Talk:List of characters in Saint Seiya

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Contents 1 Zeus 2 Saga and Ares 3 Gigantomachia 4 Error in Profiles 5 Asgard God Warrior Info 6 Saori 7 Clean-up 8 Naming Conventions 8.1 About the 3 Hell's Judges 8.2 About the L/R in the names 8.3 The Cassios/Casios and Esmerarda/Esmeralda issue 8.4 The Tremy/Ptolemy/Tramy issue 8.5 The Kanji/Furigana issue 8.6 Aroon or Alone? 9 Episode G details 10 Character Catagories 11 Convention on attack names and translation 12 Character Name Links 13 Power level of the Gold Saints 14 Casios and Esmerarda 15 Request for Comment/Vote: Name translations 16 What to take as canon?

[edit] Zeus

I where wondering if Zeus should be noted. Kurumada did after all go through the trouble of drawing him, hinting to Tenkai Hen. [[1]]

[edit] Saga and Ares

Didn't Ares reincarnate in Sagas fully grown body just to cheat and attack Athena?

No, there has never been any link between Saga and Ares. The god of war never appeared in Saint Seiya. Folken de Fanel 23:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats up for speculation-User:Merlin Storm

Yes, Kurumada has hinted towards it in the official SS Hypermyth. "Between all the Holy Wars fought, the one against the God of War, Ares, was the most tough for the Saints. It is said that Ares is the most violent of the Gods. He grew seeds of conflicts everywhere in the world and inspired the war to humanity"

"The interesting thing about the purification of the sanctuary is that there were Golden Saints who followed the Pope of the Sanctuary knowing he was evil. The Saints of Athena, warriors protecting justice and thinking that "power is justice" is something very abnormal. Maybe someone had put evil seeds in them?"

No, the hypermyth talks about Ares because it's a greek god, thus it's perfectly normal that Athena had dealings with him.

However the hypermyth never hints as Saga being Ares.

Besides, Saga being called "Arles" (which is a more correct translation than Ares) is only is the anime. The anime script-writers gave this name to the Pope, however they didn't know yet that Kurumada decided Saga was the Pope.

So the script-writers, to explain the incoherence, wrote a short story in one the artbooks, saying that Arles was Shion's younger brother, and that Saga killed Arles first and took his identity, then he became the Pope under the name Arles.

So really, all this has nothing to do with the god Ares.

Folken de Fanel 20:50, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I where signifying "Maybe someone had put evil seeds in them?", which could have been related to "He grew seeds of conflicts everywhere in the world and inspired the war to humanity". And yet in the sanctuary arc the bronze and gold saints all said Sagas cosmo felt like one of a god. Still one would ask themselves if they had ever felt a gods cosmo.

[edit] Gigantomachia

I filled up on the missing info, from this novel.

[edit] Error in Profiles

I totally disagree with add years Birth dates. Despite of the fact there are a date in a calendar in one chapter of the anime, Kurumada hasn´t give any infomation abou years in the character's profiles on any source (for example, Saint Seiya Taizen). The theory is good, but i think we have to base our information on the manga version, instead of using a possible mistake ocurred in the anime. In my opinion we have to removed years in each profile because they are not based on official information.--Robvaler 14:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S.: By the way, other pages with better information about Saint Seiya haven't put years either.

• You are right, I don't think years really fit in the Saint Seiya world. But in the very first chapters of the manga, Kurumada does indeed give a precise date, which marks the beginning of the Galaxian Wars (Galactic Tournament): September 10th, 1986. 1986 was simply the year when Kurumada started his manga (it was also the year when he wrote this precise chapter of the Galaxian Wars). Many, many fans took this date litterally, and assumed the story happened in 1986. They used it to calculate the year of the last Holy war, which happened "243 years ago" : 1743. The date was also even used by Megumu Okada in his official (and yet non-canon) manga Saint Seiya Episode G.
  But while it would not be totally incoherent to assume the main story happens in 1986, there are also many issues and discrepancies with the dates in Saint Seiya:
  if we read all the (elusive) time indictations in the manga, we can deduce that the Sanctuary arc (the fights with the Gold Saints) happens approx. 2m months after the Galaxian Wars: so it would be november 1986, in winter, yet the Sanctuary obviously happens in spring time. Moreover, we learn that the Poseidon arc happens approx "one month" after the end of the Sanctuary arc (it's said by a doctor that the Bronze Saints have already been in the hospital for 1 month since they fought in the Sanctuary, when the Poseidon arc begins), AND we know that the Poseidon arc opens with Julian Solo's birthday (and we know from the characters data in one of the manga volumes, that Julian was born on March 21st) : which means that the Sanctuary arc actually occured around the end of February/beginning of March 1987. So there is a 3 months difference between what the elusive time indications said and what the precise dates are. Which means, for me at least, that even Kurumada didn't thought the year or the dates were really important for the drama.
  Even worse, still looking at the time indications, the Hades arc (the finale chapter of the manga) ends approx 1 month after the Poseidon arc, which would mean around April/May 1987. Yet in the all new Saint Seiya manga that Kurumada is currently drawing, (named "Saint Seiya Next Dimension", which the 1st chapter was pre-published in a magazine 2 months ago), in which Kurumada is directly continuing the Hades arc without time interruption (while he had stopped drawing the original manga 15 years ago), it is suddenly said that the Hades arc occurs in 1990 (!!), which was simply the year in which Kurumada stopped drawing his Hades arc and ended his manga (for some years only).
  So with all that, can we say that there really is a time coherence in Saint Seiya ? Maybe the "1990" thing will be modified when the manga is bound and published, but nobody knows.
  Technically, the story happens between 1986 and 1990 (and it would be more accurate to stay on the "1986"), yet no one can really be sure, and I think we could concider that it happens "now", when we read it.
  Anyway, mentionning birth years would be a mistake, since no official source mentionned ANY years, and since we're not even completly sure of the year when the story happens. Folken de Fanel 00:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Asgard God Warrior Info

I'm adding images and more info about Asgard God Warrior. I hope i could finish this week--Robvaler 07:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saori

Saori needs a larger mention, if not her own article! She has made almost as many appearances as the rest of the bronzes- and anyways, she shouldnt be at the very bottom...

I moved her to the top, similar to the way Japanese Wiki Saint Seiya page has it. Hopefully we'll get around to giving her own article/page link sometime later.Yajaec 22:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

A little bit too much of NPOV violation in the last edits. Folken de Fanel 14:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming Conventions

• Jaguar : In japanese, his name is ジヤガー (Jiyagā), which is the exact transcription of the english word "Jaguar" in the japanese language (see the japanese article for Jaguar). So his transcribed name should only be "Jaguar".

• Maya : his name isn't related to Hermes or mythology. In japanese, his name is written in kanji, 摩矢(Maya), which means, litteraly, "Evil arrow". 摩 (ma) = "evil", 矢 (ya) = "arrow".

It should be noted that Seiya's name (星矢, seiya) means "arrow-star" (星 (sei) = "star" , 矢 (ya) = "arrow", so it's not mere chance if the two fought together...

Folken de Fanel 17:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jaguar's name is written with a small "ヤ" therefore making the romanji "Jagaa" Here's some verification. [[2]]

Refuteku 17:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Just a minor correction, kanji for evil is actually (魔) and not (摩)

here is the link for the meaning of similar sound kanji -

http://www.mandarintools.com/cgi-bin/wordlook.pl?word=mo&searchtype=pinyin&where=whole&audio=on

[edit] About the 3 Hell's Judges

巨頭 means Leader, Commander, Big Boss. They are fan-nicknamed Judges due their names's origins, but only Minos is an actual Judge, the other are never seen or said do the same. So I think: Hades's Three Leaders (冥界三巨頭)

Note: due their name they are nicknamed by fans as "Three Judges", but the only real Judge is Minos.

It's true, these 3 people should be translated to Leader/Head, not Judge. I don't even think Minos is a judge, where did you get this info? Ric 01:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it was a comment by Balrog Lune, stating that he is judging the dead who enter Hell as a representative for Minos.

Technically, those 3 characters are meant to be the actual incarnations of the mythological Rhadamanthys, Aiakos and Minos. And in greek mythology, they were the 3 main judges of the Hades (that is, "hell"), with Minos being the chief judge. Folken de Fanel 21:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Not reeincarnation. Or better: in no official source there is anything suggesting they are the mythology guys other their name. But if we go by names then Pisces Aphrodite is the reincarnation of the Goddes, Cerberus Dante is a poet etc etc. Also, there is King Minos in EpG, and he's treated as a different guy from Griffon Minos. And still this has no importance: they are known as the "Underworld's 3 Leaders": I dubt they would had been called this way were them supposed to be all Judges. More likely only Minos is a Judge.Sirtao 11:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

They are reincarnations. It was stated by a Specter, I think it was Gigant, that the 108 Specters were not mere living dead like Saga and the others, but humans in which the 108 Specters had reincarnated.

Thus Rhadamanthys and the other 2 are meant to be incarnations of the mythological figures who were the original Specters. They were originally the 3 rulers/leaders of the Hades (which was what they were in mythology : the main judges, thus the rulers/leaders) and the fact that Minos is presented as the main judge by Rune corresponds the fact that in mythology, Minos was the chief judge.

But here, I'm not denying they're called "3 leaders" in Saint Seiya, just that they were also Judges, even though it wasn't their proper titles. Folken de Fanel 11:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the L/R in the names

We all know that the japanese language doesn't have two separated characters for the L and R sounds. Instead, they have one character, which is a mix between the L and R sounds, and which is transcribed in romaji as "R...".

Thus, the japanese, when they want to adapt occidental names in the japanese language, have no choice but to systematically use the japanese "R..." characters to transcribe the L and R letters.

Thus, transcribed back to the occidental alphabet, these names can equally be written with L or R. The only way to really know which letter is correct, is to know the actual origin of the name.

For Saint Seiya, Masami Kurumada's inspiration is mainly in the greek mythology and the greek culture (even if references taken from other cultures are also seen).

For example, we know that the correct and official translation of Aiolos/Aioros is Aiolos, because it's a reference to the name of the greek god of wind.

In the same way, it's Aiolia instead of Aioria, because Aiolia was a region in Greece influence by the god of wind.

And, we know it's Milo instead of Miro, because it's a reference to the Venus de Milo, and Kurumada, in the character's biography, even wrote that Milo was born in the Milos island, in greece...

