Talk:List of known opiate addicts

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Are they all confessed/admitted heroin addicts? Otherwise it's libelous..... Secretlondon 18:35, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

Death by heroin - Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley; addmission from Hubert Selby Jr., William S. Burroughs, Miles Davis, Axl Rose (much of which may have been for hype/image), and James Taylor; rehab and/or arrest for use - Courtney Love, Robert Downey Jr.; historical "fact" (for some value of fact) - Poe, Freud, Holliday, Parker, and Lugosi. I intentionally left off Lenny Bruce who was reportedly only an "occassional user", Elvis, Jerry Garcia (all of whom died with smack in their body).

Dave Navarro, Eric Avery and Perry Farrell of Jane's Addiction are all admitted former users, and Navarro & Every were certainly addicts; Keith Richards was a heroin addict, too; as was John Lennon in the late 1960's (his addiction inspired "Cold Turkey"); John Belushi and River Phoenix died from ODs on heroin/cocaine cocktails, and Phoenix was a known heroin addict; Nikki Sixx from Motley Crue is an admitted heroin addict; Flea, Anthony Keidis and Hillel Slovak from The Red Hot Chili Peppers were heroin addicts, and Slovak died from an overdose in 1988; Robbin Crosby from the 80's band Ratt was a heroin addict; Slash from Guns N Roses was a heroin addict, as was Dave Mustaine from Megadeth; Eric Clapton famously overcame heroin addiction in the early 1970's with the help of Pete Townshend; Janis Joplin was a heroin addict; Iggy Pop was a heroin addict in the 70's and 80's; Andrew Wood from Mother Love Bone died from a heroin OD in 1990; Dee Dee Ramone (The Ramones) died from an OD on heroin and cocaine; Pete Farndon from The Pretenders was a well-known heroin junkie, was fired from the band for that reason and died from a 1983 OD; Joe Perry and Steven Tyler (Aerosmith) were heroin addicts in the 70's and 80's; Boy George is a self-admitted heroin addict whose brother went public with his addiction in 1986; David Crosby is a self-admitted heroin & cocaine addict, though he never used intravenously (wimp!); Lou Reed has acknowledged being a heroin user, possibly an addict.

Why would any of these people (still living) sue? Most rock stars brag about their drug addictions (and overcoming them). -- Gerkinstock 18:13, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

P.S. -- Not to mention G.G. Allin, Dave Mustaine, Steve Earle, Scott Weiland, Ed Show, Darby Crash, Shannon Hoon and Bradley Nowell, who all died from heroin ODs. -- Gerkinstock 19:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

P.S. #2 -- And Frankie Lymon died from a heroin OD, and Jimmy Chamberlain (Smashing Pumpkins) was a self-admitted addict who famously relapsed in 1996... -- Gerkinstock 03:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Don't believe it's libelous at all. If I'm arrested under the influence and in possession of or seek treatment for, it's still a fact that I have a problem with it - direct admission or not. vudu 18:46, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see how death by heroin overdose can be seen as absolute proof of addiction. What if they OD'd on their very first hit? Then they would never have had time to get addicted. Kasreyn 03:51, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly libellous if a court can be peruaded that it is not true. One hopes Jiang is either sure of his sources or has a good lawyer. Adam 01:10, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Who me? --Jiang

Sorry, I was under the impression you were the original author. I must have misread the entry at Recent Changes. Adam 01:22, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 good grief!! 1.1 More careful reviews of entries ? 2 Poe? 3 Categories 4 Other addictions 5 Citing sources 6 Alternative - deletion? 7 Morrison and heroin. 8 Frank Murphy and William Rehnquist 9 Kate Moss 10 erm 10.1 Poe 11 A reminder 12 Monroe 13 Articles for Deletion debate 14 move 15 IMDB 16 Rename suggestion 17 John Bonham 18 NNDB insufficient for cite source 19 Inaccurate, libellous title 20 Aldous Huxley

[edit] good grief!!

Is there any proof that Dylan is/was a heroin addict? No? Thought not. Take his name down then. I think credible references should be provided before names are put on this list.

