Talk:List of island countries

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So This is, in fact, not a 'list of island countries', but a list of countrie that are on one or more islands, but not spread across islands that they do not completly control? Isn't that a little strange? By any normal definition UK and Ireland are island coutries - are you suggesting that they would be on this list if the UK gave NI back to Ireland? Plus, when was Java EVER a country? Mark Richards 22:39, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, and here. --Merovingian ↕ T@Lk 04:13, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

I will move this to List of countries on one or more whole islands for clarity. Mark Richards 23:13, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

No, actually, that would be silly. I added Indonesia, and re-added UK and Ireland. They are island countried by any reasonable definition, the fact that in each case, one country does not control all of all the islands is extremely difficult to articulate. Hope that doesn't annoy you too much - let me know if I'm missing something here ;) Mark Richards 02:50, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
If borders didn't matter, couldn't every nation be described as an island nation? (continents = islands) --Merovingian ↕ T@Lk 04:13, May 19, 2004 (UTC)

No, I don't think so, there is a reasonable distinction between continents and islands - my challenge to you is to articulate in the article the distinction you are making without getting so convoluted that it is confusing. My understanding is that, to be included on this list, a nation state has to:

  1. Exist on one or more islands.
  2. Have sole sovereignty over all of the island of which it has any sovereignty.
  3. Having sovereignty over part of an island, but not all of it, disqualifies the country from being on the list.

Is that really what you're saying? I can't understand where a list like this would be of use. The continents thing is a red herring - the name of the article implies states that exist entirely on islands, whether or not they have entire soveriengty over all of the islands they exist on seems irrelevant. I'm open to this if there is something I'm missing - let me know, Mark Richards 15:44, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, that's how I have come to learn what an island nation is. --Merovingian ↕ T@Lk 09:51, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Re Java, I think you are thinking of Majapahit Empire? It did not control the whole of Java, and also controlled parts of various other islands. Mark Richards 15:46, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

That's probably it. --Merovingian ↕ T@Lk 09:51, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

By your criteria, this should also be disputed. I still don't understand the logic behind your selection criteria. Can you point to where you got this definition from? Thanks, Mark Richards 17:23, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Why is Australia listed? Dmn 13:14, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's an island and a country. --Merovingian✍Talk 15:51, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)
Is it an island? I thought it was a continent instead.Dmn 15:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
It is an island-continent and a country that is made up of numerous islands, the Australian mainland being the largest. It can be circumnavigated, therefore it is an island. Antarctica would qualify on similar grounds if it was a country.--Gene_poole 23:36, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The island article says otherwise. On every list of the worlds largest islands I've seen Greenland comes top Dmn 00:09, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Please explain how it can possibly not be an island if it can be circumnavigated.--Gene_poole 13:03, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've never heard circumnavigation ever mentioned as a criterion for being an island. It is possible to go down the Atlantic, around the Cape of Good Hope, through the Indian Ocean, up the Pacific and across the Arctic ocean. But this does not make the combined landmass of Asia, Africa and Europe an island - it is too large. As is Australia and Antarctica. Dmn 14:22, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
None of the continents listed are single landmasses so your point is moot. I suggest you revisit your definition of what constitutes an island. The Concise Oxford defines it as "A piece of land surrounded by water" - note a piece - meaning one contiguous landmass - which mainland Australia obviously is.--Gene_poole 21:57, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Is there a term used to describe "mainland Australia" (Australia minus Tasmania, Kangaroo Is, Melville Is, Bribie Is, etc). I guess the same could be also be asked of "mainland Tasmania" (Tasmania minus Flinders Is, Bruny Is, King Is, etc). For reference I've lived in Tasmania all my life and have never heard of a term for either of them! -- Chuq 23:28, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Well if you're a New Zealander I think it's called "West Island", and I've heard that Taswegians refer to it as "North Island". :-) Seriously though, I've never heard of anyone coming to Australia via the overland route - at least not since the last Ice Age - so unless someone can prove otherwise I'm going to keep calling it an island. --Gene_poole 00:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Definition revisited: Three different sources on dictionary.com [1] specifically exclude continents from being islands. There are no definitions that support Australia being an island. Lets just compromise and put a suitable note on the article indicating that there are different views as to whether Australia is an island or not. Dmn 00:56, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
You can argue this semantic point till the cows come home, but the reality is that the nation-state of Australia has NO land borders with any other state, and CANNOT be reached via overland routes. This is a list of island countries, and Australia obviously IS one by all rational definitions of the term - irrespective of whether it is also a continent (which it is). The article should certainly state that Australia is an island-continent - but that Australia is an island-country is simply not a negotiable point.--Gene_poole 01:54, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The geographers' purely arbitrary definition of a continent is any object as large or larger than Australia than can be circumnavigated. The accepted definition of an island is an object smaller than Australia that can be circumnavigated. - SimonP 22:57, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Australia

