Talk:List of fraternity and sorority mottos

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Contents 1 Conventions and standardization 2 Latin capitalization 3 New look 4 Latest formatting 5 New Additions 6 Fraternity Leadership Association 7 An idea to consider 8 Merge 9 abbreviated mottos 10 Sigma Pi = Σεβαστη Πιστισ = Sacred Trust? 11 Delta Theta Tau 12 Open Motto merged in, now what?

[edit] Conventions and standardization

What sort of format would be good here? Clearly, open mottos should be here. Should we have the Greek, the phonetic Greek, and the english translation? That seems best to me. Some groups have their motto in all caps (see Alpha Chi Rho) while some don't seem to have caps to start each word (see Alpha Delta Gamma) probably because it is a full sentence. So, I propose we duplicate their punctuation and spelling as acurately as possible, even though things like ALL CAPS, can be visually distracting, you never know why a greek org does the things it does!

Also, regarding ΑΔΓ, it seems that the translation of their motto "Γνωσθεντες εφ φιλων" as "A Brother Who Is Helped By A Brother Is Like A City Walled" is a loose translation. Should we have strict and loose translations presented here? For instance, ΛΧΑ's "Χαλεπα τα κααλα" is usually translated as "Naught Without Labor"; however, it can be more loosely translated as "Nothing worthwhile comes without effort" (or something to the same effect). Both translations are recognized by LCA. Does anyone actually know Greek around here : ) ??

What about the initials present on fraternity symbols that are, presumably, abbreviations of closed mottos?

What about mottos that have been disregarded, changed, recently adopted, etc?

Does this list concern fraternities other than collegiate "Greek" fraternities? (Order of Odd Fellows, Masons, etc.) What about collegiate, non-social, fraternities? Alpha Phi Omega is in here already, but there are many other greek orgs--how ambitious are we? By the title, it seems ambiguous.

I presume that most of these issues will be worked out as the article grows. I just wanted to put them on the floor before too much (non-standardized) work had been done.

Oh, yeah, Phi Gamma Delta, doesn't like to have the greek letters used for its name, but they're also the initials of its motto (under the arms). Does anyone know if they take issue with the motto being printed in full in Greek?

That's about it for now. Vijay 03:01, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latin capitalization

Call me anal. But should Sigma Chi's motto "In Hoc Signo Vinces" be first letter caps? It's in all caps on the Coat of Arms scroll, which, since Latin was for a long time written with only capital letters, makes sense. But, was latin ever written with first letter caps? The motto is a complete sentence. I really shouldn't trouble myself over such trivialities. Ah well. Vijay 03:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New look

I just changed the look of the NIC fraternities section. I like the new look — at least the: bold motto [italicsed translation], but I hate the new Table of Contents. Is there any way to supress the adding of section headings to the ToC?

Thought, I guess, instead of section headings, they could just be big bold text followed by the mottos, bulleted. It loses the ability to edit a single fraternities mottos, but it's just as good visually. Hmm. I'll go to bed and see what anyone else has to say later --Vijay 06:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Too large. There are many other lists in the wikipedia, I don't think enlarging the Fraternities and Sororities to that size makes sense. And the equal sign notation is *for* creating the Table of Contents, the size change is a side effect of that rather than the other way around.

I like the bold motto, italicized translation, but some have mottos that are in english from the beginning. Naraht 13:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

All mottos would be in bold, regardless of language and translations into english would be italicised. I agree that the headings were too large, now that I'm looking at it with fresh eyes. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to create editable sections that don't appear in the ToC, though. I think that could be a useful feature. Indeed, other systems, such as LaTeX, allow you to create sections, figures, tables, etc, and escape them from appearing in the table of contents.

So, perhaps after each list item (*) each fraternities' mottos would be a "sub-list" (:*), does that make sense? --Vijay 15:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Latest formatting

I guess bold is overkill, too. I think it should just be plain text followed by the translation, if any. Is Narahat the only other person working here? What's every/anybody think about this, latest, new format?? --Vijay 22:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, the formatting seems a bit disjointed. Instead of:

• Alpha Delta Sigma

• The brilliance of our sisterhood shall be a light for the world.

can't we just make it:

• Alpha Delta Sigma - The brilliance of our sisterhood shall be a light for the world.

?????? At least, it seems the latter is more succinct. --Viannah 20:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Additions

The new additions came from Three Blue Stars. I'm going to expand it to pretty much everything that is there Multi-cultural, Hispanic, Professional, etc. We can always trim. And in this case, mottos, I think we can go with a fairly wide swath. Naraht 13:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I think the best way to look at it for now is to use collegiate based Greek Letter Organizations and collegiate based organizations who consider GLOs as the groups most similar to them such as Farmhouse and Ceres. Naraht 20:47, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Farmhouse is "Greek," just like Triangle and Acacia, even though they don't use Greek Letters for a name. Similarly, Alpha Phi Omega is not, although they do. I'd say the most common definition of "Greek" is a member of NIC, Pan-Hell., or Panhell. Then again, I bet you knew that. On the other hand, I agree with you, in principle: a good start is the college based fraternal orgs. --Vijay 00:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I am an Alpha Phi Omega brother and am the National History Committee representative for the Mid-atlantic. I really don't think *anyone* could come up with a definition of a Greek that everyone would support unless it actually involved those people actually from Greece. Remember the American Fraternity Movement started with Phi Beta Kappa Check out the primary reference work on Greek Letter Organizations. Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities. Naraht 12:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Alpha Phi Omega is Greek as well, but it's not a social fraternity. Also, for example, Kappa Beta Gamma is a national social sorority, but is not part of Panhel. As it stands, the way these organizations are split up is a bit arduous. --Viannah 20:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fraternity Leadership Association

What exactly is the FLA? No wiki, but Google returned a cached article (only). So, as of Mar 8, 2005, the FLA was Delta Kappa Epsilon, Kappa Sigma, Sigma Lambda Beta, Phi Sigma Kappa, Sigma Pi, and Zeta Beta Tau. Of which, most are in the NIC.

