Talk:List of notable brain tumor patients

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Featured list star List of notable brain tumor patients is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute.
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Contents

[edit] About the image

Someone tried to remove the image of Elizabeth Taylor because they thought it was purely decorative. I added it after reading Wikipedia:What is a featured list?. That guideline recommends an appropriate image. The images at featured lists List of Formula One World Drivers' Champions and List of spacewalks and moonwalks served as models here.

I sought a image under GNU license, preferably of a long term survivor. Elizabeth Taylor met these rquirements and had the advantage of worldwide recognition. Other possibilities might have been unfamiliar outside a particular professional field or geographic area. I believe the caption explains Elizabeth Taylor's factual relevance. Durova 19:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

In the wikipedia article naming conventions, the rule about list articles specifically says not to include the words "notable", "prominent", etc., In this respect wikipedia has a single rule: if a person has a wikipedia article, he is notable (or vice versa). While the "definition" of the list reasonably includes the criterion of notability, as I see it, the article title should be List of persons with brain tumor ("patient" is a wrong term as well. Some notable cases were diagnosed BT only posthumously). Mukadderat 22:38, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you name any person on this list who was diagnosed posthumously? Durova 22:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Also, I've been unable to find the article you mention. Please provide a link. Regards, Durova 22:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

The issue re: naming of this article has been discussed on Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of people with epilepsy. Some suggestions have been proposed:

  • List of brain tumor patients – Drop the "notable" as per guidelines.
  • List of people with brain tumor – Drop "patients" as not everyone is a patient, and the word implies a medical POV.
  • List of persons with brain tumor – As above.

Other suggestions would be welcome as this is a difficult thing to get right. I suspect whatever is chosen will be a compromise to some extent. Colin Harkness°Talk 13:14, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Your points are well taken. I followed the customs of "people" lists, which often skirt the edges of that guideline (which I suspect is in need of review). The practical matter is that any extension this list beyond public figures, while possible within WP:V, would dilute its usefulness and enter the realm of questionable taste. Also, I definitely defend the "patients" designation within the title. Although I also compiled a larger list of public figures who were immediate family to a brain tumor patient and donated the data to leading brain tumor charities, such information ought to be handled with dignity and care. I do hope more of those people step forward and lend their celebrity to the search for a cure - but irresponsible broadcasting of their names could be counterproductive. No one chooses this distinction. Durova 22:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Your concerns to only include notable people (as opposed to the relatives of notable people, for example) is quite understandable and correct. This should be true of all medical lists on Wikipedia. To do otherwise would be an invasion of privacy, even if the information was publicly available. I think the "notable" could be dropped whilst keeping the existing entry criteria as detailed in the intro. However, I know that many editors don't read the "rules" so can understand your fears that someone will add "So and so's brother had a brain tumor". As principle editor, I'm happy for your opinion to hold here. Colin Harkness°Talk 09:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note to readers

Due to the large number of pediatric cases, parents and teachers may want to use this list to develop innovative teaching approaches. Examples from this list could familiarize children with brain tumors and put a human face on the subject. Anyone can appreciate the music. Suggested selections include The Beatles' "Here Comes the Sun," Johnny Mercer's "Accentuate the Positive," Marvin Gaye and Tammy Terrell's "Ain't No Mountain High Enough," Bob Marley's "Redemption Song," or Ethel Merman singing a George Gershwin tune such as "I Got Rhythm." Grade school age children could watch Elizabeth Taylor as a child star in National Velvet or hear stories about figures from their favorite sport. High school and college age students could write term papers about figures from some field of interest. Durova 18:00, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Benign tumors

Medicine does not generally use the term "benign" to describe low grade brain tumors. Unlike other parts of the body, a slow growing tumor inside the skull eventually kills most patients unless treatment succeeds in removing it completely. This misleading description may still appear in some older publications. Durova 06:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bert Convy

Why was Convy's name removed; he died from a malignant brain tumour.

Robbie 07:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arlen Specter

Specter's name removed by me b/c Hodgkin's disease (lymphoma) is not a form of brain cancer.

Please contact me if you disagree!!

Thanks!!