Folken de Fanel 18:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Cassios/Casios and Esmerarda/Esmeralda issue

As said in the Esmerarda and Casios discussion. Even though the Japanese translation of L and R can be an issue as the "proper" name does look better and makes more sense, I think it's best to edit the article according to what was officially published (Saint Seiy Encyclopedia), and we can make note along with it regarding the more commonly known names (astrology or mythology wise) such as Argeti (published in the encyclopedia) is named after the star Algeti (astrology name) in the Hercules constellation.
The reason for this suggestion is because, first of all, it "is" officially published therefore it has an official citing source to be referanced from.
And secondly, for those Saint Seiya readers that does not follows astrology or mythology, they would search this site using what was published (what they read from) as for example not many readers would know that Argeti/Algeti is one of the star on the Herules constellation. If there's an official english version of Saint Seiya Encyclopedia published, could some one check if they "fix/change" the character's names?
But for now, before I or any editors make the change, would anyone oppose that we edit the name as it was published and just add note to it for the more commonly known names (astrology or mythology wise)?Yajaec 19:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please be serious. We all know the japanese have no choice but to transcribe both Ls and Rs with the only "R..." katakana they have. But seriously, we absolutely can't take the literal transcription of these katakana, because it means nothing. All those names used in StS are real names, mainly from mythology or literature. They were just transcribed into japanese, because as you know, the japanese don't use occidental letters, and don't have the same pronunciation. They are obliged to "adapt" the names to their language if they want to be able to understand it and to know how to pronunce it the closest way possible to the actual pronunciation. Of course these words won't look the same when translated into katakana.

But it doesn't mean we have to follow literally the katakana. We're on an occidental Wikipedia. If the names used are occidental, they'll be written in their correct, original form. Not the romaji form.

Leave it to the japanese. Here we don't write in katakana.

As for your "encyclopedia", I don't know what you're talking about. I have the original japanese Taizen ("Saint Seiya Encyclopedia", if that's what you mean), and I can assure you the names are only in Kanji/Kana, not in Romaji. So I don't know what's your source for these "translations"

Then, I already explained to you the japanese we're not used to write in Romaji. They are always messing up things, precisely because of the differences between L and R.

That's why in some official products, we have completely erroneous translations like "Rizard Misty", "Santol Babel", "Argor Perseus". Thus these "official" products are not to be taken into account, since they're not accurate.

But anyway I can't see what is your source for these odd "translations".

And now, a little detail. In japanese, it's カシオス ("Kashiosu"). You'll notice it's not "Kaziosu". It's important because in english, in the middle of a word, a single letter "S" is pronunced [Z]. Whereas "SS" gives the proper [s] sound. So no, カシオス can't be translated as "Casios". Folken de Fanel 23:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Tremy/Ptolemy/Tramy issue

So in japanese, his name is トレミー (Toremii). So in any case, we're sure it's not "Tramy".

Now, it happens that トレミー (Toremii) is the exact transcription of "Ptolemy" in japanese (see here : [3]).

The transcription "Tremy" appeared in the international versions of the manga and series. It is a perfectly accurate translation ("Toremii" still corresponds to "Tremy"), and as far as the translators knew back then, it seemed likely to be the actual name given by Kurumada, and they probably didn't thought of Ptolemy (if they didn't know how "Ptolemy" was translated in japanese, there was no way for them to guess just by looking at the katakana : the P is missing).

However, in manga volume 19, when Shaina is looking at the tombs of the resurrected Silver Saints, we can clearly see "Ptolemy Silver Sagitta" : [4]

So we can see the name was indeed intended to be Ptolemy. Tremy can be noted as divergence from the various international versions (and it's probably how he was called in the US translations). Folken de Fanel 22:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see, thanks for that tombstone referance, also the encyclopedia did published as Tramy too (since it's officially published, it should be added too), so I would suggest we put it as "Ptolemy or Tramy (Tremy as the translation of トレミー)", what do you think?Yajaec 22:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Tramy" is not an accurate translation. Please note the difference between "official" and "accurate". The japanese don't know the proper romanisation of names.Folken de Fanel 23:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I do see your point regarding the accurate and official. But since we are suppose to provide as much info as possible also with source that we can cite from, I think it's better that "Tramy" is also included since it was officially published and they did not made known correction of republishing the book. The name of Ptolemy will definately be on it but so should Tramy whether the Japanese people translated it right or wrong, they did published it and as many reader would know that character as Tramy and some Ptolemy (if they read and even catch the name on the tombstone of that Hades part of the manga). I think it's the right thing to do, believe me, I understand your passion for correction of the translation, we can make note on the name regarding the multiple publications.Yajaec 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I rest my case, inaccurate translations won't be used. The japanese don't know how to properly romanise katakana names, we have a full list of stupid translations of already existing occidental names, so no we won't use this. If the names are occidental, they'll remain in their occidental form. Otherwise, remember "Santol" Babel and "Rizard" Misty. Folken de Fanel 23:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, it was officially published AND they did not made any re-publishing to indicate that there were official errors on the names, to repect that, we should include what was published as many reader will know the character as that name. I'm not saying to delete or replace what you said about "correct" names, I'm only saying to include on it with notes regarding the different publications. It will help educate people too as I'm sure there are people out there that did not catch the tombstone name in manga. What you said about "Rizard" Misty etc... I did not find that on an official published source so far therefore that's a different issue. I hope you can respect that, in regard to the official publication. As many reader that come across the "new" name, they might think we(the wiki editors) made a name mistake(if they did not know about the Ptolemy) this would be a chance to let people know about the name difference from manga and the encyclopedia.Yajaec 23:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see no publication with these names written in. As I said, I have the Taizen, and it's all in japanese, no romaji.

No. Not many readers will no the characters by that names, because they are obscur mistranlation from an unidentified asian source (I'm not even saying "japanese" because we're not sure of anything), and here, we're on the english wikipedia, with most people knowing only the american translations.

Above all, these translations are incorrect. It won't "educate" people since it's all wrong (and it will certainly not help people to correctly transcribe katakana).

"Rizard" Misty is in the "Shueisha Visual Remix" based on the first Hades OVA.Folken de Fanel 23:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Kanji/Furigana issue

This is useless. Just add "(wrote with the kanji of XXX)" and live happy.Sirtao 11:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

In short (as as information is already available in the furigana article), the furigana are small characters (either hiragana or katakana), written besides (or above, or under) the kanji : their aim is to indicate the right pronunciation of a kanji (mainly used for helping young kids at school, and foreigners), as each kanji can have several readings (for more details, see here : the different kanji readings).

But, in Saint Seiya (as well as in many fictional works: other manga, video games, anime, etc), furigana are also used to provide a specific pronunciation (that is, in most cases, a foreign expression) to certain kanji.

In the case discussed, we have 氷戦士 (literally meaning "Ice warriors"). However, Kurumada has provided furigana for this expression, which turn out to be "Blue Warriors" (ブルーウオリアーズ).

Thus "Blue Warriors" has become the definite pronunciation of the expression, and while it might have a slightly different meaning in kanji, it won't appear and won't be taken into account, as the furigana rules over any other pronunciation. A native japanese, while reading his Saint seiya manga, will always read "Blue warriors" and not "Ice warriors". The pronunciation is forced.

And if this part of the manga had been adapted into anime, then we would have only heard "Blue Warriors".

That exactly the same for the word "saint". The Kanji used are "聖闘士" ("Seitôshi" literaly meaning "holy/sacred fighter") however Kurumada imposed the furigana セイント　(seinto, Saint), thus the word will always remain Saint, whatever kanji are used to make the expression. And the japanese voice actors of the anime have never said anything else than "Saint". Folken de Fanel 21:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC) 　

That's your own POV saying that when the pronounciation is Blue then kanji won't be taken into account.

No. That's japanese spelling fact. If you don't have basic japanese language knowledge, then please don't intervene here. Furigana indicates the definite pronunciation (if there is furigana, it's pronunced this way and not another. Why would there be any difference for manga ? Above all when there is no difference). Have you heard once "Seitoshi" being pronunced in the anime ? No, it was always Saint.Folken de Fanel

You kept talking about pronunciation of what should be but you kept omiting of what kanji is writen, you provide one part you have to provide both, if you don't understand kanji/furigana relation completely, don't kept changing it to your own limited understanding, kanji is there as hard fact, don't try to hide it.Yajaec 23:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You keep omiting the furigana rules over any other pronunciation. Furigana are specifically used to provide the correct pronunciation for kanji, because there are several ways of pronuncing kanji. When there are furigana, we know the pronunciation can't be anything else.

It doesn't not said anything about the pronunciation of furigana over writes any kanji wording, that's your own POV. I stated both while you kept deleting one.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No. That's japanese spelling fact. The furigana rule over any other pronunciation. Furigana indicates the definite pronunciation (if there is furigana, it's pronunced this way and not another. Why would there be any difference for manga ? Above all when there is no difference). Have you heard once "Seitoshi" being pronunced in the anime ? No, it was always Saint. Folken de Fanel

Why wouldn't it be the same in the manga world ? Just because you've decided it, just because you thought "Ice warriors" was cooler than "Blue..." ? You just can't ignore japanese pronunciation and spelling rules as you see fit, just to reflect your own personnal preference. You prentend you know your kanji OK, but that's not a reason to show off with it, putting kanji everywhere while you're ignoring other spelling rules.

Why would it be the same? Just because you think how the pronunciation overwrites the kanji?

Because it's a japanese spelling rule ? Because it's like that and you can't say anything against it ? Because that's fact ? Because furigana rule over any other pronunciation ? Folken de Fanel

I never said anything about ice warrior was cooler than blue. I neutrally stated both while you kept deleting one of them.

That's your POV. You have put forward the kanji, thus creating a serious spelling error, and you have written the kanji, which is your own POV preference for kanji everywhere even when it is not needed.

You can't ignore part of the whole fact just because of what you believe in.

But I'm not ignoring anything, it's you who are adding useless things and who aren't even using it correctly. Folken de Fanel

I'm not pretending at all, go find any kanji tranlation of the word, that is what it mean. Don't even accuse me of showing off while you try to enforce your POV on the article.

That's what you're doing. While I'm merely trying to correct spelling mistakes. Folken de Fanel

Spelling rules? You have not even ever cited from an official source of how the author translates the names

So for you, Kurumada and the manga itself aren't official sources ? Kurumada provided furigana, so if you have learned what are furigana since we started this discussion, then you understand what you're saying is just ridiculous. Folken de Fanel

instead you kept saying how things should be

I remind you your own words : "then it should both be stated as the way I did. " Folken de Fanel

even in your POV of how Japanese can't translate correctly while enforcing what you think in your POV is the absolute correct way to translate words.

I'm merely stating facts. If you don't like these, well, go and change the world. Folken de Fanel

I stated both neutrally just as it was printed, I did not favor ice warriors more so than the blue warriors, I stated BOTH as BOTH WERE PRINTED.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That's your POV, but the rule is that furigana rules over everything else and the kanji do not even have to be here. Folken de Fanel

Also, assuming that I "don't understand kanji/furigana relation", while it was I who explained it here and to you, and while I obviously know it, it totally unfair from you. You're even being rude, now.