CJB

_________

Quite a few books about Dylan say that he was a heroin addict in the 1960s and perhaps later. Scaduto's book gives all sorts of evidence for him being a junkie although Scaduto concludes that he is "probably not" - as Scaduto's book was an authorized biography, he had to beat around the bush. You might as well ask if there is proof that Keith Richards, Johnny Thunders, and Kurt Cobain were junkies

[edit] More careful reviews of entries ?

Some people on this list do not have any mention of a substance abuse/comsuption problem - I'm mostly thinking of Picasso here, but other exemples may be pertinent as well (haven't crosschecked the whole thing, you know). I took the liberty of changing the opening paragraph to make it more nuanced as well. Vanieter

[edit] Poe?

I hardly think that Edgar Allan Poe was a heroin addict, as heroin wasn't synthesized until 25 years after Poe's death. So, he's off the list. Maybe "morphine addicts"? OK, I'm an idiot... it's all "opiates"... maybe the page should be renamed? Gwimpey 08:26, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I applaud the attempt to sort the addicts into categories, but there is no correct orthogonal classification for many of them. Many in the music category (such as Courtney Love) also had an extensive acting career. And Lenny Bruce, in the miscellaneous section, had an acting role in a feature film (second billing). Since the need to divide the group is probably due to large population, maybe it should be done by letter. Like maybe split the alphabet into four parts. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 08:04, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

1) please sign your comments. 2) I'm the one who sorted it, and your right, it was to make it more manageable.  ALKIVAR™ 08:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Other addictions

Is there a list of alcoholics forthcoming? --sparkit 22:39, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. I'll get right on it. I can only assume it will be a longer list, as alcoholics tend to be more socially acceptable, and thus less secretive. -.- — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 08:23, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

It is not at all an established fact - or even a widely agreed upon hypothesis - that Edgar Allan Poe was addicted to any opiates. It's just rumor and speculation that some biographers have whipped up to "explain" aspects of Poe's tumultuous life and behaviour. I'm going to remove his name from the list unless there are valid objections. - dog johnson

[edit] Citing sources

It's Wikipedia policy to cite your sources. That's always desirable, but particularly so here. This page lodges a serious allegation against a whole host of prominent people, with not one single solitary citation of any source. I assume some of these entries are legitimate. Without a citation, however, we have no way of telling whether a particular addition was carefully researched, or based on something the editor thinks s/he remembers from some quasi-reliable source, or tossed in as a lark by an anon (lots of anons editing this page) who thinks it's a fun form of vandalism.

I propose that every single entry on this list be deleted unless and until someone provides a citation, online or in print, for the person's inclusion. If it's a source that's not available online for free, then there should also be, on this talk page, a post explaining what's in the source that justifies the inclusion. If "everybody knows" that a particular person was indeed an addict, then it will be that much easier to find a source, so this should pose no difficulty. JamesMLane 05:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, John Howard, George W. Bush, and Al Franken are all opiate addicts according to this article. I agree with the above statement, the whole article should be scrapped and restarted properly, with a more cautious approach. It should also be retitled. After all, there is a difference between a drug user and a drug abuser, and there is even a further difference between a drug abuser and a genuine addict. This article makes no distinction between people who may have experimented with opiates here and there, and people who were genuinely addicted. - Anon

Agree with the last two entries. This article leads Wikipedia into very sticky legal territory. There are a number of names on the list that are deeply implausible or obviously absolutely false. Nick Fraser 15:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Along with the distinction between a user and an abuser, and the distinction between an abuser and an addict, there's the distinction between opiates and other drugs. (Bush, for example, is thought to have used marijuana and/or cocaine, along with his well-known abuse of alcohol, but none of those substances are considered opiates.) This article's opening sentence, which gives a vastly overbroad explanation of the term "opiates", is wrong. If it's going to be too hard for editors to observe these distinctions, perhaps the article should just be a list of people who've used illegal drugs (although perhaps some people used in countries or at times when the drugs they used were not prohibited).