Now, this gets confusing. Phi Sigma Kappa on wikipedia, is in the NIC catagory, but, as far as I can tell, is not really in the NIC. I think that's an error, which I'll correct after I verify it. Other than that one, Kappa Sigma seems to be the only fraternity in FLA and not in NIC.

Has the FLA done anything? (It doesn't have a web site, yet.) Since the FLA is "inclusive" (versus "exclusive"), it doesn't really fit as its own catagory since there would be four duplicates (with more on the way?). (Or, "see NIC" references, or "see FLA" references under the NIC catagory.) What about pan-hellenic all-male groups?

Thoughts? --Vijay 03:46, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

There are two overlaps between the FLA and the NIC, there are also two overlaps between the NPHC (KAPsi and Iota Phi Theta) and the NIC. However the FLA seems to have been formed because of issues with the NIC, where KAPsi joined both deliberately and Iota Phi Theta joined the NIC because the NPHC didn't even have rules for how a group other than the original 8 could join. Naraht 12:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

So, is combining the list of NIC with FLA groups the best solution? --Vijay 19:30, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I think so. Naraht 12:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An idea to consider

Hey guys, good job on this page so far. I have an idea that I was hoping we could discuss. What would you think about this article changing from just mottos to a quick-reference chart, like something you might see in the World Almanac. So maybe a table with the org name, colors, founding year and institution, nickname (?), and of course motto. This article is good as it is, but this might make it more useful. (If you don't think it's a good idea to change this page, how about as a separate article?)

Here's an example:

Fraternity	Founding year and institution	Colors	Open Motto
Sigma Nu	1869, Virginia Military Institute	Gold and Black	Love, Honor, Truth

I like the idea, although it extends the scope of the current article. The current article was born as a list of "fraternity secret mottos" before being significantly changed due to verifiability. Perhaps it should change again. This may be a solution to the above issue. Each group could be listed in alpha order, and a catagory for each group could list what umbrella orgs it's associated.

I would like, eventually, for wikipedia to have all the information that Burke's is famous for. Having a comprehensive table like that seems like a step in the right direction. --Vijay 03:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Is anyone not in favor of the merge? — vijay (Talk) 03:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge away... But while we're merging consider that this article, List of social fraternities and sororities, also exists. Should we change our merge targets? Dspserpico 04:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, merge away. I don't know how much information needs to be moved though...

[edit] abbreviated mottos

ΣΑΕs motto is "Phi Alpha," ΖΨs is "Tau Kappa Phi." Do we want to include these abbreviations? The full mottos are presumably secret. How would a SAE or Zete respond to, "What's your motto?" The Zete page lists TKΦ as an oppen motto, so it makes sense to stay, I guess. I haven't yet checked SAE. How about in general? — vijay (Talk) 22:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sigma Pi = Σεβαστη Πιστισ = Sacred Trust?

This motto was initially added to the list with the translation as "Sacred Trust". Now it is untranslated, and I can't find any official Sigma Pi documents giving an official translation. The closest I've found was a newsletter where an article is closed "In Sacred Trust,...". The babel fish translation gives "Respectable Faith", as does my Mac translation widget.

I also don't find any documents giving the greek "Σεβαστη Πιστισ" as their motto, aside from the Sigma Pi wiki-page. This sorta smacks of someone "spilling the beans", but I have no idea if the Sigma Pi motto is supposed to be secret or not. I just can't find any references to it online.

Also, from the official site, I found this passage

Taking a volume of Robert Browning’s poems from a shelf, she turned to A Death In The Desert, and read:

Progress, man’s distinctive mark alone,
Not God’s, and not the beasts’;
God is, they are.

Man partly is and wholly hopes to be.

“That,” Mrs. Bayard said, “would make an excellent motto for your organization.” With this remark she left the room, and her suggestion had accomplished its purpose. A motto had been found.

but that was for the Tau Phi Delta fraternity from which Sigma Pi grew. I don't know if it carried over as a motto for Sigma Pi.

Anyone have any answers? — vijay (Talk) 21:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delta Theta Tau

I've never heard of this sorority, and I'm pretty sure it's not NPC. National Panhellenic Conference sororities are all collegiate; this one is not. It sounds more like a Beta Sigma Phi sort of community-based organization to me. I wouldn't list it under NPC, anyway.

You're right. Delta Theta Tau is NOT NPC. I moved it to the "Other Greek Letter Organizations"... People have to realise that just because it's a national sorority, doesn't automactically make it part of NPC. (sigh) Viannah 20:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Open Motto merged in, now what?

I've merged that data in (all of the stuff other than the Christian Sororities was already there). I guess we remote the suggestion for merger from this page and CFD the other. How do we do a CFD? Naraht 12:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)