...And "limited understanding" ? Wow ! That is real insult and scorn, mere violence and revenge on me just because I "dared" to contradict you...Folken de Fanel

Don't even try to spin this out of proportions.

Now you're threatening me, don't you ? I'll use everything you'll give me. If you insult me and show scorn, then I will take it into account. If you didn't want it to happen, then you shouldn't have said these violent things to me. Folken de Fanel

You stated furigana info and yet you shows no fact that kanji meaning is to be ignored.

No fact ? What does this mean ?

You mean it's not a fact that even the japanese are always pronuncing "Saint" instead of Seitôshi ? Ok, in this case it's easy to argue with you, everything your opponent will say will be automatically ignored, you'll pretend he hasn't said anything and you'll continue as if nothing happened. Yes, that is easy...Folken de Fanel

Are you kidding me with this "revange" accusation?

There's no accusation. There are fact. i see you're insulting me and saying scornful things just because I'm not thinking like you. Folken de Fanel

Here you are clearly omiting part of what was printed, why do you keep deleting that part? Author clearly stated both in the printing.

No, the author clearly stated furigana which have to remain, not kanji which is of no use.Folken de Fanel

Japanese also have kanji word for Blue, if it was intended to be "blue" in meaning wise, then they will use the actual kanji word for blue.

No. You don't understand. If Kurumada wanted "aoi" he would have written "aoi". H wanted "Blue".

If he didn't intended it to be "blue", he would have never written it in furigana, since furigana rule over any other pronunciation.Folken de Fanel

I didn't change the pronuciations, I stated clearly, kanji is ice warriors and fruigana pronounciation is blue warriors

You're putting "Ice warrior" first. That's a serious spelling error since the correct and definite word IS "Blue...", with the furigana. And I'm not even talking about your POV attitude of showing off by writing kanji everywhere when it pleases you, while you're completely ignoring other similar cases...Folken de Fanel

Please cite an official translating source that the definite word for kanji word 氷 is "Blue...".

Let's see...Masami Kurumada has stated in manga volume 13 that it was "Blue warriors" because he's used furigana. But, well, since according to you, neither Kurumada nor the manga are official, my argument is void, isn't it ? Folken de Fanel

You previously said it was blue, author stated both in kanji and furigana, don't try to pull author in to your POV.Yajaec 16:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

But it is "blue", because it's in the furigana, and the furigana decide the pronunciation, not your POV. Folken de Fanel 19:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Not my POV, it clearly printed BOTH, furigana is part of the name and kanji is also part of the name. By deleting part of it, that becomes YOUR POV to do so when it clearly shows both. You even presented the use of furigana yourself, as stated it may be added and used for pronounciation (which I clearly stated in addition) but there's no excuse deleting the kanji which is also the name, you need to stop deleting out part of the fact, furigana goes with the kanji for pronunciation only, you have no justified case here.Yajaec 23:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's your POV because the furigana determine the correct and definite pronunciation of the name. It's your POv that is forcing you to put forward the kanji while it's of no use here as ne name intended by Kurumada is "Blue warrior". I repeat again, do we say "Seitôshi" or "tenba seiza" ? Do the japanese voice actors say that ? No, they say Saint and Pegasus, and no one in his right mind would think of writing the kanji (exept to show off) as they are not even used.

The kanji are not the name. The furigana are the name. they have priority. There no deletion of anything, only the correct name stated. The furigana don't go for pronunciation only, they define what is the word intended. As for saint and pegasus. Folken de Fanel

I standed only neutral of what was printed, it has got nothing to do with POV, don't even try to spin that. I'm addressing one case at a time while you kept fighting them with your POV of how things should be.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's just POV, you want the kanji before while it is wrong. The kanji are not meant to be used. The real pronunciation and spelling decided by Kurumada was "Blue warrior", that's all. Folken de Fanel

why you kept trying to hide the kanji word that was printed

I'm not hiding anything, Kurumada defined what the word was, so we're doing it in his own way. He chose a furigana spelling, we can't contradict him. We don't have to care about the kanji because the furigana decide everything. That's the same for "Saint". Go on and blame the anime makers for having "hidden the kanji of Seitôshi".Folken de Fanel

There's no where it says that furigana decided everything, that's your POV. I stated both and even with note to explain, clear as day.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, it's a japanese writing rule. That's your POV that it would be false.

3 times I have asked, 3 times you've ignored : Saint instead of Seitôshi, with even the japanese voice actors always pronuncing Saint. Does it ring a bell ? Is it also my POV ? Say it : is it also my POV that "Saint" is "saint" and not Seitôshi ?

Oh sorry, I'd forgotten that you never listen to anyone but yourself. Folken de Fanel

if Kurumada put that kanji in, you have no right to change it out to only partial of what was stated regardless meaning/pronunciation.

I'm not changing anything since I'm doing everything according to Kurumada. The furigana show the word is intended to be "Blue Warrior" and nothing else, that's all. If that was not the case, Kurumada wouldn't have written furigana, that's all. We don't have to take the kanji into account because the pronunciation is not the same, and anyway we don't need you to show off all the time with your "kanji knowledge", making each of your edits more elitist than the other. Folken de Fanel

You are omiting the whole word, you only put in the furigana part of what you said the english translation is. And it IS for pronunciation, even though it's not the same, you still have to state both. Stop spin this by saying "your kanji knowledge", I'm not the only one that have kanji knowledge, just because you don't have the same knowledge, does not give you the right to ignore the kanji that author put in it.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the whole word is the furigana. The furigana is a pronunciation guide, it determines what is the pronunciation. The kanji are thus ignored and of no use.

"just because you don't have the same knowledge" : here, you're boasting, showing off, talking scornfully to me. You've just proved my point. Folken de Fanel

Furigana only help in "PRONUNCING" and I have included that, but you kept trying to delete and hide the kanji meaning and that's wrong.Yajaec 23:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Furigana determines the correct pronunciation. Your edits don't reflect the correct pronunciation (thus spelling error), but only your own taste of displaying kanji everywhere even where it is not suited and of no need. I've never deleted the kanji meaning, it is just that we don't have to take it into account, only the furigana. And you're hiding the real intended meaning of the word, and this is really wrong. Folken de Fanel

That's your POV, it clearly stated both, "kanji is ice warriors, furigana shows pronunciation as blue warriors". What part of that is not clear?!!Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

That is your POV. The correct spelling and pronunciation is "Blue...".Folken de Fanel

The furigana said nothing about "correct spelling" only pronunciations which I stated, "correct spelling" is your POV.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The furigana says everything about "correct spelling" (as in "Seitôshi"/Saint), "only pronunciation" is your POV. Folken de Fanel

In this case, both kanji and furigana were printed next to each other, then it should both be stated as the way I did.

No, you're wrong. First it is not "you" who decides, but Kurumada. And Kurumada has decided to write "Blue warriors" in furigana, thus it won't be anything else.Folken de Fanel

I stated blue warriors, it is NOT you who decided to exclude what Mr. Kurumada wrote in kanji - ice warriors.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not you who decided to exclude what Mr. Kurumada wrote in furigana. Kurumada has decided a spelling and a pronunciation, thus it will remain as Kurumada wanted. If you want to blame Kurumada, go on. Folken de Fanel

He wrote the kanji and used the furigana as an AID for pronunciation, not official spelling. Don't even drag the author into your own POV justification.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

He wrote the kanji and used the furigana as the official, definite and correct spelling and pronunciation of the word. And stop giving me orders. Folken de Fanel

Kanji means Ice Warriors and Furigana pronounce as Blue warriors. You by erasing the 氷戦士 part means your are hiding that partial of the fact.

I'm not "hiding" anything (please don't assume bad faith or attack me personally - it won't help you). I'm merely stating the truth. The word is intended to be Blue Warriors.Folken de Fanel

I'm stating the FULL truth, what you are doing, deleting partial fact "IS" clearly hiding it, you've done it 3 times already, you only stated partial truth, the word is intended to PRONUNCED as blue warriors but that does not change the fact that the kanji word IS ice warriors.Yajaec 23:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you're only constructing your own personal truth. There are kanji, but there are furigana that are determining the right pronunciation and spelling of the word. By ignoring it, you're deleting partial fact.

You're hiding the fact that "ice warrior" can't be taken into account. Folken de Fanel

I hide nothing, I stated both with notes, clear as day.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You're hidin the fact that the true spelling and pronunciation is blue. Nothing is clear, you've just POVed the article once again. Folken de Fanel

I did no such thing, it's stated in the note. YOU have POVed the article by deleting partial fact of the whole.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You did such thing, it is not stated in the note.YOU have POVed the article by deleting partial fact of the whole. Folken de Fanel

Both were printed, therefore both will be stated clearly as meaning and pronounciation.Yajaec 22:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Folken de Fanel 22:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't get to determain what author mean and didn't mean

Of course, he did it himself with a japanese spelling rule you're completely ignoring. Folken de Fanel

where is your official source of the spelling rule he used? The same one he used to put in the kanji "ice" and the furigana "blue" ?!!!Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

My source ? Well, I have no source, since you don't concider the manga as a source. then what is YOUR source ? Folken de Fanel

I used manga as source too besides the kanji knowledge, the kanji word of "ice" for part of Hygoa's name and all the section where the author wrote about Hygoa's training in "icy" area those same kanji were used. So would you say Hyoga's name as "Blue River"?!!!! YOU have no source.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You don't use the manga. I say the name of the Blue Warriors is Blue Warriors, as Kurumada stated. What is YOUR source ? except saying nonsense and using out-of-context words (as far as I know, Hyoga have no furigana in it, but maybe you're getting confused with you're own fanfiction you're trying to impose in the place of Kurumada's work). Folken de Fanel

unless he officially made a statement to clearify, otherwise, we state the OBVIOUS and none of your POV on what author meant and don't meant to. You are breaking the no POV rule here.Yajaec 23:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

But stating the obvious IS stating the furigana, because it is the intended pronunciation which rules over all others, that's fact. You're breaking the NPOV rule here, by favoring your "kanji everywhere" way of showing off, while we have an actual spelling for this word. Folken de Fanel 23:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I have stated the obvious, furigana said blue, kanji said ice, I favor both as both were stated with note. Don't even accuse me of favoring kanji everywhere, people can also say that you only translated all those katakana to the way that your POV think is most correct. Then again, I don't know what people thinks, the fact is that you deleted the kanji that goes together with the furigana, furigana without the kanji does not stand.Yajaec 00:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

You have stated misinformation. You're favoring kanji, there is no translation note. Don't prevent me of saying anything, you have no right for that. The kanji don't go together with the furigina. The furigana itself decides of the spelling and pronunciation. Folken de Fanel 01:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Stop it with you unjustified accusations

1) You don't have any right to give me orders 2) I'm not accusing, only stating the truth. It's you who are accusing me everywhere.Folken de Fanel

That's not an order, it's uncalled for to make accusations. Don't even try to start finger pointing. Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's an order, I'm not making accusations but stating fatc. Don't even try to give me orders or to say what I have to do. Folken de Fanel

I stated both kanji AND furigana

No because 1) the kanji don't have to be stated 2) you put the kanji forward, it's a big mistake and a POV.Folken de Fanel

Where did you cited that kanji don't have to be stated?!! The furigana page stated clearly that it's used to aid kanji, AID, not to determine what the kanji is. You deleting that info is the big mistake and POV.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The kanji don't have to be stated because it is not stated and it doesn't have to be, because it's not the correct word. You adding that "info" is the big mistake and POV.Folken de Fanel

you have no right in accusing me favoring kanji.

