Talk:List of gay, lesbian or bisexual composers

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[edit] Move page to include transgendered people?

How about moving the page to include transgendered people in the title, since it's noted as such in the intro? There was question about page titles here before, so I'm just raising the point here before I do Dysprosia 01:23, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've aligned the title with the text now. Hopefully the page is still accurate (if we are still to include transgendered composers here, the page should be moved to reflect this) Dysprosia 06:11, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Page irresponsible because lack of sources

This page is extremely irresponsible. Either you provide sources for this kind of thing or you don't post it. I notice the great 19th century songwriter Stephen Foster is listed here. The authoritative website on Foster states it's a myth he was gay... Some kind of code should be established expressing degrees of certainty for the designation of gay, lez or bi, ranging from "self-described" to "hearsay". If such a code isn't implemented in about a month, I'll be deleting this page. JDG 19:01, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wough, ultimatum. Two sources have been added for many of the names listed. I can't stand the formatting, but I don't know a better way to code sources. Hyacinth 21:33, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC) http://www.pitt.edu/~amerimus/myths.htm
Wough, ultimatum hater. What would you have me say: "If such a code isn't etc., etc. I will be rather upset, I might even cry."? And your new referencing to some webby "Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer Culture" hardly fits the bill. How respected or even noticed is that get-up? What sources do they use?.. Maybe as an alternative to deletion I'll come back and include real sources for every name on your list which dispute the truth of the designation. I'm certain the results will not be flattering JDG
JDG, two things. A) Don't threaten to delete things. You're not an administrator as far as I know (and hence can't deleted pages), and even if you were, we don't use deletion as a way of threatening people if we can possibly be nice. You can easily afford to be nice here. B) We have a number of lists that involve speculation concerning sexual orientation. You may find them controversial (a minority of Wikipedians agree with you), but the community consensus is that they are appropriate. This consensus has been tested several times and has not yet altered. So this list should remain according to that consensus, though you are right that we should endeavor to put up verifiable information, and that sources are preferred, especially when dealing with issues that are naturally sensitive. But let's conduct ourselves politely. Jwrosenzweig 21:58, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
JWR, sorry if I overstepped those shadowy lines of civility. I was using "deletion" in a loose sense, since a non-administrator can effectively delete a page by nuking it back to a stub. I've never taken such a step before, but the potential sullying of people's good names in this article prompts me to consider radical action of this kind. Another case in point: I happen to have recently read a good bit of biographical info on John Lennon. The extent of his reputed homosexual involvement consists of one vacation with Beatles manager Brian Epstein in which the only undisputed fact is that the openly gay Epstein made passes at Lennon, who may have responded, after much wearing down, with one session of, shall we say, "hand action". Not long after this Lennon nearly killed a bloke who refered to him as "a queer". This, especially in contrast to his adult life devoted to one woman, would hardly qualify him for a list of "Famous gay composers". Maybe a page entitled "Famous individuals rumored to have engaged in single homosexual acts" might fit the bill... So, this whole thing is in need of definition as well as decent source citation. JDG
Calling someone "gay" is only "sullying" their name if you think there is something wrong with being gay. RickK | Talk 22:57, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
RickK, you may as well get used to the fact that the vast majority of earthlings still find that categorization to be very sullying, to say the least. You can dismiss them all as dimwitted, de-evolving latent fascists if that's your gig, but they're there and many of the folks on this list would certainly care or would have cared about how they are viewed by this vast majority. It's just how it is. JDG
I agree with you that there needs to be some real clarifying here, and trimming also, and I agree that Lennon sticks out as a very weird inclusion. I just think that we can achieve those goals without resorting to drawing lines in the sand at the outset. I'm glad you seem willing to discuss this. Jwrosenzweig 22:54, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified names

Unverified names on list as of 03/19/04, along with notes by Hyacinth: & Outerlimits

Names since cited are crossed out. Hyacinth 11:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Why were the above removed? We must cite what comes from a specific source but not what does not. Restoring the above. If any are disputed as either gay/lesbians or composers, please remove them individually. - Texture 22:07, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

About a quarter of those names I will verify from personal encounters, experience, and reads from public sources so you can cite me if you need to. Better yet follow this link to a source that describes many of them as composers and gay/lesbian/bi. - Texture 22:09, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The John Lennon "source" provides no proof, it's merely a claim. The exact same book also CLAIMS that Lennon murdered two people, that he was a paedophile, that he was schizophrenic, that he was anti-semitic, and that Yoko Ono was a prostitute and a blackmailer. Would you publish ANY of these as facts just because the book claims they are true? By the same token I could say there's alien bodies buried in Area 51 because there's been loads of books published that claim this. No reliable source has ever said that John Lennon had any relationships with the same sex. He did once go on holiday with Brian Epstein, and an openly fictional film depicted what might have happened on that trip if they'd had a gay fling, but that wasn't the truth, it was a movie script. To me this sums up Wikipedia's problem, people think if something's been written in a newspaper or book or "experience", "public sources" and "personal encounters" then that's proof enough. It isn't, and I'm removing Lennon's name from the list until someone can come up with another source that isn't sensationalist. This also sums up this list's problem: it's very difficult to say who is LGB and who isn't, because as Kinsey discovered there's an awful lot of us who do try both genders even if we never make a habit of it. It's politically convenient to lump people together as LGB, but it's as false as lumping them together into races: what race is Sean Lennon? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC).
Re. "The exact same book also CLAIMS that Lennon murdered two people, that he was a paedophile, that he was schizophrenic, that he was anti-semitic, and that Yoko Ono was a prostitute and a blackmailer": don't think so. Did you actually read the book or make this up? --Francis Schonken 23:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