With regard to sources, I don't think it's adequate to say, in an edit summary, that additions have been "verified at their respective wiki articles". That doesn't give an indication of what the source is. We can't expect people to scan edit summaries. Whatever source supports including the statement in the person's article should be repeated here. If there is no source in the article, then the name shouldn't be on this list. One advantage of this strict approach is that it will help ensure that the distinctions mentioned above are observed. For example, Jonathan Melvoin died of a heroin overdose, but that doesn't prove he was an addict. JamesMLane 17:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alternative - deletion?

On reflection I'm more inclined toward deleting this article than trying to clean it up. I don't see that it serves much purpose except as a collection of gossip and unsubstantiated rumors. Even if it's cleaned up now, keeping it clean would require constant effort, for no discernible payoff. Before I list it, I'd be interested in people's comments about the idea of deleting it. JamesMLane 17:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Agree with that. Support deletion. Nick Fraser 12:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Keep it. It might be a good idea to take out living individuals whose abuse cannot be documented. I see no harm in continuing to list dead individuals. (User:Prairie Dog|Prairie Dog]] 18:31 13 Aug. 2005 (UTC)

Please keep it. It is a useful reference. I am a dramaturg (a researcher)working on a show about Billie Holiday. This list was useful for me to see possible interactions between herself and other musicians of her era and Genre. Keep it up, but clean it up. (mkettling)

[edit] Morrison and heroin.

Many biographers of Jim Morrison have clearly stated that he was not a heroin user; in fact it was well-known that he disapproved of the drug. Although there is speculation that he died of an accidental heroin overdose (he allegedly mistook the drug for cocaine), this idea is furiously debated by critics.

Either way, I don't think Morrison should be listed on this page. His main drugs were alcohol and cocaine, and it was the weakening of his health from alcoholism that led to his death.

I have known people who knew Morrison, and they all seem to agree that he was a user. Regardless, since Morrison is dead, there is no issue of libel. Prairie Dog 18:31 13 Aug. 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Frank Murphy and William Rehnquist

Source: Jonathan Turley, "When Justices Won't Go", Los Angeles Times, August 13, 2005, pp. B19--Anonymous[1]

I have found nothing that backs that Rehnquist was addicted to an opiate. I find lots of references to perhaps a Placidyl addiction--P Todd 05:10, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kate Moss

Despite the recent front page story in the Daily Mirror showing Moss allegedly snorting several lines of cocaine, has there actually been any allegations or proof that Moss is an opiate addict? Cocaine is not an opiate, is it? So should Kate Moss be removed from the list...

Yes, she should be removed, as should many others on this list. 207.6.31.119 08:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] erm

A lot of these people are not addicts. Sure, the people on this list have tried heroin, but you can try/use something and not be addicted to it.

-- Josh.passmore 11:04, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Poe

I removed Poe again. The fact that he once tried to commit suicide by overdosing on laudanum does not translate into being an addict! There is not a single serious Poe biographer that has advanced the idea of Poe being an opiate addict. His life has been thouroughly investigated, and when interviewed by biographers, not a single aqaintance, friend, or family member, mentioned any opium addiction, and this was at a time when it was quite fashionable to say scandalous things about Poe.

In all of his letters and personal correspondances, Poe was quite open about his problems with alchohol, but he never once mentioned any problem with laudanum or any other opiate. Please provide some evidence for Poe's inclusion on this list. In fact, going through the list, I can see that about half the people on it have nothing in their actual articles that would warrant their inclusion here. 207.6.31.119 22:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A reminder

In case that this article survives Afd, please note WP:V:

1. Articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. 2. Editors adding new information into an article should cite a reputable source for that information, otherwise it may be removed by any editor. 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source is on editors wishing to include information, not on those seeking to remove it.

Each and every entry in this list that do not have a reference that verifies that the person indeed ia an opiate addict, shall be mercilessly deleted.

You may also want to read WP:LISTS

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Some examples:

• List of people believed to have epilepsy
• List of charismatic leaders

I cut way back on actors, including some who probably are or were heroin addicts, to fix it a bit. I'll put a few names back on sourcing. I intended to try this on other sections, but I've slept poorly the last few days so that'll wait or be entrusted to others.--T. Anthony 08:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:23, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Please also note that having died of a heroin overdose is by no means proof of having been a heroin addict. It's quite common for inexperienced heroin users to OD, as they're not as familiar with the drug and have a lower tolerance. ←Hob 22:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I also tightened the criteria. As for the title of tis list is both misleading and does not equate with the criteria stated:

• Citeria: The following is a list of people who have been addicted to heroin (or other opiates including prescription painkillers or tranquilizers) at some point during their lives.
• Title: List of famous opiate addicts
• So if someone was an addict "at some point during their lives" that does not make him/her an opiate addict, but an ex addict.