Unless you haven't noticed yet we have free speech, here. And I'm not accusing you, I'm merely stating what you're doing.Folken de Fanel

Favoring? Free speech allows you to break the rule of personal attack?!!! That's nice, bending rule according to your well.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, favoring. Free speech allows me to argue against you. However, it doesn't give you the right to personal-attack me. And you're even making serious allegations here.Folken de Fanel

This is Japanese animation, kanji is huge part of the Japanese languge, you can't expect to leave out part of the languge just because you don't fully understand them as other do.

Again, your showing off, but i have yet to see any efficiency or any accuracy, or even usefullness, in your "kanji edits".

Showing off?!! I only stated the obvious as what was printed, you also know this particular kanji word, showing off is not even close. And it's about both kanji and furigana relation here, don't try to side track.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No you're only stating your POV and hiding what was printed. It's only about furigana and you know it. Because furigana rules over anything else. Don't even try to give me orders. Folken de Fanel

You might have learned your kanji OK, but anyway there are points about japanese language that you don't understand, namely the furigana. They determine the correct spelling of the words.

What are you doing?!! Comparing Japanese knowledge?!!?! I have cited what was stated on the furigana page, and it shows that you are mistaken by only stating the furigana itself without notation of it's for pronunciation only, you made the mistake, don't try to blame me for your mistake by comparing knowledge of Japanese here.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

And you, what are you doing ? You have not cited anything, only lied and transformed and altered, as usual.I'm not mistaken because I'm right and you know it: the furigana determine the correct spelling and pronunciation, as in Saint and Pegasus. Stop giving me orders. Folken de Fanel

I assure you I fully understand how japanese language works, and I also understand how furigana are used and what their purpose is. But obviously you don't. You don't even know there are many, many, many words which are in furigana in Saint Seiya, words for which you don't seem to make such fuss as for "Blue warriors". Because you don't know. You make all this fuss about Ice/blue because you're just trying to impress people with the kanji on minor details, however you don't even suspect it's the same case for many other words. And that's the irony : you're not trying to show off on these words, you're not trying to invent your own rules, you just apply the correct rule of english pronunciation because you do not know enough to try showing off on these words. It won't shock you to use "Saint" or "Pegasus" because not even the japanese cared about the kanji, everywhere in the anime we heard "saint" and not "seitôshi" or "Pegasus" and not "tenba seiza". Folken de Fanel

I already pointed out how you have mistakened, I don't need to know how much you know about Japanese, when you have been showned with cited source that you are mistaken, why do you keep going off track and arguing about who knows more?!?!!Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I've already pointed out how I'm absolutely right and you totally wrong. I have been shown cited source which proved my point and contradicted you. You've lost. Why do you keep going off track and arguing about who knows more ? It's over. Folken de Fanel

I wrote clearly of both as note.

1) there is not note to make 2) you've favored the kanji.Folken de Fanel

By stating both, there's no favoritism.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You're not stating both, you're violating the NPOV rule but putting useless things and by favoring wrong spellings.Folken de Fanel

And I didn't prevent you from saying anything, which you been posting away here, however you have no right in creating your own definition as to only put on the pronuncation and leave out the name in kanji

I'm not creating anything. It would be to great an honor to say that I've created the japanese language and Saint Seiya. because yes, I'm merely stating a perfectly existing writing rule o the jp language which is used many times in the anime. "Saint" and "Pegasus", does it rings a bell ?

Even you agree on this rule, even you are applying it. Folken de Fanel

You only stated partial and not as whole in this case, stop going off track.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I've stated whole, and you keep ignoring embarassing things for you. Stop giving me orders. Folken de Fanel

furigana does not exist by itself, it is used as AID in pronunciation stated in furigana section.

Thus it gives the correct and definite pronunciation, so there is no discussion about the word. The furigana determine everything.Folken de Fanel

It did not said anything about deciding the spelling.

Yes it did. Folken de Fanel

Take a good look at the JR-Namba station picture on the furigana page. For the words JR-NAMBA hey put じえいあ-るなんば (according to pronunciation it would be JieiA-ruNaNBa) furigana is used only to help with the pronunciation only, you certainly would not post Jieiaru Nanba on the article now instead of JR Namba, "Jieiaru" does not equal to the meaning of "JR".

Are you kidding me ? Or you just have some problems ? Jeiaru IS JR. J ("jay" -> jiei), R ("ar" -> "aru").

same thing with the pronuncation of the "ブルー" does not equal to the meaning of 氷.

Yes it does, because kurumada have chosen it as the official word and pronunciation. Folken de Fanel

You are seriously mixing the "meaning" and "pronunciation" together and self declaring that the pronunciation IS the meaning which furigana page did not stated. There's no meaning to the word "Jieiaru" it is furigana, used as a pronunciation AID, PRONUNCIATION AID!!! And just who are you to declare that author said that the pronuncation of "ブルー" equal to the meaning of 氷. If you don't know kanji, don't make up your own meaning. Author put the furigana there for PRONUNCIATION ONLY and that's what furigana is for, you even cite from the furigana page yourself, the page said nothing about furigana decides the meaning!!! Don't put words into the author's mouth.Yajaec 19:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

YOU are seriously mixing the "meaning" and "pronunciation" together . And I'm not declaring anything, I'm only stating a spelling rule which every japanese speaking people respect. Have you ever heard seitôshi or tenba seiza in the anime ? never. If there are furigana, the japanese will never pronunce it otherwise.

""Jieiaru" has the meaning of JR. But know, if you say "Saint" or "Pegasus" or "Blue warrior" have no meaning, then you really have cracked up.

I am a reader of the aforesaid manga. Which you obviously aren't. It's not me but Kurumada who wrote the manga, and he himself officially stated, by using the furigana, that the correct and definite spelling and pronunciation was "blue warrior", as he did for "Saint" or "Pegasus".

The author didn't wrote the furigana for pronunciation only but for writing. The furigana are used to determine the right spelling and pronunciation of a word.

The furigana article says exactly the same as me.

Don't give orders to me. I'm only fulfulling the author's demands. Since Kurumada himself dared to contradict you, you have your new target, so now, go and harass him instead of me. Folken de Fanel

There you have it, and I have clearly stated both meaning and pronunciation on the note, stop deleting it, you are controdicting yourself.Yajaec 23:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

First sto saying nonsense, then stop imposing an inaccurate POV in the article, then keep cool and get a grip, you can be contradicted you're not the utlimate genius. You have to accept to be wrong. It won't serve you to be stubborn even when you're totally wrong. Folken de Fanel 00:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not said anything about being genius, I pointed out your mistake and how your are mistaken in this case and that's is that.Yajaec 00:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes you did, basically your dream is to disparage me, but you've realised it will never work. I'm absolutely right. I've proved it and you have even agreed. Folken de Fanel 00:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL, my dream is to disparage you?, what are we doing? having some kind of wiki user melee?!!! All I did was pointing out your mistakes, and you take that as me trying to "disparage" you?!! Dude, you have some serious control issues whenever people point out your mistakes and just what is it that I've agreed on? I stated as what the furigana page stated, only that you kept removing the kanji which is the main part, without it, the furigana does not stand by itself. You got some serious paranoia, "disparage" you?!! LOL.Yajaec 19:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never made any mistake. You made mistakes. And you have lied. And you've insulted me and made false accusations.

YOU have some serious control issues whenever people point out your mistakes. You doin't understand what is furigana, and then you put the blame of your own ignorance on me ! What a coward you are !

You've agreed on everything. So there's no more debate. You have agreed that the furigana Pegasus is official and can't be replaced by Tenba seiza, thus youve proved my point.

The kanji is not the main part. The main parts (which decides seplling and pronunciation) is the furigana.

Now you're insulting me: "paranoia". See, when you don't have anything to say any longer, you start being rude, as usual. Folken de Fanel 20:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

First of all, the Japanese Encyclopedia under Seiya section printed "Pegasus" in romanji but not as furigana. "Tenba Seiza" was mentioned in the article but never as furigana either so this example does not apply here.

No you're wrong. Pegasus is the furigana for tenba seiza. This example does apply here.Folken de Fanel

"Pegasus" in romanji was published, that's what I agreed to, but not as your example to the furigana issue.

However, it was. Folken de Fanel

Now now, claim down dude, don't get all heated up and throwing words like "coward" here, I'm facing you, confronting you already.

You're the only one heating up, here.Folken de Fanel

I have presented and even cited from the furigana page that, and I quote "Furigana (ふりがな, Furigana?) are a Japanese reading aid. They consist of smaller kana printed next to a kanji or other character to indicate its pronunciation." Which shows clearly what it's for.

For determining the correct pronunciation and spelling of the word.

So "ignorance" does not apply here either.

Then I wonder why you've called me an ignorant in the first place, if it doesn't apply here. Folken de Fanel

"Tenba Seiza" was also in kanji in the Japanese encyclopedia as 天馬星座 ( the constellation of pegasus or flying horse). However Pegasus in romanji (ペガサス)and not in furigana was officially published, so we use that is officially published.

So if you just think for 1 second (yes, I know it might be difficult for you), the furigana for "tenba seiza" have been officially stated as the accurate and definite spelling of the word. And I insist, "Pegasus" is furigana. Whether you don't know, or you don't want to know, is not my problem.Folken de Fanel

Furigana page stated clearly it's for aid in pronunciation to help those that does not know the kanji.

You've just stated clearly furigana defines the definite spelling of the word. Folken de Fanel

The page stated clearly, you can't disput that, so be reasonable now. =) Yajaec 21:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You make me laugh !Folken de Fanel 00:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aroon or Alone?

