Talk:List of oldest continuously inhabited cities
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Banaras aka Varanasi is also one of the oldest cities in the world, please do check and if valid add to this list --Si42 15:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] from brittanica
brittanica lists varanasi as the oldest city in the world. your views on this.
nids 05:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
- I dont have a view on it - do you have the source? The online article doesnt seem to say that [1] stating instead that it is "one of the oldest continually-inhabited cities in the world" (the Damascus source - also from Britannica - states that it is "believed to be the oldest continually-inhabited city", by the way). If you're using a hard-copy of Britannica, can we have the edition? Of course, there's nothing to stop you just changing it, it wouldnt be the first time someone has just done that - things like this do tend to be particularly prone to petty nationalism and religious bigotry from all sides (not that I am suggesting you are a nationalist or a bigot) which is one of the reasons I wanted this article deleting in the first place.
--Si42 18:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
well the answer to question, why i havent changed this lies in your answer. that if i had done it, it would have seemed out of extreme nationalistic views and bigotism or even worse a spam.
if it is such a big problem to verify the authenticity of informations given in this article, i would also support the removal of such article from wikipedia. or we can have an disclaimer on top of the page, where it shall say that the contents of this page cannot be verified.
nids 08:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
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- Fair enough, that makes sense - please excuse my attitude there. I have already requested that it be deleted and was defeated in the resulting debate as the rest of the AfD crew felt that the table could be verified (I felt that the archaeology was more than a little 'fuzzy', as well as the definition of the 'urban life'). However, I won't be requesting it again (at least not for a while) as I dont want this to appear to be a chip on my shoulder. I did write a pretty long disclaimer at the top (above the table!) although I doubt most people bother reading it. To be honest, I am really, really sick of this page and am far from satisfied with it (Personally, I doubt Byblos is 'older' than Damascus but can't face a revert war) - perhaps a fresh contribution might help? (Hint hint) --Si42 10:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
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- I have moved Varanasi back down the table again because the source that it is linked to uses the words "more than 3,000 years. If people are going to accept nationalistic propaganda, and attempt to push it here, they should at least be bothered enough to find an article that supports what they are saying. Sigh. --Si42 15:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Oldes Cities
Arbil (Erbil) in Iraq is considered to be at least 4000 years old. Please add to your list.
- Cholula, Mexico is the oldest continually inhabited city in the Americas. "From two separate villages settled in 1700 BC, it grew to one of the largest towns in the region." It's not as old as many of the other cities but at 1700 BC it makes the cut.
Source - http://www.geocities.com/atlantis01mx/puebla_tlaxcala/cholula.htm
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- Put it in then! ;) --Si42 09:48, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Improvements Necessary
Right, since the community unanimously disagrees with me regarding deleting this page, I have taken it upon myself to attempt to get it up to a semi-reasonable, semi-factual standard and adding a load of notes explaining just how un-definitive the whole ranking system is and how fuzzy the archeology is when it comes to dating settlement times.
Things we need to do:
Define the terms of the list better, and put the definition in the article.- Get sources for the data, and quote them.
Write a dsiclaimer pointing out how ridiculous and un-definitive the whole list is.Change the name of the file to "List of the Oldest Cities in the world".Perhaps add some pictures, to run along the right-hand side, as in the "World Cities" article.Come to think of this, I dont really see the point in doing it.
- Updated the table, going mostly on the data that was present on each city's own page - I am hoping that there will be sources cited there although there may well not be. Anyway, I think these ages are relatively correct 'ballpark' figures for serious human habitation and construction in the area - certainly much better than the previous set, which was completely off the wall and in some cases just outright wrong (eg, Cairo 3,000BC (!), Zurich 3,000BC... madness). I also need to go through and look for a source stating continuous occupation for (at least) Byblos, Fayoum and Jericho (I am doubtful of the last one, although I think to remove it will need a citation because so many people will be expecting to see it here). I am also waiting for the "Arbil/Iraq/Kurdistan is the best" brigade to show up and come up with some crazy figure for Arbil (c. 15,000 BC) - perhaps we could put some notes in, pointing out that the site of the present day city possibly has been occupied by people longer than Damascus, although not as a city per se. --Si42 11:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure if Gaziantep should be here either - I read here [2] that the old city is 12km to the north of the new one. Meaning they are not on the same site and therefore are not the same city of the purposes of this. Related to this, I have accepted cities that have changed names but remained on the same place, although this is of course, perfectly arbitrary. --Si42 14:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rename
After the AfD is closed, the article should be moved to the same title in lower-case, per naming guidelines. youngamerican (talk) 01:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Done now, and sorted out the redirect. Sorry about that, this is the first page that I've done any serious editing to. --Si42 11:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article for deletion
Since I was the one who nominated this article for deletion, and not a single other user has come out in favour, I posted the resolution that I do what I can to better the article and remove it from the list. I am therefore removing the AfD tag from the article header. The verification tag should stand (I believe) until all sources are verified. --Si42 00:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Oldest cities (aeropagitica) (talk) 21:48, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Byblos
The article claims Byblos dates from 3000-4000 BC... From what i know, and have read in other articles on wikipedia, it's actually 5000 BC. I clicked on the link for the source of the numbers in this article, it says "Although its beginnings are lost in time, modern scholars say the site of Byblos goes back at least 7,000 years."... a simple calculation gives us 5000 BC (2000-7000= -5000). The information in the article doesn't even match the one in the source. When "http://www.middleeast.com/byblos.htm" says 3000-4000 BC, it's talking about the Chalcolithic period which is not the first one, as Byblos started during the Neolithic.
- The criteria I was using was presence of "urban life" rather than "signs of settlement" which is clearly stated at the top. If you want to change the criteria, go ahead, but you will have to rewrite the whole page from scratch and will come up with wildly different, and much more unverifyable results. Nevertheless, going from the source, the age should read 'before 3,000 BCE'. --Si42 14:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Locations
Someone changed the locations of Jericho and Gaza to read Palestinian Authority - which I have changed to read "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" respectively, since these are more correct in a geographical sense, the Palestinian Authority being a political entity, of course. I have also changed the heading "Country" to read "Location", as the broader term might help prevent nice things such as edit wars.
[edit] Delhi
Delhi/ Indraprastha/ Hastinapur in India is continually inhabited since 5000 BC. Please this to your list
- Actually, no archaelogical findings support this claim. If there are some, please give the source. You can yourself add Delhi, if you have reliable source for this.nids 16:47, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
