Talk:List of people who left Islam

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 5 Nov 2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Contents

[edit] For anyone who thinks this page should be Deleted, read this

Undoubtedly, there will be many "people" or a group of people who will panic and want this page deleted as soon as possible. Now, List of converts to Islam already exists and so this is a list created just like that list, of Notable people who have left Islam. Now relax, spare yourself the trouble and dont nominate it for deletion because it wont be deleted. Thank you. --Matt57 06:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

As noted on Category_talk:Former_Muslims: ... one possible reason for concern might be that renouncing Islam is a death-penalty offense under Islamic law, and that people have had fatwa death penalties declared against them, or have actually been killed, for statements or actions deemed "disrespectful" to Islam. Under these circumstances, putting this category on such a prominent website might well be seen as increasing the risk of death for those listed on it. The same is not true for a category of converts to Islam. I make this comment not in advocacy but as a possible answer to your question. -- SAJordan 07:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I knew people would somehow try to get this page deleted. Now, people only from your group will want this page deleted. The fact is, these people who have left Islam are already out there. People already know about their apostacy. Someone tried to get the Category deleted and it wasnt deleted. See you there on the CFD page.--Matt57 14:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
What "your group" do you attribute to me? And why do you allege that I "will want this page deleted"? You asked why people were concerned about this topic, and I undertook to answer your question — not in advocacy, as I said above. -- SAJordan 19:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Followup: after posting the above, I went to the deletion vote page where you eloquently and persuasively argued that other lists should also be deleted. You've convinced me. So I've just joined "your group" favoring deletion. Congratulations! -- SAJordan 20:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
So let me ask you: Whats wrong with List of converts to Islam? Why do you think it should be deleted? lol. I only said that IF this page is deleted, THEN so should be the others. I'm not saying that these pages should be deleted, period. I'm only arguing for a fair treatment. Now, I think these pages should exist by all means - just like the public thinks on that Voting page. --Matt57 14:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
It was the point at which you said — ... I will request the deletion of other lists as well such as List of Muslims, and its many Sub Lists which are linked on that page. If somehow List of Muslims page is also not deleted, I'll take this matter up to Arb Com. — that convinced me. "Fair treatment", after all. -- SAJordan 15:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair treatment aside, you're not telling me why you think its OK to delete List of Muslims or List of converts to Islam.--Matt57 15:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for improvement

If possible, can you give a short 1-2 sentence explaination on why or when these people converted, or who they are.--Sefringle 22:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It also must be sourced to assure we're not "outing" people.--T. Anthony 12:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we need to improve this article and display information in a better way. First by profession, then an alphabetical list and then more if possible. Tabulating and pictures would be nice if possible. Infact, right now I can think of a picture of Nonie Darwish, she has one on her page. Pictures will make this page look nice. We have to improve this page fast because the "others" (you know who) will want to get it deleted. The "Former Muslims" category was a target of Deletion as well. --Matt57 14:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I got Nonie's picture in. You guys, bring in more pictures too. There's a great Shoebat picture on the internet for which I've asked permission. See how nice the page looks with pictures? And this is very important for this page considering how dangerous it is to convert out of Islam. I think it would be pertinent to note at the top of the page that converting from Islam is a death penalty by Sharia law (or hadith etc). I'll see what I can do sometime. Meanwhile, please make some more improvements. --Matt57 14:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List orders

Since this is a list, it should be a list by:

  • Alphaphabetical order
  • Profession
  • Country of Origin

It would be nice if we can have a table which can sort on a click. I wonder if thats possible here. --Matt57 16:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I added some annotation in a few places, this is acceptable or even desirable, and also more sections. I'll try to alphabetize the sections a bit better here soon. A table is neat, but also a lot of work. Sorry to tell you I'm not committed/interest enough in this article to do that, but good luck.--T. Anthony 16:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for the sections. I hope others join in as well. I can handle making the table if you tell me what we should put there.--Matt57 04:54, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
It depends on what you want to do with a table. In a list like this I think a section on their current religious status is a natural. For example what they converted to or if they're now secular-humanists or atheists. In cases where it's not clear, including those where they're uncertain for themselves, you can put "uncertain" or "undefined." A section for sources is also a good idea as it reduces the chances of listing people who don't want to be listed. Other stuff, like a section for pictures and such, depends on how much you want to do. Most of the lists at Wikipedia:Featured lists#Religion and beliefs are tabled and can give you a sense of how to do it.--T. Anthony 05:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] relevance?

what is the reason for having a "list of people who left Islam"? did they leave Islam because of Islam? or did they convert to X because of X? where is the precedence for having "list of people who left X"? simply, if an ex-Christian converts to Islam, he is placed in the "List of converts to Islam" and not duplicated in the "list of people who left Christianity", and neither is any other convert duplicated in "list of people who left Hinduism", "list of people who left Athiesm". who says they converted to another thought through negating their own? ITAQALLAH 04:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ali Sina is notable with respect to Islam articles (but not Pokemon articles).

The following text is suggested and is being removed usually by saying he is non-notable and non-existant.

This is wrong as with respect to apostacy and Islam he is very relevant. Pseudonymity is no grounds for rejection as there is precedent that Apostacy in Islam can have inhumane consequences. Obviously what Ali Sina thinks of Pokemon is not notable as he hasn't commented on it before. I suggest we reword to,

as that removes the wikilink around his name. Ttiotsw 04:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article should be renamed to List of ex-Muslims

Because we have other lists like:

So for consistency, we should have this renamed to: List of ex-Muslims. --Matt57 20:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree it would be a better name. Ttiotsw 05:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
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