As far as I know, Aroon is a Sanskrit word meaning "dawn's early light" or the change from night to day. Also, I don't know any language(other Englush, of couyrse) where double O are prononunced U. But I can be wrong.
So I ask you, my fellows: what version to use?Sirtao 02:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Technically, アローン (Arōn) is the exact transcription in katakana of the english word "Alone". 　

For example, the japanese translation of the movie title "Home Alone" is ホーム・アローン (Ōmu Arōn = Home Alone).

As for "Aroon", never heard before, and only when I searched on Google I've found that it's nowaday used as an indicator in the Stock Exchange.

I've yet to find the original spelling of the name, and then how the japanese spell it.

As far as I know, a search on Google with "アローン + Aroon" doesn't give any result.

So, where did you find that the character "アローン" in Saint Seiya would be spelled "Aroon" ? Besides, the spelling Alone corresponds perfectly to the characters, since at first, he is literally alone (moreover, he is an orphan). But I really can't see what the sanskrit word "Aroon", with it's original meaning, would have to do here.Folken de Fanel 10:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Update: I've searched on the net, and the "Aroon" indicator translates as アルーン or アールン (Arūn ou Ārun) in japanese [5]. So no, it doesn't correspond to the Saint Seiya character. Folken de Fanel 10:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Episode G details

I've noticed that a few characters have information that only appear in Episode G in their profile. Notably Aphrodite with a new attack. If we're doing this to them, should we also tell of what their character is in Episode G and elaborate on them? --Ohtori akio 02:00, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Character Catagories

Would any one disagree that I separates the saints from the Novels into it's own section? Because some of the reader might not know anything about the novel nor have access to them. And this is how I'm planning to do it.

We'll have the whole section on the character that's shown on both manga and anime. bronze, silver, gold, etc.

We'll then have a small section of the characters that's only shown on either manga or the anime.

Then we'll have the character in the movies section, Atlas, Abel, Eris and etc.

And we'll have the novel section of characters, bronze, silver, and etc.

If anyone have any helpful suggestions that would help organize this let me know, thanks.Yajaec 18:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Actually I suggest separating different sections into different articles, like what they did for characters in Naruto. This article is way too long. Ric 23:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, we can have this article just be a list of characters sorted by sections. The main characters will have links to their own articles, and the different section headings will have links to detailed descriptions of characters of that section. Ric 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I do like how they sort the character on Naruto but not apply it exactly the same way to Saint Seiya Characters. I noticed sometime people just want to know some of the Character's names/age/techniques (that is why they published Saint Seiya Character Encyclopedia I believe) so I think maybe we should only keep the statistic info and cut out the mini intro on this page and from here they each link to individual character site. I like what you said about having this as a list of characters sorted by sections, as sections that I proposed earlier separating the novel characters from the widely known manga and anime characters (since there are still a lot of old fans that knows nothing about the novels). But for now, since we do not have a complete characters collections, we should leave it as is so that we won't loose some of the info with all the cutting and pasting and moving article around. We can later, take these mini intro and move them into each of their own charater pages (I find these temp mini intro useful to help as starting point in making character pages), once all or almost all of the characters have their own pages, we can then start clean out all the mini intro on this page and leave only the statistic info. How about that?Yajaec 22:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds fine. On another topic, I don't think it is necessary to keep the Notable antagonists section. These people can be inserted into their respecitive sections where they appear. -Ric 06:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree too, it's almost like double mini intro. Your inputs are awesome, thanksYajaec 21:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we should reduce the character presentation for those who already have their own article (the main Bronze + Gold).

Also, perhaps we should find something to make this article more "visual" and appealing to the eye. Maybe by using tables, I don't know yet. Folken de Fanel 23:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Convention on attack names and translation

I think we should type only the official translations of the attacks in english language. I think that adding self made translations (moreover if they are literal, kanji by kanji) could be considered as breaking the OR rule. Folken de Fanel 23:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as the Technique/Attack names, as most of them have an actually offical english translations, some don't nor clearly translated. I think this falls into a grey area and much much more cited research is needed. Sometime even the Japanese to English translations aren't always reliable (which might spark more "discussions" with other editors). I think we need to pool everyone's idea on how to go about doing this as some character have sort of "english name" attack like Thunder Claw, etc. and other with Japanese or even other languge attack names. On some level, I think the original kanji name of attack would be nice to be including (sparingly) on the characters' page (I've seen few other editors done so too). As far as the individual break down on the kanji word translation, that would be on the edge of the OR rule. I believe most of other editors that included the kanji word by word translation had a good intension in informing the origin name and meaning of the attack, however, if anyone have problem with the translation or if the translation is questionable, then we should all discuss this and maybe set some guide line as to if we are to do translations for some of the kanji attack (maybe use the translation aired in USA? though some hardcore fan might not agree on some of the translation but it is USA official though). Or we'll just leave the kanji attack name as is. Also, if the kanji and all that translation would be too messy to be included, perhaps we can create a new section of Saint Seiya, names and attacks translations section page. I would like to hear some ideas from all editors.Yajaec 23:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

First, I agree that kanji by kanji translations were made in good faith, however we all know that literal translation isn't really benefic to the readers, as it often doesn't have much sense in the translated language. Besides, without the insight of a professional translator (or at least a person fluently speaking japanese) we might have serious mistranlation issues.

Until we settle on a guideline, I think the attacks should temporarily be left in romaji.

The attacks that originally use english words have to stay as they are (even if it's engrish most of the time).

The real problem is for purely japanese names.

We should check what were the translations in various language and make combinations of what we've found. Unless we can have insight from japanese-speaking people, of course.

We might also create an article entirely dedicated to the etymology in Saint Seiya, as it is an important aspect of the work.Folken de Fanel 23:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of the attacks are already in English, so there's not doubt on that. For the ones not in English, I think that a word by word translation should be included. But I don't think the names used in the US dubs should be included. (There are even two versions in US, the censored DiC version that was shown on TV, and the uncut ADV DVDs.... AND they use different translations for the attack names) Ric 00:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Character Name Links

As we are all still in the process of creating individual character page for the rest of the characters. I think we should reserved the "direct click" on the name to the character page rather than the page of the mythology character. If there's a mythology character related to the Saint Seiya character then add additional note at the bottom of it with note to the mythology link.

So for example:

---

Hypnos: God of sleep...

Technique: .........

Hypnos was part of Hades'.........

Also see Hypnos in Greek mythology

           or

Moses: (Saint of Whale)

Technique: .........

Named after Moses in bible.

          and not

Moses: (Saint of Whale)

Technique: .........

Named after Moses in bible.

---

I think this would be better as the focus is on Saint Seiya characters and not Greek mythology characters.Yajaec 00:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Ric 00:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Power level of the Gold Saints

Would stating how powerful a Gold Saint be violating NPOV? (because usually any comment relating to this becomes deleted) Although generally the Gold Saints were commented to be on approximately the same level, it is quite obvious that some (Virgo Shaka, Gemini Saga, Libra Dohko, Aries Shion) would be on a different level of strength to the others.

Because there is no "power level" in Saint Seiya. We're not dealing about Dragon Ball Z, here. The point in Saint Seiya is not "who is the strongest" but "who has the more just cause". There's no real notion of physical, technical, concrete, measurable "power" as there was in DBZ.

Saint Seiya is much more subtle, and the "power" is almost always "faith" or "love" than "brute force".

Moreover, in the manga, it's actually impossible to determine who is the strongest. Every confrontation showed they were equal to each other.

Aiolia is equal to Shaka (manga volume 7, they started a "One Thousand War", a fight that will last 1000 days and 1000 nights until one of the 2 is exhausted), and Mu, Aiolia, Milo were equal to Saga, Shura, Camus (manga volume 20 or 21, during the double Athena Exclamation) and Dohko and Shion were equal (another "One Thousand War" in manga volume 19 or 20). Thus 7 (or 9, if you take into account the personal fight between Dohko and Shion) of the Gold Saints who fought with each other were shown to be perfectly equal.

Dohko and Shion were not confronted to the other Gold Saints, Aiolos was dead before the beginning of the story, Aldebaran never confronted another Gold Saint, and Aphrodite and Deathmask were defeated by Mu as traitors (they were shown to be evil so the couldn't have won).

So you see, it's perfectly impossible to say who is the strongest, because it has never been the aim of the author to make such listing, and he has never done so in the manga. Every attempt at establishing an order of power will then be original research, because it would only depend on the personal preferences of the contributor, and such things are forbidden here. Folken de Fanel 11:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I see your point (though I don't agree with some of the examples you listed, e.g. Athena's Exclaimation is said to have "Infinite Power" as strong as the Big Bang, so it's not really Mu/Aiolia/Milo = Saga/Shura/Camus, it's more like infinite power = infinite power), although I still consider certain Gold Saints to be more powerful, there is no "concrete" proof I could say.

Here's another question: what about mentioning certain enemy characters that are "at Gold Saint level?" There are several characters (e.g. Siegfried, Sorrento, the 3 Judges) who have fought a Gold Saint, stated (or implied) to be as powerful as a Gold Saint at one time.

The Athena Exclamation is the combined strength of 3 Gold Saints, not an "Infinite power". It's just the sum of 3 Gold Saints' Cosmo. You can see in the manga that both sides are all struggling to get the upper hand, and even Mu notice that they all had the same strength. Also you'll notice that Shiryu could add his Cosmo to the double A-E and that he made the Gold saints win over the Specters.

As for others characters pretending to be "at Gold Saint level", unless there's solid basis (a fight with a Gold Saint) we shouldn't mention it, except to state it was just a boasting from the part of the character. As for Rhadamanthys, he only defeated the Gold Saints because they were in an area of Hades's castle that reduced their strength to 1/10.

Precisely in the case of the General Mariners, they pretended to be equal to the Gold Saints, but considering how they were easily defeated and how they Scales were easily destroyed, that was obviously wrong (even Seiya noticed it when he fought Baian)

However, among Poseidon's army, the Generals would be equivalent to the Gold Saint grade.Folken de Fanel 17:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the power level, even though Saint Seiya gave a base of guideline to the readers (Gold, Silver, Bronez, etc) to give readers an idea of the powers in comparesome to different armor/saint level but there are no official guideline or chart that was officially published to state that i.e. Saga is on number 4 of the strongest and Shaka is on number X of the list etc. We can't really add that who is strongest in as that is up to the readers to compares.

