Talk:List of dictators/Deng and Mahathir

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[edit] Deng and Mahathir were NOT dictators

Their contributions to lifting millions out of poverty and to industrial progress rank them along side gret statesmen like Franklin Roosevelt. Their only crime was rejecting neoliberalism and neocolonialism, and thus lifting their nations out of poverty and backwardness-- for which some people around here will never forgive them. Deng was merely the most respected elder of a collective leadership. Mahathir was elected. They were NOT dictators. Cognition 21:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• Mahathir called himself a dictator. Dictatorship has nothing to do with the achievements of a government, it has to do with the level of influence someone exercised within a state. Mahathir and Deng were actually world leaders in allowing capitalism and neocolonialism to destroy their countries. Thinking they were anti-imperialists is a joke. —Sesel 22:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Leaders in allowing capitalism and neocolonialism to destroy their countries? According to members of the Maoist Red Guards, maybe. You'll find it difficult to get a sane person to agree with you on the virtues of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, though. User:Cognition
    • Please lets not discus the dangers of colonialism and communism. The only question is whether they were dictators. Whether on not they were nice doesn't even come in to it. Please bear this in mind before you remove someone from this list.
    • The only ground for removal:They were not a dictator. jucifer 01:59, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I think I tend to agree on the exclusion of Deng and Mahathir. Not on the basis of whether they were or were not respected, nor on the basis of whether I like their industrial policies, but on the actual list criteria. Mahathir does not seem to have really discarded rule of law, and he was elected. Maybe not terribly fair elections, and certainly amendments to reduce royal powers were to his benefit. But parliment was involved in the legislative/constitutional changes. Whether Mahathir called himself a dictator isn't really relevant if he does not fulfill our stated conditions. I could call myself one, but I should be listed here (Mahathir claim is, of course, less unreasonable than mine; but a claim alone isn't sufficient).

Deng is excluded, I think, on the absolute ruler category (though it's borderline). The Communist Party bureaucracy certain excercised great control, but I don't think you can attribute it to Deng alone. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 02:17, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I dunno about Deng, but Mahatir should stay IMHO - but with a notemaking clear the borderline position. jucifer 02:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

All major policy decisions had to be approved by Deng (even though he held no official party of state post that would formally grant him veto powers). This was stated, for example, by Zhao Ziyang when he met with Gorbachev in 1989 (in an attempt to discredit Deng for still clinging onto power). While the government under Deng was only authoritarian and no longer totalitarian, the basic thrust to devolve power to local institutions and to loosen government controls on the economy and society originated from Deng. Perhaps it can be mentioned in the notes that power was delegated, but I think Deng should stay.--Jiang 04:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

No, he should not. Granted he was able to oust Zhao Ziyang, but there is no evidence that he had dictatorial powers in his own right without the consent of other revolutionary elders such as Chen Yun. It is blantant POV to list a man who was so obviously not a dictator in any sense of the term here, even with "a note making clear the borderline position" proposed by another editor. If users opposed to Deng's program of industrial modernization can get Deng listed here, then I should be able to list Dick Cheney-- someone I consider to be a dictator. But if users like Jiang can avoid "disrupting Wikipedia to make a point," I can too. Cognition 19:47, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

see [1]. "Deng's program of industrial modernization" is entirely irrelevant here. The question to ask is, were there political opponents of Deng would got their way over Deng's wishes? Even Mao had to back down for periods of time, such as following the Great Leap Forward, but Deng clearly had his way the entire time. Besides the first point, the second point "governed outside the rule of law" clearly applies as Deng did not hold key positions, but was able to purge and fire those ranked higher. The third, "came to power through fraud or coup" applies also, given how he outmaneuvered Hua Guofeng to obtain power. --Jiang 20:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

You'd have to be a psychic to make those claims. The way Deng and his generation of revolutionary elders operated was so opaque that we would simply not know when he was unable to get his way, much less know for sure that he never failed to get his way. Nevertheless, when internal documents like the Tiananmen Papers-- assuming that they were not forgeries-- were smuggled out, it starts to become clear that in events when he did get his way, the backing of other elders such as Chen Yun was critical in overruling the formal party leadership. Deng was not a dictator but rather the most respected elder statemen in a poltical system that worked in a way much different from Western styles of government. The term dictator fails to describe his influence and his role in China. It is Western-centric and does not belong in an encyclopedia claiming to adhere to NPOV. Cognition 21:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm convinced by the book quote. I think Deng should be in with extensive notes. jucifer 23:15, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm OK with Deng's inclusion if we can add some specific citation like that Jiang suggests, and give carefully worded context of the role of the CP party structure. Probably if I were writing this list all by myself, I would still omit Deng, but the case presented is reasonably well argued, as long as the list annotation contains the main concepts. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 03:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)