 years old in 1970, at the very least. When Fox found Naomi, it would have to have been, at least, 1980 when he found Naomi. The very youngest is 26. Both Fox and Naomi mention him being young, but 26 at the youngest seems pushing it. Now let's give the upper limits: 19 in 1970, finding Naomi in 1986, the end of the war. Meaning that Fox has to have 26-35 years old. That's starting to push "young." So much so that it flies in the face of what Nastasha's book in MGS2 states. It plainly changes Naomi's phrasing from "young" to "a child soldier," and then goes into a short passage about child soldiers in civil wars. But Naomi's book rephrases a lot of the dialog (and spells Jaeger as Yeager, though that's an easily forgivable mistake), so it's possible that it's just supposed to be her forgetting it or something.
So in all, Fox's status and his history are far too muddled to really define what counts as a retcon or not. Everything about it seems to sync up with something else while disagreeing with another. Him being a child soldier in Mozambique works with MGS1 and MPO, but the dates are 20 years apart. Him being an older soldier in Mozambique works in MG2 and MPO, but the age contradicts MGS1. And the politics are completely contradictory of what you'd expect.
Some of it can be attributed to Kojima's tendency to fiddle with things from past games, but overall it seems that the only consistent themes are that he spent a lot of time in Southern Africa in Mozambique and history as a child soldier. So it's really useless to try an article about it until the games spell out a modern official timeline of Fox's life from the 1964-1990. And as you can clearly see from my huge monstrosity of a post, talking about it just gets confusing and would take up WAY too much space. --04:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Smashedty
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