Talk:List of new religious movements

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You guys can argue this if you wish, but let's be reasonable: Buddhism pre-dates Christianity (which is not on the list) by a few hundred years. I'm removing it. Islam a) does not begin with a "J" and b) is nearly 1400 years old, is the second largest religious movement in the world, etc. It, too, is not a "new religious" movement. unixslug 00:02, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Criteria

What criteria includes Zorastianism, the old monotheistic religion in existence, as a "new religious movement"? Or, for that matter, atheism? -Willmcw 20:30, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


The list must start with a definition otherwise the list is meaningless. The definition that I used was proposed by Barker who coined the term. I strongly oppose making a list without definition. Andries 20:36, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The reason why Zoroastrianism was included was because Zappaz removed the definition and copied a list of religious movevements compiled by Cowan. I oppose this methodology. I will later try to integrate Zappaz edits one by obe into the list. Each NRM has to be checked individually whehter it fits the definition. Andries 20:46, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


The definition is stated in the intro. It is wide, yes, but NPOV and without WP:NOR. If you don't like it, we can split the list in two: List of new religious movements by Eileen Barker and List if new religious movements by Jefferey Hadden and Douglas Cowan. That will be silly... But you cannot "hijack" the List of new religious movements and use it to list from Barker's. --ZappaZ 20:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I warn you of WP:NOR. Please thread carefully. And in the future, while we are in a moratorium on a similar article, it will be nice manners to inform editors involved that you are working on a related article.. Thanks. --ZappaZ 20:50, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I do not care which definition is used as long as it is clearly defined in the beginning and a "definition" referring to (very different) lists compiled by several other people is not a real definition. The most logical thing to do is use the definition of the person who coined the term and is still influential in the field. Andries 20:55, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

To avoid yet-another-edit-war, please find a scholarly definition of "New Religious Movement", by a source that we can agree with, put that in the intro and then evaluate each entry for inclusion. What say you? --ZappaZ 20:57, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I will do that but that was exactly what had I tried to do, though possibly not very carefully worded. Andries 21:00, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Note that we need to find a definition of the term "New Religious Movement" as it widely held by scholars (so that it is NPOV), and not just by one or another. Let's put our research hats and find a good citation. --ZappaZ 21:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I doubt whether we could find a definition that is widely held. I oppose the list by Hadden and Douglas as a basis for this article that contains among other Buddism! Andries 21:07, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, 'No one cares what Andries think. This is WP, we have WP:NPOV and WP:NOR thank you-very-much. We need a widely held definition of NRM. Find one and let's discuss. Thanks. It won't be easy. --ZappaZ 21:12, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
You seem to forget that one can have widely divergent opinions about how these policies should be applied in practice for a specfic article and hence my opinion and opinions of other contributors do matter. Andries 21:47, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, I do not think there such a thing as a widely held definition of a new religious movement. Andries 21:51, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
NRMs don't include Hinduism, Islam, Zoroastrianism, or Atheism. Any version that includes any of those should be reverted on sight as disruptive of WP. --goethean ॐ 22:06, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
I hope this doesn't count as OR, but in 1995 the Observer newspaper in the UK ran an article "The A-Z of cults" which was subsequently described by the editor as "tongue-in-cheek". The Observer articles are no longer on line, but text files are currently available [1]. Included here you will find Zoroastrianism, Mormonism and more. Jeffrey Hadden's list started as student projects from around 1996 onwards (see [2]). I suspect the list includes Zoroastrianism for the same reason as the Observer did (desperation!). In any case, taking a view on student projects, I'm sure the Hadden list cannot be viewed as definitive by any means. John Campbell 17:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
Hadden's list intentionally included any religion whose offshoots could become an NRM, in other words anything. In fact in many places it just calls itself "religious movements" page and that it was originally meant to be a site about NRMs was something I didn't know until I came here.--T. Anthony 08:22, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mislisting Scientology

The new religious movement - The Church of Scientology - is not listed. Instead the body of knowledge, the study, - Scientology - is listed. I believe this is erroneous and misleading. Without any doubt The Church of Scientology fulfills all of the definitions of a new religious movement. On the other hand - Scientology - (which is a body of knowledge and can be found in certain books and recorded lectures), doesn't. On one hand the Church of Scientology which is most certainly a new religious movement is not listed. On the other hand - Scientology - which isn't a new religious movement by itself, is not listed. Terryeo 12:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of New Religious Movement

We could simply use the one in WP:

A new religious movement or NRM appears as a religious, ethical or spiritual grouping that has not (yet) become recognised as a standard denomination, church, or body, especially when it has a novel belief system and when it is not a sect.