Rms125a@hotmail.com 20:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I've reinstated Arlen Specter. The claim that he had Hodgkin's disease *instead of* a brain tumor is unsourced. The reference within the article links to a major news source that quotes him directly as saying he survived a brain tumor. Senator Specter's case is among the most well documented on this list, with 13,900 Google hits for "Arlen Specter" + "brain tumor." The National Brain Tumor Foundation identified him in as a well known patient in a press release dated 9 November 2001. [1] In 2005 he was also diagnosed as having Hodgkin's Disease. The user who removed the reference seems to have confused these two separate diagnoses for ailments that were diagnosed twelve years apart. Durova 17:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That was me, sorry!! I didn't know the poor fellow has battled this horrific disease (cancer, in general) TWICE!!! 63.164.145.85 02:34, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

NP. It's admirable that he remains in the senate despite it all. I'm glad he's with us as an inspiration to others. Durova 05:37, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding to this list

Featured list status requires a high standard of editing. Following are suggestions to new contributors:

  • Please accompany each entry with an external link to a reliable source.
  • Footnote a diagnosis if it takes more than three lines. Cite an additional reference if appropriate.
  • If you have trouble using table format, post to this talk page and ask for assistance.
  • Add a link to this list in the See also section of the person's Wikipedia biography.

Thank you very much for contributing and making this list more comprehensive. Durova 16:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethel Merman

To expand the information about her cause of death, please create a footnote and a supporting external link citation. Durova 05:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Research suggestion

I've started to survey the incoming links at brain tumor for biography articles. Anyone care to do the same for brain cancer? Durova 05:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John von Neumann

I'm not quite sure wether he is "eligible" or not for this list. It seems that he developed cancer in other parts of the body first, and it finally spread to the brain... The nature of his job made this tumor somewhat more dramatic than it already is... Perhaps we can even say it was a notable tumor of a notable person!... -- NIC1138 21:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Just state that the tumor was metastatic, as with Lance Armstrong. Durova 21:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List rename

As highlited by User:Colin Harkness, the current title is inaccurate and does not conform to guidelines. First, the use of "notable" is redundant since the criteria for inclusion in the list is notability. Read Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Lists of people. And second, the word "patient" is inacurate as you are only a patient whilst receiving treatment for that condition by a doctor. So it is hard to see the word applying to everyone in either list. It also implie a medical POV. I'll move the list to List of people with brain tumor if no one will object to the move. CG 13:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

See the Article title section above too. I wouldn't say the current title was "inaccurate". I'm less concerned about the word "patient" for the brain tumor list than the epilepsy list. However, I don't want to set a precedent where all medical lists of people use the word patient. Colin Harkness°Talk 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

People with brain tumor is incorrect I think. List of people diagnosed with brain tumors sounds better to me, though I could be wrong on a technicality. The current name definitely needs to go though. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 23:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While I understand some of these concerns, the comment "also implie a medical POV" is puzzling. Brain tumor is a medical diagnosis. What other POV could possibly exist? Durova 06:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Not everyone with a medical diagnosis would like to be viewed as a "patient" 100% of the time. This generally applies to chronic illnesses (which is why I didn't want the word for the epilepsy list). Doctors view you as a patient, everyone else doesn't - hence the POV. I see "patient" appear often in medical articles written by wikidocs. I think they view everyone without a stethoscope round their necks as a "patient" and it may influence their writing in that they might not consider the whole person rather than just a bunch of symptoms to be cured ;-) Colin Harkness°Talk 09:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Within this community I've never seen that objection. The usual first question when one logs onto a brain tumor chat is, "are you a patient or a caregiver?" It becomes a self-identification: people who have this condition know that no matter how slowly the tumor grows or how good the location, it will kill them if untreated, and even treatment that seems to be successful could change into fatal news at the next MRI exam. I suppose I could imagine how an epileptic could manage without medical care and even see advantages to the condition. If the precedent ever becomes an issue, you could reply that brain tumor terminology is often exceptional. Technically speaking, primary brain tumors do not fit the definition of "cancer" (although in nearly every way they behave like cancers) and a good number of tumor types are not strictly "malignant" either even though most patients die. Durova 17:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Entry Criteria

It appears that this list is accepting people who have a brain tumor whether this is the original cancer site or just one place that it spread to. It seems to me that this dilutes the value of the list. Some cancers can spread all over the body in the end stages. If someone developed lung cancer, for example, but it spreads elsewhere, they'd still have lung cancer and would probably be recorded as dying of lung cancer. You wouldn't expect that person to appear on a list of folk who had bone cancer just cause it spread to the bones.