One does not cite as sources personal encounters. I moved these names to the talk page. If you can verify with a source, or if a name is overwhelmingly common knowledge, then please add back to the list, otherwise, names should stay off. Right now this is a good short list with sources verifying all names, lets keep that up and we won't have to waste time arguing about whether such a list should exist in the first place.Hyacinth

Have you tried Wikipedia? Look at Outerlimits response and read the wikipedia entries for many of those listed. Wikipedia does not require citations for anything unless it is from that source or needs to be proved specifically. Which names do you question? Surely not Elton John, etc.? - Texture 22:19, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The most astonishing "doubted" names: Melissa Etheridge, k.d. lang, Elton John. A citation from those who doubt would be in order... -- Outerlimits

Texture, I have taken your recommendation and began to check wikipedia to verify the sexuality of those listed. However, I've run into the difficulty that wikipedians don't tend to include this information when creating pages.Hyacinth 23:25, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your attention to detail, but is there a need to cite a source unless the information was exclusively provided from that one source? For instance, there are many interviews (not just my own first person) of many of these figures. For that reason, no source is required. When K.D. Lang comes out and says "I am gay" there is no need to verify it with a paper source. Wikipedia does not cite itself as a source (for obvious reasons) and does not need to cite sources for common knowledge. If an artist, or even one of us, were to dispute that, for instance, Elton John is gay and writes his own music then we would remove or correct such information. However, we don't need to cite anything to prove he is. (I may not be explaining this well.)- Texture 23:50, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You, and I, may feel that no source is required, but I'm going to continue to provide sources until the edit war around these LGBT lists stops.Hyacinth 23:56, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
After looking around at the conflict, that probably isn't a bad idea. - Texture 23:57, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
When the cite is to Wikipedia, it's not exactly a source -- more like a cross-reference. I added the Wikipedia attribution for Janis Ian because the article says she "married her long-time partner Patricia Snyder...." If one accepts this assertion as true, which it certainly is ([1]), then she belongs on this list. JamesMLane 00:13, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Composers?

Wouldn't songwriters be more appropriate here? Composer brings to mind classical music for me. Rmhermen 22:07, Mar 19, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe if the list was only songwriters, but a songwriter is a composer, the list is mostly non-songwriting composers, and one could create a seperate list for LGB songwriters, if one wishes to.Hyacinth 22:15, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Might actually be better as both songwriters or composers since one refers to writing the music and one to writing the words. Many here did both but I'm not sure if all did. (wrote this before saw Hyacinth's response - still applies)- Texture 22:16, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Sinead O'Connor

I'm a little fuzzy on this, but didn't she come out as a lesbian and then deny it? Or did she come out as bi and then deny it? Or did she come out as a lesbian and then get married to a man? There was definitely something. Exploding Boy 02:11, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)

Well this is another reason why lists like this are just silly, many people are free and easy with their sexuality but dislike having these kinds of labels applied to them. Richard O'Brien is an example of that, he has openly talked about having relationships with men and women, but doesn't ever label himself with a particular sexuality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk • contribs) 23:01, August 1, 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Langston Hughes

There's nothing in Langston Hughes's wikibio about being a composer. Is the bio incomplete? -Willmcw 06:26, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What has it to do with the music and harmony etc....

Sorry for my poor English.

[edit] Who says Scriabin was gay??

What is the authority for this listing? His own Wiki article makes no mention of his sexuality, and I've read a lot about him over the years and have never read one word about any supposed homosexuality. I've certainly read that he was married with children. If he had another life, how come it's not mentioned anywhere? JackofOz 04:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sweep

I've removed all information that lacked a source from this list, which unfortunately meant most of it. Please cite verifiable sources. Note that Wikipedia itself cannot be considered a source for its own articles. I've also removed all composers that did not have articles, on grounds that a List of any kind of people on Wikipedia should only include people that are somewhat famous. This may seem a bit rash but the list was already rather dodgy, and this talk page is full of complaints about it, so I'm not going to research all redlinks on this page. Radiant_>|< 01:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] AfD results - No consensus

This article was nominated for deletion on November 22, 2005. The result of the discussion was keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

[edit] Eugene Goossens

  • This needs to be disambiguated. There were 3 Eugene Goossens, and the link goes to the disambiguation page, not to the correct person's article.
  • But more importantly, there is nothing in any of those 3 articles about homosexuality.
  • They all have their sources, but the source quoted here is not amongst them.
  • Shouldn't any name on this list have appropriate mention of their homosexuality in their own article?

JackofOz 10:18, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why are transgendered composers on this list?

Why are you including transgendered composers (for example Angela Morley) on a list called "gay, lesbian or bisexual composers"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk • contribs) 22:59, August 1, 2006 (UTC).

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