... and then adding a sensible time-span such as since the nineteen century".

There is an interesting discussion here: Category_talk:New_religious_movements, that can save us a lot of re-hashing the same arguments again. --ZappaZ 20:34, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

the time frame since the 19th century is completely arbitrary and quite unusual. Andries 21:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

An interesting article about the definitions of NRM @ Pratt University's website: Online Resource Guide in Social Sciences --ZappaZ 22:30, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

... and of course, Chryssides' NEW RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS - SOME PROBLEMS OF DEFINITION [3] --ZappaZ 23:46, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for that article (though Chryssides is wrong in his assertion that academics do not use the word cults). I have to refine my statement made above. The time span since the nineteen century is quite arbitrary, but Barrett/Barker's time span of after the WWII is self-admitted arbitrary. Andries 05:27, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Why don't we add a sign for the NRMs that do not fulfill the Barker and Barrett definition (post WWII), but fulfills the post 1850s definition e.g "after 1850s". That would solve the problem. Andries 16:12, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
That would be too much work, why don't we start from 1900 and onwards? Any objections? --ZappaZ 21:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
yes, where are the scholary references for this arbitrary year? Andries 21:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
On second thoughts, I think it is at least an improvement if we start from 1900, as long as pre-WWII movements are clearly marked as such and as long as in the intro is stated that pre-WWII is not a generally accepted definition. Andries 07:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Excellent. Let's start now checking one by one, deleting whatever does not fit. We also need a new intro. --ZappaZ 15:33, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

The ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS ??? Who included them in the list ? By all means, it is NOT a religious movement ! It DOES refer to God as a way to help the ones who attend the meetings, but believing in God is "just" an extra tool to help you find your life back ! There is no question of cult, or services, or life after death, or what God thinks/says/demands/plans etc. And many ATHEISTS join the meetings ! For them it is really nothing but a mental exercise, to help them put some pressure off their shoulders. Maybe the meetings in the US are only held in churches (or their basement), but it is NOT the case in other countries. They just take whatever room is given to them, at a reasonable rent ! I did not take it off the list before asking for explanations, but I think it should be done !! Govinda

While I appreciate the scholarly intent of NRM is to create an alternative to the inherently perjorative term "cult", IMHO NRM is intrinsically flawed as defined. Who is The Authority to "recognize" / bless / sanction a NRM into a non-NRM? Aside from definition the list's inclusions seem very US if not European biased. SC 02:00, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Please add your comments at the bottom of a section. Thanks. Read the criteria for inclusion: This List of new religious movements lists groups that appears as a religious, ethical or spiritual grouping that have not yet become recognised as a standard denomination, church, or body. New Religious Movements are interesting because of their potential and the window they give into how religions form or evolve. New Religions have the potential to become mainstream or to self-destruct. In either case it helps the understanding of the psychology of religion.. You are welcome to edit and make this article better. --ZappaZ

[edit] Dangerous Ground

I just got wind of this "list" today. It is treading on dangerous ground. Many of listings are not religious movements, some pre-date 1920, and some would find it terribly offensive to be listed aside organizations that are views as cults or sects, and rightly so. This list also presumes that the world revolves around the United States and that these religion's legitmacy is marked by their recognition by American law or wide acceptance by American citizens, both of which are egocentric positions.

Exactly what is the purpose of this list? And who is its main viewer?

Needless to say I made several minor edits.


[edit] Factual accuracy dispute

I gave the article an accuracy dispute because I found some pre-1900 (jehovah's witnesses, Shirdi Sai Baba) entries and there may be more. Each entry on the list has to be checked. Andries 07:25, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

