Talk:List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall

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List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Go nuts Wikipedian List Fetishists! Coyote-37 15:04, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question

In the fairly Oddparents, Chester and Aj aknowledge, thunder and lightning, which is commonly used to create a scene of excitement or bad things in general, would this count as a breaking of the Fourth Wall? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by No Appologies (talk • contribs).

[edit] Is all this really breaking the wall?

Perhaps I'm confused, but I'm not certain all the references in literature really break the fourth wall. For example, In The Great Gatsby, Nick frequently speaks to the reader, however, he never once (to my recollection) refers to the action of the novel as a fiction, the people as characters in a book, etc. This is listed as breaking the fourth wall, but if it is, then isn't (almost) every instance of first-person narrative? Doesn't the work need to clearly indicate an awarness of itself to break the fourth wall? Please clarify this for me. Thanks.

In a word, yes. In two words, you're right. In several more words with a little nuance, there's room for debate over how the term applies to non-theatrical works. It's a bit like applying the term "cliffhanger ending" to music. At any rate, first person narration does not break the fourth wall. "If on a winter's night a traveller" by Italo Calvino, that's a book that breaks the fourth wall. wasserperson 19:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AfD results

This article was nominated for deletion. The result was keep, although it has been suggested that the article be renamed to Examples of fiction that breaks the fourth wall. For details, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall. --BD2412 T 21:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

So why hasn't the name change been done? This isn't a category, after all. wasserperson 19:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it was only a suggestion, not an actual dictation. EVula 19:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, with refinement-- is there a reason the suggestion hasn't been followed? Are there objections? Or is it just inertia? wasserperson 20:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No one liked the suggestion perhaps? Pacific Coast Highway ^{{blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS}} 20:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I like the suggestion, so before I acting on it, I figured I'd check if there was opposition. Doesn't seem to be much. wasserperson 21:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I object; this article is a list (or, at least, tries to be), rather than just a bunch of examples that would be limited in scope. EVula 21:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above. This is more of a list than a clooective of examples. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS}} 22:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

See, the thing is, I don't think it should be a list. Right now, it's a giant list of sloppy original research. It doesn't offer a better understanding of what it means to break the fourth wall. It's just stuff that people saw and thought "Hey, wow, I should put that on wikipedia!" wasserperson 00:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it sounds like what you want is Breaking the fourth wall. This is a list, and as such, it isn't supposed to define the term. EVula 05:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

What I want is a page that illuminates the topic; what I see is an unencyclopedic list with many entries that don't belong. I don't think there's any more sense or meaning in a list like this than there would be in a list of books that begin with incomplete sentences.wasserperson 05:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "illuminates the topic"? EVula 05:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

A good list adds to the reader's understanding, offers new insight into the range and depth of the topic/category... This list is confused, unencyclopedic, and consists mostly of original research.wasserperson 01:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, this entry is meant to be a list of examples. If you want information on the topic, go to the parent article. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{blah • Happy Halloween! • WP:NYCS}} 00:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

And again again, this list is confusing and sloppy. I don't mean to offend people who have come up with these examples and added them (although that's part of the problem--that's all original research, isn't it?). But this list takes a sophisticated dramatic theory concept and turns it into gibberish.wasserperson 01:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

If looking up original source material and adding it to Wikipedia constitutes "original research", then Wikipedia is certainly in trouble. But I agree that this article needs more organization. Val42 02:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I second that. OR is providing information that is new - hence the word "original". Basically relating a widely available storyline such as a TV or movie plot is not breaking NOR as it relates directly to a primary source. Speculation and wild interpretation is another thing, but it is not an NOR violation to say there are episodes of Doctor Who where the title character addresses the audience. Verification is easily obtained by watching the source. 23skidoo 03:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

But direct audience address ISN'T breaking the fourth wall. If it was, then all of Shakespeare should be listed. Not to mention about half of all the Saturday Night Live skits, and hey, what about every Mad Magazine movie parody ever? I'd guess at least 3 out of 4 entries on this page are the only place on the internet where that show is discussed as "breaking the fourth wall." That seems like OR to me.wasserperson 20:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Clean-up

Many (if not most) of the items on this list lack uniform formatting, and are therefore hard to read individually. Many are, in fact, written as if they were part of a larger paragraph, while others are written correctly as items of a list. Additionally, they are not organized (alphabetically), making it even more difficult to find a particular item you're looking for. This needs considerable attention from several contributors to bring the article up to par. We need to come up with a proper format for the items, and then (preferably) divide the work by genre among several editors. --Ilyag 17:55, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Although if deletion was still up for discussion, that'd be my preference.

