Talk:List of dictators/Ho Chi Min

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User:CJK has twice added Ho to the list. However, this assertion is not supported by the corresponding WP article, and no external citation is provided. I am not comfortable slipping in names that seem to be supported only by general political sentiment rather than specific citation. Can we please fix this (by either removing name or giving context and evidence). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 22:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I took it back out again, since no citational support was added. I think the case is really borderline on the facts, from my own knowledge, but since the WP article doesn't support the inclusion and no external cite is given, I just have to go on WP:V on this. Whatever my own feeling on a figure is, it's worthless without verifiable evidence.

Btw. Several editors have included names by analogy. "If Mao is included, Ho should surely be"; "If Stalin is included, Lenin should surely be". This is poor reasoning. I have a hunch it's mostly POV, implicitly arguing "X is just as bad as Y." I.e. it's about pejorative characterization, not about match with the criteria we've presented. But either way, the analogies are not helpful, no ruler is a "superset dictator" of another—they each fit or don't based on their own context and actions, not on someone else's. For that matter, we may well decide to remove X later, based on more investigation, which should not cascade to the auto-removal of Y; names listed should each be listed on independently supportable basis. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:21, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't have to "source" Ho as a dictator any more than I would have to source Joseph Stalin or Mao as dictators. Can you dispute that 1. He was not elected and 2. He was the leader of a party that ruled the country? CJK 21:16, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I mean, I really hope that you don't need evidence to prove that Ho was unelected. CJK 21:22, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither of the criteria stated by CJK match the definition of "dictator" that we use on this list (Ho's page does indicate his election, but that's not essential). Neither of the necessary criteria we do use seem to be satisfied of Ho. Again, vague analogies with other figures do not help us here.

I don't want to make too much of a different simplistic analogy either. But CJK, apparently out of a political agenda, makes edit comments that equate "communist" with "dictator". This much is certainly false. For example, no one has argued that Kruschev should be listed (and I sure hope no one so argues). He served as party chairman (like Ho), but in a context of a joint influence of the central committee (that eventually, in fact, peacefully removed him). While all these analogies are partial and selective, I see Ho as much closer to Kruschev than to Stalin (or even Mao Zedong post-1966; I wouldn't include Mao pre-1966); most importantly, Ho's article supports this view much more closely than CJK's analogy. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:31, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

So what you are saying is that those that lead a party dictatorship should not be included? CJK 21:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

They should not be included solely on the basis of chairing a party in a single-party state. Using the word "party dictatorship" is obviously trying to sneak in a circularity by definition. But leaving that slight-of-hand to the side, we need to see if a given individual meets the inclusion criteria stated on this page.

My first intuition on reading the addition of Ho is that he would not meet these criteria, but I read his WP article before taking it out. Had the WP article supported the inclusion (even if I personally would opine differently), I would have left the name listed. What seems "blindingly obvious" to CJK seems fairly counter-intuitive to me; judgments and knowledge vary. That's why we need to follow WP:V and WP:NOR in listing names. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:43, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

And please do not make accusations against me. I am not here to push a single POV on this artivle. CJK 21:41, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

I just looked at your talk page, and I see that you have been involved in a number of prior conflict over your wish to more negatively characterized Ho than do other editors. That raises some suspicion that you have a POV bias; this impression is enhanced by the fact that your only edits on this page have been to list Ho (with inadequate to non-existent citational support). I confess that if one of the editors who had annotated a number of different names from various times and places had added Ho, I might have given the addition less attention. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 21:51, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

CJK, I hate communists as much as the next objectivist, but Ho does not appear to have been a dictator. He was nasty and brutal - but not a dictator. jucifer 23:40, 7 December 2005 (UTC)