If there are these that do not fit the critera, please remove them. Thanks. --ZappaZ 03:12, 1 September 2005 (UTC)ere
There exists also a definition that NMRs are everything founded later than Sikhism, the youngest world religion (ref. German Wikipedia and the ref. there (Georg Schmid... Swiss professor or religious science) --Irmgard 11:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
Would "founded later than Sikhism" mean after Guru Nanak founded the faith or after the Guru Granth Sahib of 1708? Also would it still be NMR, using this definition, if it's just an offshoot of another religion? For example the Methodists were formed in the 1780s, which is after the Guru Granth Sahib. Yet when it was formed it was not "new" the way Sikhism was during the life of Guru Nanak. Does that make sense?
Also some these days would state that Bahai does now count as the youngest world religion. It's on every continent and has over seven million members. That would put every faith founded after 1863 as a new religion. Which would include the Salvation Army, Church of the Nazarene, and the United Church of Christ. That seems a bit odd too, but a bit more workable perhaps. Although in the case of the UCC it's really a merger of much older churches so wouldn't count--T. Anthony 23:07, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I took some out and I'll try to justify why here. The United Methodists are just a new organization of Methodists. Methodists date back to the 1700s. The Church of the Nazarene is newer than Bahai, but it is ultimately over a hundred and also a stricter variant of Methodists.(Being newer than Sikhism is at best useful if it's a clear break with any previous religion. All Methodism would be newer than Sikhism, but few would deem them an NRM) The Pentecostals are about as old as Bahai. The Seventh Day Adventists originate in the 1850s I think. The Mormons are equally old so if they're still up there maybe someone else can handle that. Garvey's group did actually have religious overtones, which influenced Rastafarianism, but it's disputed enough I took it off. Finally Christianity has been in Japan since the sixteenth century and it's been allowed openly since the 1870s I think. Unless a specific Japanese Christian NRM is meant it seemed confusing and the link didn't lead anywhere anyway.--T. Anthony 08:39, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
It's improved since I first saw it, but it's still a tad odd in some areas. There are several noted New Religious Movements which I think are absent. The Kimbanguists for example are very significant in number and probably could count as new. Added to that Swedenborgianism is on the list. Although it may not be mainstream the Swedenborgians have been organized as a religion in the US since 1817 or so and even earlier in Britain. Helen Keller and Johnny Appleseed were members. --T. Anthony 13:36, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Looking them up further they had a university in the US in 1850. One of them was in Congress in the 1850s. Frank Lloyd Wright designed one of their churches. They sound a mite odd, but not exactly new or all that unmainstream.--T. Anthony 13:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Another note "Snake Handlers" isn't that one groups real name. They are called Church of God with Signs Following.--T. Anthony 13:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition again - not only time line

George Chryssides [4] sees three factors defining new religious movements

  • time range - he takes 150 years, remarking that the time range varies a lot
  • new movements - which he defines as not being part of any existing religion, either due to their own claims that they are separate from XXX or "the only real XXX" or that their claimed identity is disputed by the respective mainstream religion (Scientology, LDS or Christian Science would be NMRs by this definition - Opus Dei, Methodists and most Charismatic churches not)
  • religious - by which he excludes movements like TM or est etc. --Irmgard 19:03, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I removed some groups which are not "new" because they are an accepted part of a bigger church or direction (Opus Dei is fully recognized as Catholic by the Catholic Church, Promise Keepers, Assemblies of God and Willow Creek etc. are generally seen as Evangelical by mainstream conservative Evangelical Christianity). --Irmgard 19:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

But aren't they new "movements"? Pentecostalism is explicitly labelled as a movement in its article. -Willmcw 20:18, September 2, 2005 (UTC)
There are developments which do not result in one single separate church or organization but in several or many organizationally independent groups and/or similar groups within established churches which are loosely connected by some common ideas - and the designation of that is a movement. There is a conservative Evangelical movement within Methodist and Presbyterian mainstream churches, a missionary Evangelical movement which includes Billy Graham, Willow Creek and Campus Crusade, and there is a Charismatic/Pentecostal movement. In all of these cases, the result is not a new" type of church separate from all others. Members of these movements exist within established churches and in independent churches and while not denying their church adherence they feel as well in agreement with members of the movement which belong to other churches, see them as Christian brothers and sisters and share prayer and worship with them (without asking much how theologically correct that is in the view of their church superiors). These cross-church movements do not have a distinct novel belief system and they are no distinct organizations separate from existing churches, and neither are they uniformely rejected by established churches (by some people or parties within established churches, yes - but that's also true for, e.g., liberal theology). Such movements are, in my view, not "New religious movements" - they don't fit the definition of the first para.
On the other hand, there are distinct groups within established religion which are generally accepted as part of that established religion (no one says Opus Dei is not Catholic or Willow Creek is not Evangelical). Those groups are IMO not "New religious movements" - they also don't fit the definition of the first para.
Then there are groups which do see themselves as distinctly separated from all existing churches or as the "only real XXX church" - these are "new" religious movements (even though they often claim old historical roots) - a historical example would be the Reformation churches.
And lastly there are groups which claim to be part of an established religion and are not recognized by that established religion - these also count as new per definition of the first para. --Irmgard 14:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

On one side, there are many "movements" within established churches which see themselves as part of that church and are also accepted as such by the church. There are charismatic movements (great part of that within the Catholic church), conservative Evangelical movements within mainstream Evangelical churches, inclusive movements, etc.