[edit] Spongebob episode?

My family lovse watching Spongebob Squarepants. I happened to see the fourth wall broken on that show once. Had something to do with those two old superhero characters ... wish I could remember the episode or exact situation. Anybody who knows a spongebob fan might try explaining what the fourth wall is and see if any results register lol

[edit] Novels and dramas that break the fourth wall

Both sections are problematic, since breaking the fourth wall is normally a director's choice (and might happen in nearly any staging). This is the first I've seen of a novel being described as breaking the fourth wall. Is the concept even applicable? Durova 01:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it is, for the most part. Especially for novels where the assumption is that the narrator addresses the reader as if telling a story, it doesn't really even break the spirit of the fourth wall. Maybe for something like The Neverending Story, where the whole premise is breaking the barrier between story and audience, but not something like Catcher in the Rye. I think most of those examples should be removed.--ragesoss 06:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If anything, things like Alex in Clockwork Orange addressing the reader reinforces the Fourth Wall, by creating the pretense of him telling you his life story. Nik42 19:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree, to an extent. 'To break the fourth wall' has grown into an idiom meaning to call attention to or admit that a work of literature IS a work of literature, i.e., that a novel is a piece of fiction created by an author, or that a play is being performed on a stage by actors in front of an audience. Therefore, yes, fiction can break the fourth wall, but no, a narrator speaking to the reader does not do so, at least not in and of itself.

There's a few books that do effectively break the fourth wall. If on a winter's night a traveler is one. wasserperson 19:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Music?

I might be the lone voice in the wilderness on this, but I see no need to start listing songs that basically contain second person references. By the very nature of music, we could well end up listing thousands of songs. Plus songs aren't fiction in the same way as dramas are. What are people's thoughts -- should be allow songs or shouldn't we? 23skidoo 03:13, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Good luck keeping people from adding them though. Sigh. Coyote-37 09:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Meta-reference?

The article Meta-reference seems to be walking the same path as this one, and also includes a list similar to the one here. Maybe the two articles should be merged? 23skidoo 21:47, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video game section issues

Two things:

1. Re: the above comments concerning entries that don't technically "break the fourth wall" -- I've been working on the video game section today and I find that it's much worse in this way than any of the other sections that I've done so far. I know very little about video games, but to me it doesn't particularly break any walls for the characters in the game simply to address the player or to give instructions. The same goes for most of the meta-references. In the absence of any objections, I'm planning to pull those kinds of entries to a subpage until I can find a better place for them. (I have similar plans for some of the other sections as well, but I'll get to that later.) I'd welcome any comments on this idea.
2. As I said, I know next to nothing about video games, so I'd really appreciate any help I can get with checking this section for appropriate phrasing, accuracy, etc. All I've really done with it so far is edit for mechanics, formatting, clarity, removing redundancy, etc. I do plan to go back through and work out the sometimes awkward third person pronoun issues, but other than that and the plans outlined above I'm more or less at a standstill on this section.

Thanks in advance for the help. -- edi 05:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

According to the actual article on Final_Fantasy_Mystic_Quest, Zelda's appearance is an untrue rumour. 128.232.250.254 08:46, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree hat it is not breaking the fourth wall if a game's characters address the player or give instructions, however if, for example, two characters within a game are conversing with each other, and mention the fact that they are in a game, and that someone has control over their movements, outside of the context of a tutorial or some such, that might still qualify. Dansiman 08:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should list video game things like the main character tapping their foot, etc. However, a recent edit added that in one of the Sonic games they would actually walk away and end the game - that's a little more significant. But is there really anything better than Duke Nukem's, "Don't have time to play with myself..." ;) — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib Reverts} 13:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Pan, anyone?

• claps*

[edit] Include Under Web Comics: "Player Vs. Player"

I'm surprised it wasn't already listed, as I can remember a number of times in which this has been done (sometimes as the overall key to a particular story arch).

Be Bold!--293.xx.xxx.xx 06:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The following things are not breaking the 4th wall in video games

• Having a character address the player as "Captain" or something. This is called immersion, and is in character.
• Characters giving controller instructions. e.g. "Press A to shoot" Ok, technically it is, but it's not noteworthy.
• Characters doing things when left alone. I had to remove things like "Mario falling asleep in SM64 when left alone". Unless the character directly interacts with the player when left along (e.g. Sonic) then it's not breaking anything.
  

In short, don't post those sort of things.