Australia is obviously an island, as it is a "landmass surrounded by water" as per the Concise Oxford Dictionary definition. It is also obviously a continent. It is commonly referred to as an "island continent". This usage is widespread and international. A Google search [2] for "island continent" Australia returns 26,000 results.--Gene_poole 23:05, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

North America is also an island by the OED definition. Is Canada thus an island country? - SimonP 03:16, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
Can you still drive there from the US?--Gene_poole 03:20, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You can drive from Ireland to the UK. - SimonP 05:31, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
Ireland is rightly noted as a disputed list inclusion, as it currently consists of 2 political entities sharing a single island. Australia is a single political entity occupying multiple islands. As the article introduction states: This is a list of countries which are made up of just islands. This means that they are either a single island or a group of islands. Canada obviously fulfills neither criteria. --Gene_poole 06:20, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If "landmass surrounded by water" is the definition of island, that covers every landmass on Earth. If an island is something capable of being circumnavigated, that also covers every landmass-- provided you have a powerful enough icebreaker. These definitions are, therefore, pretty useless, as it has been decided that some landmasses are islands, but continents. Gene Poole, can you explain why what has been established on island, list of islands by area, and list of islands by population--specifically, that Australia is a continent--must be rehashed here? --Yath 08:31, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The current unambiguous intent of this article is to list political entities that are the sole or primary occupiers of detatched, circumnavigable landmasses. Australia is one such, and as the only example of an island that is also a continent as well as a state it belongs here. --Gene_poole 08:43, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The trouble remains, that Australia is not an island. Or were you referring to the fact that Australia occupies all of Tasmania, and is therefore an island nation? That would make Greece, Italy, France, and any number of additional nations eligible for the list. Looks like the article needs an Also attached to a continent section. --Yath 09:05, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Australia the state comprises multiple islands, the biggest of which is a continental landmass, and I see no justification for excluding it from this list on the basis of that this represents a unique conjunction of taxonomic criteria - namely that it is an "island continent", a fact of which all Australian schoolchildren have been aprised for over a century.--Gene_poole 09:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Google

There are two current arguments over this page. The first is if Australia is an island country. The second is if an "island country" is any country on an island, or only those that are completely surrounded by water. Both of these are debates of English usage. What does island mean? What is an "island country"? Fortunately questions of language usage can be resolved by Google.

Country Google hits for name alone Google hits for name + "island nation" Hits for island nation per 100K Google hits for name + "island country" Hits for island country per 100K Group
Haiti 2,070,000 10,600 5.12 2170 1.05 B
Cuba 11,000,000 23,200 2.11 4040 0.37 A
Papua New Guinea 3,480,000 6,780 1.95 2,840 0.82 B
Madagascar 4,110,000 7,280 1.77 1,800 0.44 A
Dominican Republic 4,920,000 8,150 1.66 1960 0.40 B
Grenada 5,770,000 8,940 1.55 1520 0.26 A
Jamaica 7,250,000 11,200 1.54 3170 0.44 A
New Zealand 12,900,000 16,900 1.31 9230 0.72 A
Honduras 7,750,000 6,200 0.80 904 0.12 C
Malaysia 17,700,000 10,900 0.62 3,790 0.21 C
Australia 61,800,000 29,500 0.48 13300 0.22 D
Canada 103,000,000 26,100 0.25 8090 0.08 C

Explnation:The first column contains the name of the country. The second is how many Google hits each country gets. The third is how many hits the name + "island nation" gets. The next column is the percentage of hits for the country that contains "island nation" times 100. i.e. 1000(Column2/Column3). The fourth column is the number of Google hits containing the name of each country and "island country". The second last column is similar to column four, but looks at the percentage of "island country" compared to the whole.