We are not using Chryssides' defintion, but Barker's and Barret's. Reverted. --ZappaZ 22:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, it is not true that we are only using Barrett's and Barker's definition, after all we included pre-WWII movements because of your insistence on this. I think some of Irmgard's removals are justified because she removed some sects. Andries 22:51, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I don't think Opus Dei can be counted because it's a religious order not a religious movement. If we're going to count any new Catholic or other religious order we should also count The Focolare Movement and Taize Community. In fact those two might fit better as both are movements more than religious orders. Added to that the article on Pentacostalism states that the idea of a Pentecostal movement dates from 1867 and the Church of God (Cleveland) is a Pentecostal denomination from the 1880s. I am willing to count everything after Bahai as a "new religious movement" but ideally I think a denomination more than a 100 years old should only count if it is totally disconnected to any major religion.
Opus Dei and Focolare are an officially recognized groups within the Catholic Church - they are definitely not separate new movements. --Irmgard 14:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Similar on the Evangelical side Willows Creek, International Moody Bible Institute, Promise Keepers. Vineyard Movement, Foursquare Gospel, Calvary Chapel, Christian Reformed Church in North America, Christian and Missionary Alliance are Christian denominations. All of them are somewhat ecumenically connected, either to Evangelical Alliance or to some other cross-denominiational organization and do not fit the first para definition. --Irmgard 14:11, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Hey Irmgard I kind of agree. I think I took Pentecostalism off before you did. I'd be fine with removing Moody, Promise Keepers, Opus Dei, Christian Reformed Church in North America, and a couple others. However if I do I know they'll just be put back by tomorrow. Still I'll be so bold as to remove a couple of those.--T. Anthony 03:32, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
That said I didn't remove anything this time as there is debate on these issues. I did edit some naming conventions to allow for the links to work.--T. Anthony 02:25, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay now I have removed something, the "Watchtower..." entry. That name was an earlier name for the Jehovah's Witnesses. If someone wishes the JWs to be on the list that's a different matter, but they aren't on it at present.--T. Anthony 03:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I took Konkokyo off the list for now as they were established in 1859 and recognized by the Japanese government in 1900. I know Wiki lists them as an NRM though so I'll ask my sister--T. Anthony 03:27, 5 September 2005 (UTC).--T. Anthony 03:26, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Again, The Purpose is What?

I said in my last entry, this list is dangerous. What is it's purpose? It couldn't possibly exist to define "new religious movements" as its strewn with errors. Since I edited it, many more have occurred and even more are left to be made.

The reality is that this is Christian focused document. Its only really useful purpose is to define religions or non-similiar gatherings outside of itself. In fact, even it's title is subterfuge, as it betrays its true intent - to find a way to define certain movements,congregations or otherwise as cults. This is something that Christians and secularists seem to be too eager to do and an activity that has no real benefit other than dividing people.

For example, its completely inappropriate to list any type, sect or version of Hinduism on a list with Satanism. Even if you don't agree, both Satanists and Hindi would agree. You even list MOVE, which had no religious philosophy at all, outside of the general ethics followed by their predecessors in the earlier 60s and 70s social movements. This is list that is burdened with euro/western/christian assumptions. It is predicated on opinion and more importantly only ONE opinion, which conveniently is one that would not be viewed as a "new" religious movement or as a cult, which means it one people defining another. A task which usually results in falsehoods, sterotypes and oppressive recordkeeping.

Many of these so-call "new" religious movements are actually offshoots of religions that are much older than all western religions. So while they are younger manifestations, they may not really be new at all, or at least no newer than say certain segments of the Christian community or sects of Islam.

Not only am I concerned about the accuracy of the list, I want to understand why it needs to exist. Who would use it? and to what end? And what body of information does it provide the user that can not be found elsewhere that is both unbiased and respectful?

There you go, please illuminate me. Does everyone consider this to be an unbiased document?

There has been bias, old Eastern religions have received few calls to have them removed, but if you'll look at my edits in least I'm trying to remove Eastern religions that were founded well before 1900. I took Konkokyo off even though on Wiki's "Konkokyo" page they call it an NRM. I took off...well I can't remember its name right now but it was an Indian religion dating back to the 1500s. There is a sense that calling something an NRM is perjorative, but I do think it's interesting to know what religions are comparatively recent. Some might see a religion being newer as a potential good even. Anyway your complaint is noted and I will look harder for any non-Western religion that's been unfairly called "new."--T. Anthony 11:29, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay I did my best to remove names whose Wiki links just say were "Hindu thinkers" rather than founders of any new religion. I also put Unity Christianity back. I hope that in least gets rid of some bias. If the group agrees I'd be for taking Vedanta and the Native American Church off. I am Catholic BTW, but I think this can have a purpose without unduly upsetting non-Western peoples. Still many New Religions are from non-Western cultures so many should stay on this list.--T. Anthony 12:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I changed the opener to be gentler. Now as for why I like lists like this, well some of why I put in the opener. However the other reason is I read and sometimes write science fiction. Maybe the future won't be full of Sokka Gakai temples, but still who knows? In least it'd throw a window on the possibility that even the religious map of the West is going to change alot in the coming decades. Hinduism is one of the fastest growing faiths in America so having a list that has some new Hindu groups growing in the US is useful for credible SF writings and researchers. (I'm not a credible SF writer) Hope that answered some--T. Anthony 12:32, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What is new? or Western bias