Agreed. -- RevRagnarok 01:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redundant section?

Is there any real difference between "10 Animated movies and TV/Anime" and "4 Animated television"? AnonMoos 22:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are hidden tracks really breaking the 4th?

I don't think so, so I just reverted:

• On Pink Floyd's Rock Opera Classic The Wall, on the song Empty Space before the vocal starts you would hear backwards speaking, when you play the track backwards you would hear Roger Waters congratuating you for discovering the secret message.
• In The Begining of Type O Negative's October Rust, on the track "Bad Ground", the track sounded like static like theres somthing wrong with your Stereo, after that theres a untitled track with the band cracking up then asked the listeners that they liked the prank and thanking you for purchasing the album. At the end of the album has Pete Steele ending the album by telling that its the end of the album and hoping that the listeners did not find the album too disapointing.

...but if others think they are they go back... — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib Reverts} 10:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should count either. If for no other reason, songs rarely fall into the category of "fiction" anyway. EVula 14:43, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split discussion

Okay, the article is 174k in size, and is very unwieldy, both to edit and to read. Most of the sections (Live action films, Live action television, Animation, and Video games) have enough content in them to warrant their own articles. EVula 16:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• I have started splitting the article. I hope others can look at how I've proceeded and help me in the same vein. -- Wikipedical 17:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• I think it would be better to just rip out 99% of it as WP:LC and limit each to a line or two. — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib} 21:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
• BTW, I added the copyright tags as above - any more splits you do, please tag for GFDL. — RevRagnarok ^{Talk Contrib} 21:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• How about a straw poll, then? "Listcruft" is a debated term and not official policy, and therefore open to interpretation. --Stratadrake 00:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the collosal list of animation examples is fannish, listcruft, boring, and unencyclopedic. It could be covered with two or three sentences explaining the ways that the fourth wall is regularly broken in animation. Same for video games.wasserperson 19:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video Games

All video games are immersive. The player is part of that action. Just refrencing the player is not breaking the wall.

[edit] Too many bad examples.

I have gone through and removed several poor examples from literature. I removed many examples that were simply first person narration or direct address. If anyone is interested, I will post the removed entries here and give my reasons. I am planning to do the same trimming on the animation, TV, and video game sections. I don't want to do this in a one-sided way, or invite a revert war etc, so I welcome any constructive advice on how to keep this list manageable and meaningful (i.e., not just any piece of fiction that ever refers to an audience). wasserperson 19:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Think we can forge some guidelines as what constitutes breaking the fourth wall (or, conversely, what does not)? For example:

• "Second-person" narratives (e.g. Choose Your Own Adventure books or video games), by themselves, are not enough to count as breaking the fourth wall.
• Use of the fourth wall as a narrative device (e.g., Last Action Hero) certainly does NOT count.
• Addressing the reader while in the role of a narrator (e.g., "Call me Ishmael") does not count.
• Short, momentary asides to the reader or camera do not count as these could be excused as the character merely thinking to themselves and not actually addressing the audience.

--Stratadrake 13:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I'd add:

• Cameos by the author or characters from other books
• Narration references to the tone, accuracy, or other aspects of the writing that are stylistic (and not actual plot points).

wasserperson 18:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could define a list of general characteristics and then split it up into specifics for each type of media. For example, in videogames, an in-game tutorial does NOT count as breaking the fourth wall (even if delivered via an in-game character) -- they could arguably constitute building the fourth wall because in order to get 'immersed' in a game, the first thing any player needs to know is how to work the controller and do things in-game. --Stratadrake 01:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes! Different genres and mediums have different standards for suspending disbelief, promoting immersion, and setting the boundary between story and audience. Broadly, a work breaks the fourth wall when it purposefully departs from the standards of its own medium, genre, and style. Specifically, there's a clear difference between departing midway through the narrative, and just not using a particular standard at all.wasserperson 21:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria subpage

• Talk:List of fiction that breaks the fourth wall/Criteria

I've created a criteria & discussion page for helping arrive at a consensus on how to keep these article lists discriminate and useful. Feel free to contribute. --Stratadrake 02:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List is out of control

Breaking the fourth wall is hardly a uncommon or even modern device (the chorus in Ancient Greek plays performed this function). A comprehensive list or even group of sublists would have thousands, even tens of thousands, of entries. This list should be cropped to become much more selective. Certainly one-off gags should not be counted. Bwithh 04:34, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

That's why I created a subpage (see previous post) to help refine some criteria for what is notable enough for the list. --Stratadrake 13:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)