The final column groups countries based on theri geography: Group A: countries that are surrounded by water (Grenada, Jamaica, Cuba, New Zealnd) Group B: countries that are on islands, but shared with another country (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Papua New Guinea Group C: countries that are neither (Honduras, Malaysia, Canada) Group D: Australia

Conclusions:

  • The first thing that is readily apparent is that "island nation" is a far more common term that "island country" I shall thus rename this page.
  • Australia gets results similar to states that are clearly notisland nations and thus should be excluded from our list.
  • There is no appreciable difference between Group A, states that are the sole inhabitants of islands, and Group B, states that are on islands but share them. Thus both should be on our list of island nations. - SimonP 06:41, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
Leaving aside flawed methodologies and dubious conclusions, there is not a single part of Australia that shares a a land border with any other country. This by definition makes it an island country/nation/political entity/state. No manner of Googling will alter that.--Gene_poole 06:58, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Not if anything as large as Australia is by defintion not an island. "Island of Australia" gets a grand total of 950 Google hits. - SimonP 07:04, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
And as I've already pointed out above, "island continent+Australia" returns 26,000 results. What's your point? If Australia is not an island country, please show evidence of its land borders with other states.--Gene_poole 07:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
You keep bringing up the strawman that anything that is surrounded by water is unquestionably an island. This is not true, most people consider continents not to be islands. - SimonP 07:14, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
It is not a "straw man" argument to state an incontrovertible fact. You assert that an entity that has no land borders whatsoever is, somehow, not an island country. The burden of proof lies on you to show how this is possible.--Gene_poole 07:20, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
It is, however, a straw man to put words in the opponent's mouth. SimonP is not arguing that Austrailia doesn't border on other countries. He is arguing that people do not call Austrailia an island. He has argued this very convincingly. And, oh, "Gene Poole" is undergoing arbitration right now. Samboy 00:48, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I have repeatedly. Anything as large as Australia is a continent and not an island, ergo it is not an island nation. - SimonP 07:24, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)
And I have repeatedly shown that in thousands of instances of cited common usage Australia is referred to as an "island continent". Ergo, it belongs on this list.--Gene_poole 07:27, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Should we also put Canada on the list of islands, since there are thousands of instances of usage (I don't know how a hit on Google becomes an example of "cited common usage") of it being called an "island continent"? Samboy 02:41, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

From the official Australian government website [3]:Australia is the only nation to govern an entire continent and its outlying islands. The mainland is the largest island and the smallest, flattest continent on Earth. --Gene_poole 03:14, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is a good argument as to why we should list Austrailia as an island; "Gene Poole" was able to argue a point without making any logical fallacies, and, more importantly, without engaging in any direct or implied personal insults. That said, the people at Denmark are quite proud to be the owner of the "World's Largest Island", namely, Greenland: [4]. See also about.com, where it states "[Austrailia] is large enough to be considered its own continent". And the Guiness Book of World Records, where it says "[Austrailia] is usually regarded as a continental landmass". Samboy 21:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have altered the opening sentence such that it includes "circumnavigable landmasses". I trust this will prove a resolution to the point of disputation.--Gene_poole 07:34, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Santo Domingo

The island shared by Haiti and the Dominican Republic was named "Hispaniola" by Columbus in 1492, and renamed "Santo Domingo" in 1508 - as per [5] and [6]. I have now noted both versions.--Gene_poole 05:53, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Further research reveals that the names "Hispaniola", "Santo Domingo" and "Haiti" have all at various times been applied to the island - often, it appears, simultaneously (depending on which government was doing the applying). "Santo Domingo" appears to have been in common usage from the 16-19th centuries. The most common contemporary usage appears to be "Hispaniola", but this appears to be a result of the association with Columbus, and it is unclear from official government websites whether Haiti and the Dominican Republic have ever agreed to an "official" joint name. I have therefore noted the various alternatives.--Gene_poole 10:56, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have inserted the phrase "commonly known as Hispaniola" as a compromise statement. It is obviously in common usage, however many modern maps do not ascribe any name to the island as a whole, and no evidence has come to hand to suggest that the Dominican and Haitian governments have ever formally agreed to "Hispaniola". If it is in fact not the formally agreed name, then other alternate appelations should be noted.--Gene_poole 03:46, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What the two governments call it is very much irrelevant, we use common English forms here, and any English map which ascribes a name to it uses Hispaniola (obviously there are political maps which don't label islands that are not political units). Gzornenplatz 04:11, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the research on the subject! Samboy 21:52, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Citations that Australia is/is not an island

