Talk:List of free party sound systems

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] List started

dutch and czech sound systems are pretty much up to date, czech ones thanks mainly to freetekno.cz ... definitely there are more french and english systems to be added... my knowledge of english systems is pretty london-based. Mujinga 20:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link removed

I have removed the link for one UK system as I'm pretty sure they would not want it advertised so publicly.

Sorry Acidsaturation 19:49, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion notice

I have removed this as I feel that this, as a list, is just a relevant as a list of bands (of which there are many). Within the free-party culture the soundsystem fulfils the same role as the artist in say "goth" culture.

I do propose possible changing the format so it is not so much a list of links though. Acidsaturation 22:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, i changed the page to just a list, rather than a list of external links, so there is no need for the deletion notice. i actually think that in a way having the links is more useful, but in other ways as you already mentioned elsewhere, it better like this. links get broken over time also. i agree the list functions in the same way as a list of rock and roll bands or breakcore artists and thats why i wanted to make it.Mujinga 10:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
As a question, (approximately) how many of the entities on this list would be likely to pass WP:BAND? I accept this is slightly tricky for a non-mainstream genre such as this, but I'm not sure that a list of non-notable things is really worth keeping on Wikipedia. Removing the links doesn't really make any difference: Wikipedia is not a directory, whether it contains links or not. Cheers --Pak21 10:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
We are not proposing articles for each and every one of them. There are numerous lists of musicians with fairly unnotable entries. This isn't really a musical genre - it's a subcultural lifestyle, so the analogy is only loose anyway. I'm hoping this will change over time from just a list to something that more indicates a part of this subcuture, by including information and wikilinks to musical styles, freeparty/rave/danceculture history etc.
I would contest this is as useful/notable as for example a list of Warhammer 40K Spacemarine chapters (to use one example that I note your involvement it.)
I don't think one can compare the use/notability/interest of a band with a release on a small alternative label with a soundsystem that takes music out of the corporate venues to maybe 500 people regularly with a fighting force from a fictional universe. But this is my point - notability is quite subjective, and I agree there needs to be a limit on music perhaps to avoid an article on every back room band in the world, but I don't feel that this breaks that limit. Acidsaturation 12:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


"Warhammer 40,000 (informally known as Warhammer 40K or just 40K) is a science fantasy tabletop miniature wargame, produced by the British gaming company Games Workshop".

To answer your question pak21, i say all the systems on the list qualify under the following spec:

For performers outside of mass media traditions:

  • Has established a tradition or school in a particular genre.

The tradition/school can be defined as teknival parties or underground culture, the genre as free tekno music.

I dont know how you see wikipedia but i see it as a place to build a longlasting, real, alternative history of society. Thid list fits those parameters for me. Here are the lists i was inspired by : list of rock genres, breakcore artists Mujinga 21:01, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

That's all fine, but where is the verifiable evidence for your claim? Cheers --Pak21 08:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Some of it was availible via websites for they systems. These have been removed for various reasons, but the info is availible. Is there are particular issue you have with the subject matter, you do seem very keen to have this page deleted? Acidsaturation 09:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
At the moment, this list looks like advertising for a whole bunch of non-notable groups (used in the widest sense: collections of people). It is policy on Wikipedia that articles must be verifiable, and at the moment, this list isn't, so it would still seem like a candidate for deletion to me. Yes, I know there are many other articles on Wikipedia which aren't verifiable, but I happened to find this one, so... Also, it is entirely irrelevant which other articles I have contributed to on Wikipedia, and that should not be used as any basis for this discussion: to quote from no personal attacks, "Comment on content, not on the contributor." Cheers --Pak21 09:44, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That wasn't aimed as an attack, so sorry if it came across as one. I used the space marines article as an example to show that they are both a subcultural thing that is of interest, notability and relevance to some but not others. What this is is a list of organisations that have been a part of building up the history of an moderately important area of counter-culture, and the beginnings of an article that hopefully will become about, through the history of these groups, part of the history of the culture. Yes, it's unfinished, it's imperfect, it's the beginning - like many articles on wikipedia. And it is not unverifiable, just presently unverified which would be part of it's development and growthAcidsaturation 11:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Just to explain briefly, in addition, the reason I've asked if there is something other than just the issue of verifiability is that as we have attempted to address the concerns you have that make you feel this is a candidate for deletion, you have brought a different one to the fore - ie initially the list of links issue, then the list, then notability etc. Acidsaturation 12:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
This is more than just a list, and these soundsystems are by far culturally important.