The article needs to be moved to List of opiate addicts and the criteria changed to include only those people that are addicts and are alive and those people that that died while being addicts. But let's wait to see if the list survives AfD first. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monroe

Sorry to add to an already huge discussion page, but has anyone found confirmation that Marilyn Monroe was an opiate addict? I'm only aware of her using barbiturates, I'd like to delete the entry if it isn't true. Ergot 16:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• I think jossi just overlooked her during the Great Purge. I've removed her and River Phoenix (who also had no cite). Turnstep 21:00, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for Deletion debate

This article survived an Articles for Deletion debate. The discussion can be found here. -Splash^talk 00:54, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] move

Moved to a neutral title List of people know to be addicted to opiates . ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IMDB

Since when does the internet movie database count as a valid source? 207.6.31.119 03:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

IMDB was meant to be a temporary source until I found better and preferrably scholarly sources. Although in the case of some actors the interest among the academic community is rather slim.--T. Anthony 15:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rename suggestion

The name is unneccessarily cumbersome. I suggest "List of opiate addicts". "Known" is superfluous, since of course we won't be adding anything without proper sourcing.  :)

What say ye, Wikipedians? Kasreyn 03:50, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

It would be really hard for me to credibly take silence for assent. I'd hate to get in an edit war. So don't be afraid, speak up! Who's for a simpler name? Kasreyn 10:14, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John Bonham

Removing John Bonham from the list. Source given contradicts Wikipedia's own entry which states that there was no presence of drugs in his system at the time of death.

But he was known to be a heroin addict throughout the 1970's. That he didn't die of a heroin overdose doesn't mean he was never addicted to opiates. --Gerkinstock 04:19, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Any sources? Bulbous 20:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As source cited does not explicitly indicate that the subject was "addicted to opiates", and no corroborating sources cited, am removing this entry. Bulbous 15:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NNDB insufficient for cite source

Several entries in the list use NNDB as a cite source. This usually means that NNDB has included heroin as a "risk factor" in the relevant article. This is not the same as stating that the person in question is or was ever addicted to heroin. These entries should be removed or re-cited. Bulbous 21:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inaccurate, libellous title

The title is List of known opiate addicts but it's not proven that these people are/were addicted to opiates; all that's known is that they used opiates at some point.

Drug addiction is not the same as drug use, and opiate use does not necessarily lead to opiate addiction which has a very specific medical meaning (the development of tolerance and dependence).

I propose renaming this article to List of known opiate users. FuManChoo 11:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The alternative to renaming this article is going through each entry in the list and removing it unless there is solid evidence of opiate addiction (as opposed to opiate use). FuManChoo 12:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Considering how incredibly addictive that opiates are alleged to be, would the list of "users" be that different from the list of "addicts"? And could users be interpreted inaccurately as "current users"? Bulbous 20:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Opiates are avaliable by prescription for pain relief across the globe and the vast majority of those prescribed opiates use them without becoming dependent or addicted. Certain opiates are quite addictive (e.g. Heroin) but that does not mean that all opiates are equally addictive or that opiate addiction will always occur with medical or recreational use.

Your second point is valid but it could equally apply to the current title, which could be inaccurately interpreted as referring to people who are currently addicted to opiates. I guess "List of people who have used opiates" is an easy solution.FuManChoo 00:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aldous Huxley

I was surprised to find Huxley in the list. This author is famous for his essais on psychedelics (which are a world apart from opioids). And yes, there is also a famous Huxley quote about heroin, which may also led one to think that he tried it. Even if that is the case, it does not mean he was an addict. (and if you have proofs I'd love to read them)

On the other hand, John Lennon should be included in the list. And many others, sure, but that one is far more influential than most in the list.