As Folken said, Shiryu added in his power to tip the scale of the 2 A.E. in favor of Mu's side. I think we have to keep in mind something that manga stated (I think it was by Mu or one of the character) That who ever can raise or explode their cosmo power to the highest or the fastest wins the battle. So in the battle we have seen, I think it's safe to say that the Bronze saints was able to raise their cosmo higher than Gold saint, at one point, to defeat the Gold saint. However, if no one is battling, or raising their cosmo powers then Gold saints is generally the most powerful ones (they possess the basic light speed and even Gold level strength every day higher than other level of saints), not to mention the Gold cloth they wear were much more powerful which add on to their power. As for which Gold saint is more powerful would be comparing apples to oranges within the fruit group. They each have their own unique talents, some uses strength, some uses mind etc...given different situation, some Gold Saint might gets the upper hand, but generally brings us back to the same statement, who ever can raise or explode their cosmo power to the highest or the fastest wins the battle. I think to be fair to other characters like Mariners etc, if they had raised their cosmo higher then it's possible they won't be defeated but the author writes the story this way so I guess it's up to the readers to decided as who is strongest(and there are also Popularity factors too).

As for the Asgard and Mariners comparing to Gold saint, we can state that the Mariners claimed in the story that they are like Gold Saints but that's only a quote from the story not officially said they are the same. And once again like what Folken said, within the Poseidon's army, the generals would be like the Gold saints level of their positions.Yajaec 18:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, most Mariner Generals are definitely weaker, because when a Bronze Saint reaches Gold Saint level cosmo, usually he would be able to defeat them. The only Mariner General to be at Gold Saint level would be Sorrento and Kanon, the former has defeated a Gold Saint (or was at least having an upper hand against one) and the later IS technically a Gold Saint. I mention Siegfried because he is the strongest Gold Warrior, and given that Mime/Syd/Bud were compared to a Gold Saint, Siegfried would possibly be at this level too (though of course, Asgard characters are non-canon). For the 3 Judges, however, it is hard to say whether they are Gold Saint level because other than Rhadamanthys vs Kanon (their first encounter suggested evenly matched, but the second encounter Kanon would have won) there are no other battles between them.

As yajaec said, there are various battles in StS depending on the speed of the characters to do an attack, and not merely their strength: the one who'll be the quickest to launch his attack will certainly be the winner, however, had his opponent struck first, he would have been defeated.

In the case of Sorrento, if he was able to defeat Aldebaran, it was because her first played his Dead End Symphony, which reduced Aldebaran's strength. Had he not played his song first, he certainly would have been killed by the full-power Great Horn of Aldebaran. He said it himself.

Mime possessed an attack as fast as one of Saga, and Syd/Bud defeated a Gold Saint by treachery. We can't say there are concrete elements here...Folken de Fanel 00:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but it was stated by Aldebaran/Bud that Syd would be equal to Aldebaran, a frontal attack would leave both of them defeated, hence Bud used a sneak attack (but of course, non-canon fact). Syd/Bud also could use a "light-speed fist," (if this is not concrete evidence, it is at least a very strong implication, given that it was used as a definition of Gold Saint level). As for Sorrento, his fighting style lies in weakening his opponent and not direct power, so it is not like he won because he is lucky (but again, it is probably not NPOV).

[edit] Casios and Esmerarda

I know the issues regarding translation, however, I edit them according to what was published in the Encyclopedia of Saint Seiya manga. If you (Folken) wish to keep the spelling as you edited, I won't object but the spelling I edited "is" what was written in the encyclopedia.Yajaec 00:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I confirm these are the spellings in the official Encyclopedia, but maybe we can include both the commonly used English name and the official Japanese name? Just a suggestion. Ric 00:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No these are not the spelling of the encyclopedia I know, and in any case they're not correct names so they won't be used. Folken de Fanel 23:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, even though the official (publish) names aren't so "pretty" but it is official, and I think we can add the "common english name" next to it as additional notes.(and also I think the spelling of Esmerarda isn't too far of stretch either since name like "Geraldo" have a similar spelling as "Gerardo"(which is someone I know personally) What do you(Folken) think?Yajaec 16:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I say the spanish don't say "esmerarda" but "esmeralda". Folken de Fanel 23:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I did a search on spanish name, it's also "Esmerelda", I'm not here to fight about it, puting Esmerarda is only as a respect(with cited source) to what was officially published, we can include both with additional notes about it, it would help educate people in the different name that was published.Yajaec 00:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If these translation do not respect the manga names, they are of no use. They aren't translations, they are mistranslation from the japanese who don't know how to correctly write in Romaji. These names first come out of nowhere (I still can't see what is your source for these) and second, they aren't meant to be official in anyway. The only official names are in katakana, the rest is all interpretations from non-english and non-romaji speaking japanese. They basically don't understand the romaji.

We have various instance were these romaji do not even correspond to the katakana. Please try to understand, these false names are of no use and they are absolutely not official.

They won't "educate" anyone, they'll just confuse the reader.

I repeat, the japanese don't know how to correctly romanize. Remember Rizard Misty and Santol Babel... Folken de Fanel 12:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, as I've said it before, I understand where you're coming from, but the main point of Saint Seiya articles on this wikipedia isn't about what the correct dictionary translations of katakana should be, it's about all the information connected to Saint Seiya and have reliable source in conncetion with Saint Seiya. Like you said, the absolute correct names would be the katakana but since this is the english site, we can't have just katakana so we put in english translations. Regardless how Japanese do or do not understand how to translate romaji this articles is not about them directly. Saint Seiya has been published all over the world, and here in USA is still relativily young. Besides the new english readers in USA, there are already other english/foreign readers that have already read Saint Seiya in other published version. I believe the key is to provide all info regardless publication versions since the point is not about telling the readers that the Japanese don't know how to translate romanji here. If Saint Seiya had started in USA first, I would completely agree with you that we will ignore all the later publication in other countries but that's not the case.

Uncorrect names romanisation isn't reliable "info". We're here to inform people, if we don't give them the right info it's all useless.

If the japanese doesn't know how to romanise, this problem concerns us directly. We're not going to use unaccurate translations. We have to be the most accurate possible. And using false names that were only used once and not intended to represent anything official, isn't being accurate.

The article isn't about the unability for the japanese to correctly transcribe in romaji, so let's not do anything that would bring the question. You said it yourself, it is not our problem how the japanese supposedly have momentarily translated some names. This doesn't concern the english Wikipedia. Leave the japanese problems to the japanese.

Here we're not japanese, we are mainly from the countries where all those names were taken, so for us, it's perfectly normal to use the names as they really are. Japanese occasional "translations" concern only the japanese.

By adding the other names and making notes regarding the publication differences it will not confuse readers, it will educate and inform them. Since large part of the readers have been following Saint Seiya for years before the english version came out. It will only be bonus info for the new readers and it won't confuse them since we have the english published translations too.

I can see no "education" in writing false names. This kind of info has absolutely no relevance. We already have names and don't need erroneous "translations" made for the japanese.Folken de Fanel

I don't understand why you kept bring up "Rizard Misty" issue, so far I have not found a published work that have translation like that, of course we won't put in "Rizard Misty" type of translation when there are no publication of it.

I keep bringing up "Rizard Misty" and "Santol babel" so that you understand what is the problem with these so-called "official" names which change all the time and are never accurately translated.

So that you understand why we won't put any of these false names, wether it is "Rizard" or "Casios".

And I repeat, it was in the Shueisha Visual Remix about the 1st Hades OVA. Folken de Fanel

But if there's a large published work that have that translation where many readers already read about it then yes, we should include it with notes regarding where the publication was made and we can make a note about the the possible missed translation.

No. Because we won't write those names at all. Folken de Fanel

But without official published statment saying that they made a mistake, we can't tell people for sure that it was a mistake if such thing happened, because in that case, we'd break the NPOV rule regardless the common knowledge of spelling. That's only a scenario, so far, I have not found any large publications with translation like that yet.

So what you're saying is that unless the japanese say it was a mistake, it was not a mistake ?

So Rizard Misty and Santol Babel is right ?

No. It's not right. it's false. And the japanese will never it was a mistake because they don't care, it's not their language. They don't care. And they certainly won't say they have done anything wrong, because their policy is "we're always right".

Sorry but your too POV here.Folken de Fanel

I've said it and I'll say it again, I see your passion and I understand what you said about katakana and romanji. But we are not here to make a statment of what is absolutely right or wrong on wikipedia. We are here to provide as much information as possible, we can make notes if some parts does not make common sense but we still have to respect the fact that it was officially published and it was largely published even if the spelling is weird and they have not made any official statement about corrections in spellings.

I can see no information here.Folken de Fanel

The largely published manga is by a company of DARAN, ISBN 957-725-623-6, 1993 republished version. The 13th book which included Saint Seiya Character data toward the end of the book. There are thousands of readers that have read this version mainly in Asia where the name "Esmerarda" was published. I also have the official Japanese Saint Seiya encyclopedia, ISBN 4-8342-1690-X, where it only said "エスメラルダ" and no english name was given. We give as much info to reader as possible whenever there's large publication like that and large group of readers is involved. It's not about deleting the english published version but it's about giving all the information there is when there's a publication of it and makes additional notes about it since this wikipedia isn't only used by native english speakers only. English languge is widely used all over the world and same as the readers that uses this site where other readers from different area uses too.

So this doesn't concern the english language Wikipedia, since it's an asian-only publication. Folken de Fanel

I hope you can understand that this is about educating and informing, and it won't confuse them when we make note with the additional informations it will only make the page better if we provide additional informations then we can have even more english speaking people using this page as resources from all over the world.Yajaec 16:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If your point is saying that it does not concern english language then most of the info on the article would need to be removed according to what you say, but that's is not the case here, Wikipedia is build by people's consensus not yours along. Saint Seiya is Japanese and Japanese is ASIAN. This is a mixture, Saint Seiya origin is Japan, so you if you want to make it so English clean cut, you might as well not write anything here. You haven't provided cited source for Esmeralda translation but only based on what you said the romanji "should" be. Here is a link to "Esmerarda" translation || Saint Seiya Encyclopedia Chinese version regardless of the published version, so far, there's only been Japanese Encyclopedia and Chinese Encyclopedia for Saint Seiya. If they ever come out with an English version that translates to "Esmeralda" then by all mean we'll include it. It's not about my POV or yours. If you're not happy about it, we can create a voting section and see what other editors/readers would like to see to be included in this article for this is the wiki way.Yajaec 21:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The manga and the anime were translated in english. Everything concerns Wikipedia. However controversial and occasional translations in asian-only published works do not concern the english wikipedia, indeed.

And again, you seem to forget Wikipedia is not built on your consensus alone.

Saint Seiya is a japanese work but here we don't speak japanese but english. In english, we have the possibility to have almost all the names in their right form. Unless you haven't noticed, Cassios or esmeralda aren't japanese. These are occidental names. Thus their correct spelling doesn't depend on the excentricities of the japanese.

And if you want to do everything "a la japanese" here, then go on the japanese Wiki, they'll be pleased to see you.