I do accept that for many references, all the info we have is that they died of "a brain tumor". I would argue that those who had a different primary cancer, and for whom the brain tumor wasn't the cause of death or notable symptoms, should be removed.

Comments please .... Colin Harkness°Talk 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I think I see how the confusion arose. After the article achieved featured status another editor altered the introductory statement about inclusion criteria. I've restored the older version, which expresses how the list represents metastases. Brain tumors and other types of tumors do not bear easy comparison. Patients who experience a brain metastasis and their caregivers encounter a special set of concerns in common with primary brain tumor patients and radically different from all other types of metastasis. When this list circulated within the brain tumor community, including major charities, no one objected to noting metastatic cases. Durova 06:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Can I suggest the references be transformed to be like those on List of people with epilepsy. The anonymous hyper-link style used at the moment is not featured-list quality. In addition, a review of the references may result in a tidy-up of some additions and would be worthwhile in maintaining its featured-list status. If nobody complains/volunteers then I may do this at some point soon. Colin Harkness°Talk 14:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Sounds great. Durova 06:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Done. Colin Harkness°Talk 20:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uriel Weinreich

Does anyone have a source for this listing? I've Google searched "brain tumor," "brain tumour," and "brain cancer" without finding anything. The entry doesn't have the tone of a hoax, but this list's inclusion criteria state the listings must all be verified. Posting in the hope someone can supply a printed confirmation. Durova 08:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audit

Now that the references are visible, it is clear that not all can be regarded as reliable sources. I've already removed/replaced some that were just Wikipedia mirrors, or used Wikipedia content (such as some Answers.com articles). Gwethalyn Graham's entry has been removed for now, since I couldn't find an alternative source at present. Two other significant sources are also worth replacing or supplementing:

  • Internet Movie Database. According to the Wikipedia article, this contains user-contributed material that undergo very little editorial checking. It doesn't cite its sources or name the authors of the entries.
  • Facts about Brain Tumors web site. In my experince on the Epilepsy list, many charities do no fact checking whatsoever. In addition, I believe an earlier draft of this Wikipedia list was circulated to such charties. Therefore the risk of a self-reference is high.

My impression from whizzing through all the references is that not all info in this list can be verified against them. I'm happy to ignore the birth/death dates and the "reason for notability" mini-bio in the comments. But I think the statements regarding their tumor needs to be verified by the sources: What kind, what they died of, how long they survived.

The best sources for supplementary reliable sources are, I think, books, newspapers and reputable news web sites. Biographies and obituary columns would be obvious choices.

As part of auditing the references, and potentially replacing or adding some, I wonder if extra information is welcome. For example, more details on the cancer, operations, personal reaction, public reaction, etc. I think there will be little info for many entries, where the source merely gives the cause of death. But for some, there is extra info. Would it be too morbid to include - i.e. would people prefer a bare list and for that sort of info to be in the person's article only?

Could someone please give extra details on what the "Survival" column is based on. Is it time from diagnosis, time from first symptom, time from initial visit to a doctor, or something else?

Feedback and help with this task would be appreciated. Colin Harkness°Talk 20:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

The pre-Wikipedia version of this list was also referenced to reliable sources. When I brought the concept over to Wikipedia I double checked every entry and removed the ones whose reference was no longer a live page. I think we can trust the National Brain Tumor Foundation. Unlike some other medical sites, they don't repeat speculative diagnoses of people who lived hundreds of years ago. Your criticism of the IMDB seems valid. Also, I haven't done a thorough check on the entries that have been added since FL approval. With the exception of IMDB verifications, I think the original FL names should all be solid. Durova 16:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Additions

The following people are in the "Brain tumour deaths" category but not (yet) in thist list:

Colin Harkness°Talk 21:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ray Bumatai

While the current entry is WP:RS adequately sourced for Ray Bumatai, I'm curious to see whether a second source can confirm this information. Three years with glioblastoma multiforme is pretty remarkable. Since the news story calls this "brain cancer" rather than the more technically correct "brain tumor" I'm a little skeptical about the numbers. Durova 13:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

This news article confirms the 2002 date, and the brain tumour fact. Another source is here. I haven't found any other source for the tumour type. Colin Harkness°Talk 15:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
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