Please provide citations of either Austrailia being called an island, or not being called an island here. So far (see above) there have been four citations of Austrailia not being considered an island:

And one reference where Australia is called an island:

So far, we have four citations of Australia not being called and island and one of it being called an island. Other citations are welcome here. Samboy 00:01, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Australia is an island

The following is a small list of citations that refer to Australia as an "island", "island nation" or "island continent":

[edit] Government references

[edit] University, scientific, school and specialist references

[edit] Commercial references

[edit] General references

--Gene_poole 01:15, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think this pretty strongly demonstrates that Australia being called an island. I have reverted the page to Gene Poole's last edit where Australia is considered an island. Samboy 19:42, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hong Kong

Quote from the history of the article

Huaiwei: Hong Kong is not an "Island Nation"

An anonymous reader: Crown Colony of Hong Kong was founded with 1 main island (HK Island) with other areas added afterwards, Taiwan is still using ROC as official title, ...

Huaiwei: Please refer to all other examples in this page to better understand what an "island nation" really is. Hong Kong is simply not one now.

Endquote

I don't see any reason why from 1841 to 1860 Hong Kong wasn't an island nation. In those time the Crown Colony of Hong Kong comprised of Hong Kong Island, Ap Lei Chau, and numerous islands close by. Among all Hong Kong Island is the biggest, and made up the majority of the crown colony. And Hong Kong does fit into the category "former colonies, possessions, protectorates and territories". Vancouver Island, Newfoundland and Tasmania are all listed as a island nations which were former colonies, possessions, protectorates and territories. If you insist "Hong Kong is simply not one (an island nation) now", could you please kindly let me know why, and if I have made reference to the wrong examples. Thank you.

As I said, look properly at the lists of nations listed in this page, and you tell me why should HK qualify. This is not a listing of what HK's colony configuration was like for 19 years more then 140 years ago. It is a contemporary one. One look at contemporary maps of HK it is plain obvious why it is not an Island nation!--Huaiwei 21:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Brunei (occupying a relatively small portion of Borneo) isn't qualified either then, and Dominican Republic, Ireland and Haiti are disputed. I have told you why Hong Kong was qualified. Go get a map in 1840s or 50s of the Crown Colony of Hong Kong and everyone can tell the answer. Even if one gets a map before 1898, Hong Kong Island + Kowloon is just like the case of Great Britain + Northern Ireland.
"This is not a listing of what HK's colony configuration was like for 19 years more then 140 years ago." Some of the states listed experienced boundary changes too. Anywayz, a time frame was added to make it more clear. --22:15, December 8, 2004, UTC
How would you comment Newfoundland + Labrador by the way? --08:33, December 9, 2004, UTC
As I said, I do know the history of HK's geographical extent, so there is no need to repeat it. But you do not seem to grasp the concept of an "island nation" here. Even for Brunei, notice it is listed as being a part of a larger island called Borneo. Unless you are telling me New Territories (excluding outer islands like Lantau) belongs to an "island" called Eurasia, then yes, we shall add it in! Notice Malaysia is not in the list, despite it having more land area on an island? Why should Dominican Republic, Ireland and Haiti also be disputed, and they are all part of islands?
Interesting that Newfoundland is pointed out. Maybe it should be removed from the listing too, eh?--Huaiwei 11:20, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I recognised you've changed the way Hong Kong is listed. The name of Hong Kong Island wasn't developed in those days, and "Hong Kong = Hong Kong Island" before 1860. The extend of the Crown Colony of Hong Kong includes only Hong Kong Island and some small islands nearby. But the name of the colony was definitely Hong Kong but not Hong Kong Island. --16:38, December 9, 2004, UTC
Gotta dig for historical data and see if there is a possibility that the Colony of Newfoundland once covered only Newfoundland island, and extended onto part of the Labrador peninsula at a later stage. But then it seems that Dominion of Newfoundland has always been covering Newfoundland ilsand and Labrador peninsula. Discussion continues below. --17:11, December 9, 2004, UTC
Goodness gracious, but do you not realise this is a listing of islands, and not colonies? First you have to give us a headache by trying to force HK into this list. Now you have to even meddle with Newfoundland and include Labrodor into the picture, when we are only talking about the island called Newfoundland? Are you know changing the definitions of other entires just to validifying your insistance in putting in HK in a format you prefer?--Huaiwei 17:17, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
"Hong Kong" was an island colony. --17:42, December 9, 2004, UTC
I surrendered. Descriptions are moved as notes. --17:57, December 9, 2004, UTC