The romaji "shouldn't be". They are. You might be super good at kanji, but you seem to fail to understand the purpose of the katakana: to transcribe foreign names. If they are foreign, they have to be written in they correct form on an occidental website which have the full possibility to write them as were meant to be in the first place...

Thanks for your scan, but I see it's only a chinese version of the Taizen. Thus it isn't stricly the official version, but an international translation.

Also, it seem that if we followed you, we would have to change "Bronze saint" to "Blonze saint". Know you understand me when I say the japanese really can't romanize anything correctly ? Folken de Fanel 22:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding me, there are no publication that I've seen translates "Blonze Saint" you are just trying to stretch this now. I said it before and I'll say it again, I see and understand what you said about the romanizing words but I'm stressing on "published" works. It's undisputable unless they made official corrections. I'm also looking at this as the big picture, there are large group of readers that look at this besides the native english readers, if you don't care about those group then say so. I'm not "enforcing" this because I want stuffs to be done my way, I'm thinking about other readers that will be or already been using this. I set up the voting/comment area, we'll let the people speak, if people want it, we put it on, if they don't we don't, simple as that, it's not about who's right or who's wrong on this issue, it's about informing people, providing as many info as possible. You don't have official source to proof that they are bad at translations and besides, the works is and have been published and so far, every new publication never made any chages to show errors. We'll let the other readers/editors decide, either result is fine with me as I will go with the majority on the issue.Yajaec 22:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding me ? It's right in the scan you have posted. It's even in the japanese version.

Dude, read closer and you'll see "Esmerarda" beside the Japanese name.Yajaec 23:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I have the japanese Taizen and I can see no "esmerarda" there. And you should know that in the scan you've provided, the name is not japanese but chinese. Folken de Fanel 23:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And I say it again, this is a controversial, occasional, and erroneous published work. We have not to take it into account. Plus, you've only showed me a translated published work.

It's disputable, and there no need of official corrections (they won't come, because they don't care). Because as I've said, these names aren't japanese, but directly taken from external sources, and the japanese have no right to change them. They just messed up, as they messed up "Blonze Saint", "Rizard" and "Santol". What is undisputable, is that the correct names are meant to be "Bronze", "Lizard" and "Centaur" (the exact names are used in japanese).

We're on the english Wikipedia so first it means we're on an occidental websites. This means we all know the origins of the names used and their true spelling. If you don't care about it, say so.

Your "other readers" are japanese or chinese, and they won't go on the english Wiki to learn stuff about asian works, because they'll find far better documented sources in their own languages.

Incorrect names aren't information. What is information is what is relevant and accurate. All these erroneous spelling will only confuse the readers.

I have official sources that these translations are bad:

1) the manga itself doesn't feature these romaji names. They're part of a side-work, thus not a part of the original continuity of the published work.

2) the manga use katakana. The katakana are used to render foreign words. thus the original words that were intended by Kurumada must be used.

3) Yes I have proof these names are incorrect, because Kashiosu doesn't translate as "Casios" (which is pronunced Cazios), "emerald" translates as "esmeralda" in spanish, and the bronze is written "bronze" and not "blonze", and the lizard constellation is written "Lizard" not "Rizard", and a Centaur is written "Centaur" and not "Santol".

The japanese won't change anything because they don't care, because it's not they're language. Wether or not they change it, Rizard, Santol and Bloze will always be mistakes, and you can't do anything about it.

It's of no use to vote. Wikipedia use only accurate info so any inaccuracy will be changed anyway. Because Rizard, Blonze and Santol don't exist. Folken de Fanel 23:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not your call to say it's no use to vote, that info have a published reliable source, it's not up to you to determent if the publisher is wrong. And stop talking about Rizard and Blonze and whatever, I have not seen such translations so far, and like I said, if there is a large publication that have those funky translations, they should be included with additional note to inform people regarding the different publication, wiki is here to inform all that have source and publication that can be cited from, wiki is not here to tell people what is absolutly correct and what is absolutly not, when you create your very own online encyclopedia, you are more than welcome to tell people what is absolute proper translations against what were published. Let the people decide with the vote.Yajaec 23:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not your call either to say it's useful to vote. Obviously you're tending to neglect the main audience of the english Wiki, to ignore the already published english translated works.

According to Wiki rule, that's what we're suppose to do, what the heck do you mean it's useless to vote any way. How do you know who the main audience of english Wiki, english has been international languge for years now, and those name are english name that was published, you also need to cit from the name that you said is also english published.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a published source, but neither official as you're presenting only a translated publication, nor accurate because we all know (and even you have admitted it) that these names are false.

I did not admitted these names are false nor I said it is aboslutly correct, and that's not the point, it's an undisputed published work, and it's citable from, only you claim it's false which you are not the official Japanese publisher and you have no right to claim it's false for sure. I'm not here to state what is absolutly correct or false, I'm only stating what were undisputed published.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Then, you won't force me to stop talking about Rizard, Santol and Blonze. First, if you say this again, you are likely to fall under the "no personal attack" policy and you'll get a warning.

I only said I don't understand why you kept bring that up as there are no undisputed published work that I have seen with such translation, be my guest to scream about those words, there's no personal attack here, you are stretching that warning wayyyyy too much here.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Second, these names, however you find them ridiculous, are also in published works. "Blonze" is even in the scan you've provided (and it is also in the japanese version of the Encyclopedia).

Show me where it is writen IN ENGLISH that says "Blonze".Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

And no, these won't be included because they are unaccuracies.

Says who, says you? That would be your POV, it's undisputedable published work that I cited from.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to spread misinformation and to confuse the readers with occasional typoes resulting in a misunderstanding of the alphabet. These typoes are absolutely not relevant, AT ALL. What is the purpose of having "Blonze saint" in the article ? What will this change in the understanding of the work itself ? Absolutely nothing. This is only non-notable typoes.

Wikipedia is not here to tell people how to correctly translate and what is the absolutly correct names of these characters. You have no right to claim these consider as typoes since there are no official statment for corrections. And I've only been hearing you said "Blonze" no one else here said they have encountered a published work with the english word as "Blonze" here. The name of characters is important, so even if there are typos with largely published works, it should be noted to inform people.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

We're here to say only what is accurate. Unaccuracies have not they place here. Folken de Fanel 23:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

We are not here to tell people anything what IS accurate or not, we are here to inform facts that have been published and can be cited from, it's up to people to decide for themselves from all the facts we have given of what should it be.Yajaec 23:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

No we are here to report what is accurate. Folken de Fanel 00:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment/Vote: Name translations

There are some issues regarding some character names like Esmeralda/Esmerarda (エスメラルダ). (Also other characters like Cassios/Casios, Casa/Kaysa...etc.)

Currently it's only "Esmeralda" on the page. I'm suggesting "Esmerarda" also be added to the section with addition of a note regarding the different publication such as the || Saint Seiya Encyclopedia Chinese Version

Note this is the chinese translated version. Thus it went through the modifications of chinese editors. Folken de Fanel

My(editor: Yajaec) concern is that, besides the USA native english readers, there are large group of english readers that have been reading the other published names before the USA one so those version of english name should also be included with additional notes stating the different publications.

These other readers either know the real names because they read japanese and know the references to occidental culture, because they're occidental. Or simply they don't read the english wikipedia because they're asians and they have everything they want in their own japanese or chinese wiki.Folken de Fanel

However, editor: Folken de Fanel argued that the translation is no good due to the Japanese lack of understand in properly translating Japanese words into romanji to official English words so that these names are considered to be false and should not be included.

And also because you're only providing an already altered source. Folken de Fanel

So I'm asking for all readers/editors' vote and comments.

---

Comments Please first write Agree or Disagree or other and follow by reason or comments. (Agree to add other published name, or Disagree and don't add the other published name, or others - different reason)22:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree - Add the other offical published name due to large group of different english readers from different areas that have known those names already before the USA version. Those are officially published, therefore we have cited source and to prevent confusion, we will add additional note to those other version of the name, a good way to inform and educate readers regarding different version/publications, different spelling/translation of the names.Yajaec 22:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree:

These other readers either know the real names because they read japanese and know the references to occidental culture, because they're occidental. Or simply they don't read the english wikipedia because they're asians and they have everything they want in their own japanese or chinese wiki.

We're on the english wiki so info must essencially be directed towards the english-speaking audience, and also, as we're on a mostly occidental-based wiki (that is, with most editors familiar to occidental culture, as most of them are either american or british) and every one is able to identify the occidental names and references behind the katakana (a kind of japanese "alphabet" used to transcribe foreign words into a readable form for japanese people).

The so-called official "source" cited by Yajaec is onlythe chinese translated version. Thus it went through the modifications of chinese editors.

Which shows my point of large group of readers that knows the name as "Esmerarda" and showing the different publication have different translations.Yajaec 23:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No. There is no point AT ALL. First, the chinese don't care about the english wiki, they have their own Wiki. Then, there are far more people knowing Esmeralda than "esmerarda". Folken de Fanel 23:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Dude, obviously you have no idea how large of chinese based asian group that are also english readers. It's not just chinese from China or Taiwan or Hong Kong, there are english readers from Singapore, Malaysia just to name a few that are english readers who read about these published name in asia years ago(and even in recent published books) and now here. It's your own saying that there are far more people knowing the translation of Esmeralda than of Esmerarda.Yajaec 00:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No. But it's a fact that "esmerarda" is an occasional and non-notable typo. And anyway, here we're still on the english wikipedia, for an english-speaking audience. Typoes from non-english books aren't the subject here. Folken de Fanel

You've forgotten to say that if we follow you, we'll also have to change "Bronze saint" to "Blonze Saint" (even if the word used in japanese means literally "Bronze"), "Lizard" to "Rizard" (even if the word used in japanese means literally "Lizard") and "centaur" to "Santol" (even if the word used in japanese literally means "Centaur").

Now the people can really express themselves on the matter, they know everything there is to know.Folken de Fanel 23:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, stop putting words in my mouth, I never talked about things should be change to "Rizard" or "Blonze". (But if there are large publication made such funky translation then it should be added with notes to inform people of different publications, we are here to inform not to tell people what is absolutely proper way to translate names).Yajaec 23:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No. It won't be added because it is totally unaccurate, and it is non-notable and of NO USE AT ALL. What do people care if an unknown and obscur book made a typo in the spelling of an otherwise ultra-known name (in its accurate form) ? Everyone knows it's Bronze Saint and not Blonze Saint. These are non-notable and occasional typoes. Folken de Fanel 23:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Again it's not up to you to say no, we'll let the vote decided. We'll see if the people care or not, and those are not typo, the same spelling has been published in manga versions beside the encyclopedia. And again, stop with the "Blonze" statment, you are just trying to make it sounds crazy, there's no publication that I've seen yet with such translation. And we'll see how the vote comes out, either way is fine with me as long as it's what the people wants.Yajaec 00:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And again, whatever the vote is, what is inaccurate remains inaccurate, what is non-notable remains non-notable.