Our lifestyles influenced an entire generation and even some forms of national identity with the youth. Free Tekno Soundsystems are the 21st century punk bands, and the Soundsystems that existed up to this year will be considered legends in 10 years, as some of us allready are, Spiral Tribe and Sound Conspiracy for example. Most of these systems multi task far beyond that as say a mere "artist", they supply the sound, the visuals, and many, Spiral Tribe/OKUPE/SPAZ/ have livesets performing and cut twelve inch records and run there own distrobution, like the defnct Network 23 (do they have a wiki yet? if not, there needs to be one). Think of it like , a brand of "experience", the soundsystem being the name brand of the experience. each bringing its own version of a lifestyle, yet all still part of a bigger scene. I am very pleased with this article, i think it represented our culture in a fair, open, honest definition, it should remain, as for unverifiable info, there seems to be several books published now that mention alot those names on the list. another point of interest is that soundsystems often do create sister systems when a member leaves to create a new crew, and if the system has been around for a few years and this steadily creates new offspring, then the list grows, and i know several on that list are related, it would be cool to do a family tree - Jack Acid

[edit] removed extra info

In the US section, i changed:

  • SPAZ - one of the first travelling u.s. tekno systems
  • Pirate Audio - one of the first travelling u.s. tekno systems

to:

  • SPAZ
  • Pirate Audio

because this is a merely a list of systems, if people want to then make pages or stub pages for these systems, that would be great, then the extra info can go there. Mujinga 19:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


Do we want it to be just a list? I'm maybe inclined to get a bit more info which'd challenge the deletion issues about this being just a list? Acidsaturation 20:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep, i think just a list is good, and in time articles can be added about the bigger more influential systems (like the page we already have for Spiral Tribe) Mujinga 11:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Up for deletion a second time

This page has been nominated for deletion again. That seems like a bad decision to me. Please make your thoughts known here. Mujinga 00:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

If all of these entries are referenced from the citations given, then I am willing to withdraw the AfD as the nominator. Kevin 11:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I am gathering citations for the places (online and paper) from which i sourced the original list but of course other people have been adding more systems without citations, so the short answer is no, not all the entries are referenced from the citations given. I have a few thoughts about how we can progress, but I'm a bit tired to pull them together now. I will post more tomorrow (Thursday). Mujinga 22:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Kevin for withdrawing the deletion notice. I am happy the list can stay as I feel it does perform a useful encyclopaedic function. I agree with the need for more citations, as I said above I am putting together citations for the systems I added but I realised i will have to dig a bit deeper for all my data. I think what would be good to discuss here is ONE the verifiability criteria for this particular list and TWO how to present the need for verifiability in the intro paragraph. Mujinga 23:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't like the idea of giving instructions on verification in the article. A HTML comment at the top may be best. Perhaps you should remove the entries that are not in your sources, and then keep an eye on additions to make sure they are verifiable. It's going to be hard because we can't put links to websites into the list. Kevin 08:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


On verification of submissions: I am not going to remove the entries not in my sources because I am assuming good faith on the part of other contributors. I do police the list fairly regularly to correct spelling mistakes and remove obvious vandalism. I happy to keep on doing that.

On how to verify: Im still not quite sure about how to do this. I think a guideline at the top of the article (as an HTML box or text) is helpful. I think a good introductory sentence will do that and it would be good to improve the one which stands there already. The guidelines concerning criteria for membership are here and here.

What is a reliable source in this case? I think the question about whether sound system's own websites should be allowed is still open because although some might indeed be vanity or promotional enterprises, others contain a stack of documentation which can include photographs of parties, music produced by the collective, dj mixes, livesets, videos of parties and flyer images. They are then analogous to artists' official websites. Taking the names from flyers and other documentation which can be verified seems to me to fit under the guideline which states research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. Mujinga 09:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

I delete shockraver from italian sound because is a dj and not a sound system.


[edit] Sources

Here are the sources i used to make the list, in addition to the books already listed as references:

Would these be better in the article references section? I guess they could become a magnet for linkspamming though. Kevin 11:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
yeah, im unsure. i could make it so each country has individual references, but then there will be a lot of duplication. or it could just be a reference list like you suggest ... then it could indeed get linkspammed. i think i will wait for a new idea or to see if anyone else has any ideas Mujinga 00:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/i/s/Talk%7EList_of_free_party_sound_systems_be20.html"