SC Witch stated: While I appreciate the scholarly intent of NRM is to create an alternative to the inherently perjorative term "cult", IMHO NRM is intrinsically flawed as defined. Who is The Authority to "recognize" / bless / sanction a NRM into a non-NRM? Aside from definition the list's inclusions seem very US if not European biased.

I may different from the others here, I'm newer to this than many, but personally I would think it stops being new when it's not new anymore. Either because its beliefs are no longer seen as all that novel or it's been around long enough it's not new. As no one currently alive is confirmed to have been born before 1890 I would think anything founded before 1890 could only be "new" if it has broken from any previous religion. For example Antoinism was founded by a man born in the 1840s, but it is based on a system fairly separate from any of the religious cultures of France. So much so that many parts of Wikipedia are listing it, apparently inaccurately, as an African religion. Thus making its beliefs "newer" than its chronological date would imply. Still even it's not from before 1890 and I don't think I'd be comfortable adding anything before that date.
Now as for the US/EU bias I have been trying to correct that. I took off several Eastern movements that weren't really new, even by the definition involving Sikhism's founding, or that aren't really religions. I've also tried to add some groups from Brazil that really are new, sometimes from after 1970 even. I'm not convinced my efforts are approved of or even entirely working out so far, but it's a start. Could you explain more clearly though what you mean by a US/EU bias?--T. Anthony 06:05, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Okay "Jesus Army" and "Jesus Fellowship Church" are apparently the same thing so I cut out one of the repeated entries. I might put a note though listing it's other name.--T. Anthony 06:17, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Musings

I was wondering on something, likely because of sleeplessness. The dates 1900 and 1945 are placed as significant to this in a way, but nothing after 1945 is. That maybe makes sense, but it seems to me the collapse of the Soviet Union and related factors maybe was significant to the history of religion and new religion. The listing of Universe people got me thinking on that some as well. I'm not suggesting we should mention if the group was founder after 1993 (the Dissolution of Czechoslovakia and the Unified Team last played in 1992) but in the case of Eastern European groups would it be a good or bad thing if we did? Thoughts.--T. Anthony 13:30, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Good point, but I don't know how if this should be put in this article or in the article new religious movement, or in a separate article e.g. New religious movements in post communist societies. I think Barker has written about this. Russia has restrictions against foreign groups. There are quite a few NRMs in those countries who have like the Universe people some entertainment value for outsiders like myself. Other are more tragic. For example, I read that several of the organizers of the Mothers of Beslan committee had become a member of a cult that claims can re-surrect their children. [5] Andries 18:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
That is sad. I was just blue-skying that one day weeks ago.--T. Anthony 01:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Proposal

Hi, I am suggesting merging the content of List of cults, but keeping the criteria and format of this article. Essentially, List of cults has developed POV problems, which have been avoided in this article. 80.189.75.153 18:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that there is a problem which needs to be fixed, or that this proposed solution would improve either article. -Will Beback 23:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't you mean List of groups referred to as cults? There is a big difference in meaning. If people are treating the article like it's a list of cults (which is not something Wikipedia can make, since "cult" is essentially pejorative in common usage), that's probably your POV problem right there. I do think that the phenomenon of labeling certain groups as "cults" is real and the list of groups so labelled is distinct from the list of new religious movements, though the two often overlap. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 01:22, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate the problem, but I did a great deal of work on this list awhile back and I'd prefer it not be junked up. Added to that the purported cult list includes several faiths which are not really NRMs. Either because they're too old like Exclusive Brethren or because they're not a religious movement as in examples LaRouche Movement or Objectivist movement. The ones on that list that are NRMs are mostly already here.--T. Anthony 15:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, in the absence of a consesus to merge, I have removed the tag. 80.189.229.1 18:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I might add some NRMs that are on the cultlist to here though.--T. Anthony 01:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
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