Talk:List of World War II air aces
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Nice. I was thinking a breakout of tops would be good (since a lot of folks want the biggest on the block). Was my intention in providing the "complete" list that some of the aces with smaller counts but with notable histories could also be linked. But I like this page. PilotPrecise 10:45, 9 March 2004 (UTC)
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[edit] Eek!
I'd like to say that I'm shocked and appalled by the lack of respect writers of this article give to all those that died in World War II. "Oh, he killed 302 people, he's such an ace" ?! I'm beyond words :-(
- FYI, a "kill" is shooting down another plane, tank, or similar craft. You don't get "kills" for strafing the ground shooting civilians. (That's what Bomber Command is for!), so it's just that he shot down 300 enemy pilots. Sherurcij July 7, 2005 14:36 (UTC)
- The more typical term for aerial combat was "victory."Al Lowe
[edit] Warning
Numbers of kills might be WRONG in this article - I've improved a few cases, that I've noticed (Frantisek, etc). Pibwl 23:36, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] FYI
I made a few corrections for what I am aware of. And "kills" is not the common word for downing airplanes. The more common word is "victory, or victories." In any event, I also added Lance C. Wade, an American who flew with the RAF until his death in 1944.Al Lowe 19:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Training issues.
I wouldn't say that the US wasn't trained as well in fighter combat than other nations; our doctrine was just different. After a certain number of missions, the more experienced pilots would be circulated back to the states to serve as flying instructors; thus, the relatively low number of kills for American pilots. The Japanese Naval Air Force, on the other hand, had a grueling pilot training regimen, put all their strength up front, and, well, we all know what happened. Suffice to say, the Battle of the Philippine Sea is an excellent example of the clash between American training doctrine and Japanese training doctrine.
- It should be noted that the JNAF training was shortened considerably AFTER the US entered the war. Their training method, proved to long, and created a shortage they could not recover from.Al Lowe
[edit] Listing by country instead
Wouldnt it be better to list the aces in separate lists for every country instead of having them all lumped into one big list?
- That might be a way to go, but I'd keep the UK/Commonwealth aces together. But that's just me.Al Lowe 21:19, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Gross POV
Russian pilots had a hard time surviving long enough to become aces, as they often received little training, fought against more experienced Nazi pilots, and had planes that favored a skilled pilot rather than a beginner. Germany has the highest scoring aces due to often superior aircraft, many pilots having a lot of experience from earlier fighting, and the fact that German pilots had to serve until they were shot down. Most American pilots were cycled stateside to instruct newer pilots after a tour of duty, thus the lower number of kills.
What in the world is this? a) Soviet pilots did not have a "hard time surviving long enough" b) Not all Luftwaffe pilots were Nazi's (by definition, members of that party) c) Luftwaffe did not have superior aircraft by many accounts
It should be noted that Luftwaffe counted kills in a very different fashion from other nations with many "word of mouth" tallies. Soviet Union did not count a kill unless it was confirmed by several independent observes in the air and on the ground. Aircraft shot down over enemy territory almost never counted because they could not be confirmed by the infantry.
- Emt147 Burninate! 07:16, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
- This is completely incorrect. The Luftwaffe tallying system was the most rigorous used by any nation. Shared Kills were credited to squadrons but not individual pilots and no kill was accepted unless it was confirmed by at least two other pilots or preferably the infantry. Furthermore, the Germans were this rigorous precisely because they were getting so many claims. There is no reason to dispute any of the German aces scores, allied kill counts are far more doubtful what with the rewarding of "halves", reliance on gun camera in preference to confirmation from the ground forces and inclusion of air-to-ground kills in some cases. The German Ace's got such high scores because they served continuously, not because they were cooking the books. "Fighter" by Len Deighton has some excellent reference on this subject. Getztashida 11:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Fighter is a very good book, but it doesn't deal directly with the Eastern Front or North Africa, the two most contentious cases. While the German records of WW1 are probably better than the Allied ones, the WW2 German system of rewarding pilots in direct proportion to the number of kills makes it suspect. Such a system put a premium on overclaiming and also for ones comrades to support overclaiming. Grant65 | Talk 14:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] How Do You Shoot Down Seven Eights of a Plane?
How is it possible to shoot down seven eights of a plane? Does like half of one wing survive and fly home on its own or something? I understand "sharing" the "credit" with another 1 or 2 people (x.5 and x.33), but how the hell can you know you shot seven out of the eight important bullets that made the plane fall? What if one of the bullets wasn't important in the end? What if only one was?--85.49.224.162 22:50, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Despite the obnoxiousness of this inquiry, a credit of x.83 is a combined total of a half and a third, defined by numbers of pilots sharing the claim. It had nothing to do with numbers of bullets but you knew that.
[edit] Is there really a need for this?
Flying ace-article has the whole list, and is better. --Pudeo 17:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed (although the other article may not be complete, it is better than this one). Kablammo 18:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Michael Jacksson
On the list is Michael_J._Jackson the singer, should he really be here?