No you're wrong. These are typoes. Some may have come from the occasional encyclopedia at the end of the japanese volume 13 (and they're still typoes. Besides "Esmerarda", you seem to have conveniently forgotten to mention "Black Andlomeda" and "Black Pheonix". Yes, these are in the japanese encyclopedia. So it's just typoes). But after that, if the chinese ditors have repeated the same typoes, that's their problem, not ours. Here we know what are the real names as we're occidental and we know how they're spelled.

As for "Blonze", it's right in the scan you've given earlier. it's even in the japanese version of the Taizen. So no, I won't stop with it and you won't force me to stop. I've said such remarks from you would be considered as personal attacks. So if you want to avoid receiving an official warning, please change your tone.

I'm not trying to make it sound crazy. You're all excited over stupid romaji typoes like "esmerarda" and I'm only pointing out at other typoes of the same sort, and "Blonze" is one. Now, it seems you're particularly reluctant to take "Blonze" into account (and you're right), but if you want to include every typoes each book have made on romaji names, then you'll have to write Blonze also.

But since you realize the stupidity of this "Blonze" thing, then there is no need to go further and we won't include the other stupid typoes either. Esmerarda is as stupid as blonze, and so, neither of them will appear in the article.

I repeat, these are just typoes from occasional and mostly unknown publications. These aren't notable, they are totally uninteresting and of no use. Every one already know the right names. As I've said, what do people care if an unknown and obscur book made a typo in the spelling of an otherwise ultra-known name (in its accurate form) ?

These are just exceptional typoes, they are of no use and they won't change the perception of the readers about the series. Folken de Fanel 00:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What to take as canon?

Ok, here's the deal. You guys keep on arguing about different ways to spell names, etc. So why don't we establish a clear set of rules? First, do we all agree that whatever appeared in the original manga ( not translations of some other languages) should be taken as canon and non-disputable? Ric 00:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Everything appearing in the manga and accurate. Folken de Fanel 01:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree. If it's from some other sources, you can say it's not accurate. However, this article is about Saint Seiya. Saint Seiya is created by Kurumada. Since he is the creator, whatever written by him is accurate with respect to this article. Ric 01:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

As I said earlier, even after writing this, I'm not so sure you'll be ready to definitely erase the words "Bronze" or "Andromeda" from your vocabulary, and replace them until the world ends, by "Blonze" and "Andlomeda". ;)

That's what I implied by "accuracy". As I've explained, the japanese literally suck at romanisation.

So it's obvious Saint Seiya uses real astronomical references, and it is clear that the character "Shun" is the Saint of Andromeda, not "Andlomeda", which is not an existing constellation. You see what I mean by "accuracy" ? Even if it comes from the manga, it's still an enormous TYPO that we can't take into account. Moreover, these typoes only appeared in a side-work, an encyclopedia seperated from the actual manga (that is, the storyline). In the manga, the names are only in japanese characters. And for a certain number of charaters, their names are exact transcription of existing foreign words, so we'll use these words, as it has always been done before. Folken de Fanel 11:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The actual main issue does not fall under those name from astrology, it's the ones like Cassios/Casios, Kaysa/Casa, Esmerarda/Esmeralda.

But it's the same. Why would we talk about some typoes and not others ? Andlomeda is a typo exactly like Esmerarda is. Both were published in the very same book. Folken de Fanel

What the author wrote in origin in Japanese would be correct (before any translation made into english). First of all, the author have the right to name his character however he wants, and how ever he wants to spell them, the problem is, author never officially published those "common" like names in English spelling only in romanji so there are no 100% proof as to the "correct" english spelling. Like parents nameing their childs, for the common name like Allen/Alan/Ellen/Allan can have different spelling to the parent's liking. Therefore author have the same right to make different kind of spelling to his liking for names like Kaysa/Casa, Esmerarda/Esmeralda, etc.

But we're only talking about romanisation typoes, here, not spellings to "the liking of the author". Remember Andlomeda.Folken de Fanel

The suggestion of that Japanese "sucks" at romanji conversion applied to this would be a personal POV.

This is fact, from the "Andlomeda" or "Rizard" or "santol" or "Blonze" things. And also because I've seen numerous "funky" transcription into romaji by the japanese. Folken de Fanel

Author did not officially published those romanji name in full english translation which lead to the full on "discussion" of this topic. The example of "Bronze" and "Andromeda" can not be used as sufficient example because those have hard core evidence due to the way author build the story. Saint Seiya uses astrology signs and mineral elements of Steel, Bronze, Silver and Gold which is undisputable. Common naming on the other hand would be hard to determine since the author never officially published those romanji name in full on english letters. Since the author did not wrote in english, to provide those info on this wiki site we would have to use the translated versions and we cite them as it is published fact but we make no claim as to it "is" the official correct names/spelling that author decided since author only wrote in Japanese. If one would declare that foreign published work is not good enough to cite from then it would apply to all, including english published work because Saint Seiya came from Japan, anything outside of Japan would be "foreign" which in that case, anything we wrote here in english would not be good enough. Wiki is build by concensus of all editors here, if we need to create a rule for translation, it would have to be agreed by majorities. Simply declaring Japanese "sucks" at translating romanji is not good enough.Yajaec 18:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It might not be good enough for you, but it's true nonetheless and we have to take that into account, before deciding that the author has chosen the names "to his liking", while these aforesaid names are obvious and undisputable typoes (Andlomeda). In those circumstances, you would have to really prove they were intended to be used in a proper way and were not mere typoes due to a weak mastering of the roman alphabet by japanese people...Folken de Fanel 20:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No, we are not allow to "decide" for author when he never declair the official english spelling, all we can do is state what was published in all variations. We are not here to prove anything thing, we state the variations and cite from them which falls under the NPOV rule. What you believe to be typos and false romanji translation is your own POV since you are not the publisher to admit they have made a mistake(no matter what you think) nor are you the author who never made the statement that those publisher make the spelling errors (no matter how wrong you think it is).

We 'know they are typoes, even you have admitted it. It's undisputable. And please don't answer violently any longer.

Making decisions like that is personal POV when neither publisher nor author stated what is correct english spelling or wrong. When stating all the published names (no matter how right or wrong you think they are, they are published and have not been disputed by neither author nor publisher themselves) we provide note stating the variation of the translations of different publishers and make no claims as to what is absolutly correct and this is within NPOV rule and let the readers decide themselves.Yajaec 21:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not making decisions, I'm stating facts. it's only your POV saying we don't know. Folken de Fanel

Now the author has officially published those romanji names in full English (See a scanned page in the newly published manga [6]), can we agree to it and end this debate? Ric 23:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

mmm... simply to add a line like "the official spelling is XXX but it's probably\noticeably a typo" isn't good enough? This set everything, since it gives the official spelling(wrong or right has no importance in this way), the more probably correct spelling and warn one of them may be wrong...Sirtao 22:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't see the point in all this. It would only confuse the readers.

What's the point of adding alternate spellings just to say that they can't be taken into account ? Better not to write it at all. Folken de Fanel 00:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

the point of adding alternate spellings is give more information. More information is good. We must NOT decide what is important and what is not. It's a related information? then add it makes sense. I cannot see any good reason to don't add the official spelling... they _ARE_ the official spelling, as wrong as they can be.Sirtao 01:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I still can't see the point, and the point of adding "more information" if it's erroneous.

These are not official spellings. they are translations published in a side-work.

As I say, you have to realise that we'll also have to change the word "Bronze" to "Blonze". Folken de Fanel 10:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Meh, simply take the western name first then the romanisation of the Kanji next to it. It's as simple as that. Refuteku 23:33, 24 November 2006

All right, I am back and I am making one comment here. "Blonze", "Rizard" or whatever are not important here, they did not appear in the original manga, thus they are NOT canon whatever the spelling. However, in the newly re-published manga this year (I mean the Japanese version, pure and original), the English words for the names are given (for example EAGLE MARIN for this picture [7]). Since this is the OFFICIAL document, I believe we should use whatever the spelling given there. Ric 23:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

"All right, I am back and I am making one comment here. "Blonze", "Rizard" or whatever are not important here, they did not appear in the original manga, thus they are NOT canon whatever the spelling" : So you're saying "Andlomeda" is canon, then ? It's simple, we won't use nonsensical names that are mere typoes, that's all.

We'll use the names as they were intended by Kurumada (if he decided to give english katakana names to his characters we'll use them, and that's already done in the article) but this whole discussion about various engrish typoes is pointless. Folken de Fanel 01:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

No. I said only the original manga is canon. As far as I know, the original manga used the spelling "Andromeda"[8], not "Andlomeda".

And I know you have reverted my edits on Hercules Algethi and Cerberus Dante. I don't see the words Heracles Algethi and Kerberos Dante appear in the original manga. Ric 20:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

But "Black Andlomeda" is in the original manga too. So, unless it implies some secret plot or mysteries about a "twin constellation" or whatever named "Andlomeda", a la Da Vinci Code, we both agree that both "Andromeda" and "Andlomeda" were in the original manga, and that as both spellings cannot be possible at the same time, we both agree that "Andlomeda" and other "excentric" spellings are mere engrish typoes due to the well known "habit" of the japanese of misspelling romaji words.

Taken from the engrish article : "The term originates from the fact that Japanese and a few other East Asian languages do not have separate sounds for R and L. In Japanese the R sound is pronounced as an alveolar lateral flap (ɺ), articulated with the tongue flapped against the hard palate behind the front teeth, so that it sounds like a Spanish soft R. Because Japanese does not have a separate equivalent for the English L, native Japanese speakers not fluent in English often mispronounce English words containing the letter L. "

So the matter is settled, all these excentric spellings are mere typoes, thus totally inaccurate and which will NEVER be in the article (unless you're ready to justify the use of "Andlomeda").

For your other question, well, that's simply their names. If, as you say, we must stick to what the original says, then we'll take these names. Because the original names of the characters are ヘラクレス (Herakuresu = Heracles) and ケルベロス (Keruberos = Kerberos). Folken de Fanel 00:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What if I tell you that the manga gives the English spelling "Cerberus Dante"? Are you going to say this is a typo like Andlomeda and insist on using Kerberos? Ric 06:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes because that's not what's written in japanese. We have to remain faithfull to the original. These badly romanized names are not the original but translations. If they differ from the original name (like "Andlomeda) they are of no use...Folken de Fanel 10:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)