How many times do I have to say... in those times "Hong Kong" refers only to present-day Hong Kong Island plus small islands nearby, but not the entire present-day Hong Kong territory. From 1841 to 1860, the Hong Kong colony = Hong Kong Island. -- 18:25, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] Republic of China (Taiwan)

Quote from the history of the article

Taiwan is still using ROC as official title, Taiwan in brackets is to avoid confusions

Endquote

In many pages across Wikipedia Taiwan or the ROC is listed with both "Republic of China" (or in short "ROC") and "Taiwan" shown, with either one in bracket, for the convenience of users and accurate description of the state. Why the edits were kept reverted? Thank you.

I think I was not the only one who have been reminding you to please stop enforcing these changes across wikipedia until we have come to a compromise. You are giving us plenty of "excitement" day after day as we had to chase after your edits and review them one by one. And as far as existing conventions goes, it is NOT neccesarily to include "Taiwan" behind every reference to the "Republic of China." If there is anyone who is confused by this, it is probably no one else but yourself (pardon me for getting personal, but I am seriously beginning to loose my patience with all these)?--Huaiwei 21:28, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Okay. I've seen some articles using Republic of China (Taiwan) or Taiwan (Republic of China). I was just intending to do the same for this article.--22:25, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] Newfoundland (and Labrador)

Gotta dig for historical data and see if there is a possibility that the Colony of Newfoundland once covered only Newfoundland island, and extended onto the Labrador peninsula at a later stage. But then it seems like the Dominion of Newfoundland had always been covering Newfoundland island and part of the Labrador peninsula. --17:19, December 9, 2004, UTC

Labrador#The_Labrador_boundary_dispute <-- It tells a little bit. --17:27, December 9, 2004, UTC

We are refering to the Colony in this regard of coz.--Huaiwei 17:27, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From what I've read from sources across Wikipedia and others: Before 1808, the Colony of Newfoundland covers the island of Newfoundland. In 1808, part of the peninsula of Labrador was added. In other words, before 1808, Newfoundland was an island colony. From 1808 onwards, the Colony of Newfoundland, and later the Dominion of Newfoundland, had been an island plus an area on a continent. --17:44, December 9, 2004, UTC
little note: you're chasing me really close that your edits and mine messed up coz we're both editing... lol~
Fine. Anyway, the simple reason why I had to add dates to both HK and Newfoundland's entries, is because they were island colonies only for a specific period before they expanded to include land on continental masses. Both entries (entities) cease (ceased) to be such on 1860 and 1808 respectively.--Huaiwei 17:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thank you. --18:21, December 8, 2004, UTC

[edit] Greenland, Channel Islands (Jersey and Guersey), Falkland Islands, and many others

Should Greenland, Channel Islands (Jersey and Guersey), Falkland Islands, US Virgin Islands, British Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, etc. be added to List_of_island_nations#Autonomous_or_semi-autonomous, or to (a) new category(ies)? --18:18, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] "Shares one or more of its islands with another state"

Seems like for Brunei, Domican Republic, Haiti, etc., it's not quite right to call "its island(s)". The major parts of these countries do not occupy the entire island.--18:30, December 9, 2004, UTC

[edit] Sark

Sark is not autonomous but merely one of the islands making up Guernsey, no? - Randwicked 05:05, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Taiwan Straw Poll

An anon added Taiwan to Current. I'm unsure of the island's status, so I reverted it. I've set up a simple poll here to gauge public opinion over whether Taiwan should be considered an island nation.

[edit] Include

[edit] Exclude

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