Talk:List of Scientology references in popular culture

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[edit] Proposed move and refocus

I suggest that this article be moved, as BTfromLA suggested to Scientology and popular culture and broadened to include not just references to Scientology but the broader topic of the relationship between the two. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:22, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Great idea! See Nuclear weapons in popular culture for how this sort of thing can be far better than the usual list article - David Gerard 19:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)


Greg Bears Novella Heads also features an organization called Logolists similar to Scientology, are books applicable in the popular culture section?
Only if they are popular.  ;-)

[edit] Holy cow - what is with all this Original Research?

Look at this: A backdoor to inserting POV original research slams of Scientology:

  • In The Simpsons episode titled "The Joy of Sect," originally aired on February 8, 1998, the family joins a cult called Movementarianism. Many aspects of this cult appear similar to Scientology, including nutritional deprivation, group humiliation, indoctrination movies, brainwashing techniques, and alien cosmology. Also parallel is the extremely litigous nature of the Movementarians. The reddish-haired guru of the cult lives a lavish lifestyle using the money of his adherents.

This article looks like 90% Original Research. If you want to put a comparison here you have to source it, otherwise it is original research. Not just source the comparison but the source has to mention all those "similarities". Reputable sources, please.

Just to make myself clear: A "Scientology reference in popular culture" would be where Scientology, Dianetics, Hubbard, etc. are mentioned by name. All of these things that go by other names that you think are references to Scientology should not be here unless they can be sourced. Sorry to be a spoilsport but there are plenty of other places you can put your unsourced ideas; wikipedia is not one of those places.

By the way, this Simpsons episode seems to be parodying a number of cults and, from my impression of the article here on wikipedia, only the alien cosmology mentioned above parodied Scientology.--Justanother 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

There may be dubious entries on the list, but I do not agree with the interpretation you're expressing that no satiric similarity, no matter how clearly intended, can be acknowledged except when outside sources have spelled it out. There is a common-sense limit to WP:NOR, as there is to most policies, and it is unreasonable to cry "original research" when, for example, someone describes something as "potentially unsafe" that has already been noted as potentially causing a fatal illness. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. It is clearly original research to say that someone is parodying Scientology when the person making the parody does not say so nor is there any reference to others making such a claim that can be sourced. The "Bowfinger" one I edited is a good example. Apparently there was sourced speculation and Steve Martin made a denial but even if there was no denial, if the speculation can be sourced, then it should be included. We don't have to place a "common sense" disclaimer to WP:V. There is already one there and it states that you can leave out the source if it could be easily sourced, i.e. "The sun rises in the east" kind of thing. This is definitely not in that category. There is a place to publish "truth" that cannot be sourced; it is your personal blog, not wikipedia. I remember you telling me that WP:V protects us all, or something to that effect.--Justanother 15:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd agree that the episode is a parody of several cults. But one aspect is clearly scientology: the part with the attorneys. --Tilman 16:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I understand that aspects of the episode likely parodied Scn. And believe me, I enjoy a good parody of Scn as much as anyone (and probably more than most). The problem comes in when we open the door for any editor to claim that anything, anything at all regardless of what the creator of the parody intended, is a parody or parallel of Scn. That is why these should really be sourced. By sourcing, we limit to those that are most likely related. Otherwise it really does just become the "OR Zone". Perhaps there should just be a separate article "List of cultic references in popular culture". Then all these could be placed there with no mention of what they might be parodying and the reader can make his own decision.--Justanother 16:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have to agree that there's some original research there that could be toned down, although it's not that flagrant. There comes a point when one doesn't need a source for the fact that water is not wet. In the episode, Homer Simpson signs a trillion-year contract with the cult. That pretty much makes it clear which cult they're parodying the most. wikipediatrix 16:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Without repeating myself on OR (yet), from what I get from the article here, they are parodying Jim Jones the most, but with elements from other "cults", too. But I have not seen the episode nor am I enough of an expert on other cults to say what goes where though I certainly do not object to your and Tilman's characterizations of those specific bits. If we were watching it together we would probably all have a good laugh. The problem is adding our unsourced interpretations to wikipedia. That is the very definition of original research, even if we share them with lots others and even if they are "obvious".--Justanother 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
If we rephrase the article so it says "Widely regarded by fans as a parody of Scientology", there's sourcing here: [1]. (Incidentally, of all the people who have analyzed the episode at snpp.com, no one even mentions Jim Jones as being something the show is parodying.) wikipediatrix 16:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't object. I would like to hear what others say about the OR point. I would word it something like the below. Re: Jim Jones, that may OR here and/or it may be that the snpp guys missed obvious references because Jim Jones is almost 30 years ago.

  • In The Simpsons episode titled "The Joy of Sect," originally aired on February 8, 1998, the family joins a cult called Movementarianism. Fans believe that the episode parodied a number of alleged cults including Scientology; possible Scientology references include the use of an orientation movie, the extremely litigous nature of the Movementarians, Homer signing a trillion-year contract, and a reddish-haired guru[2].--Justanother 17:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Looks OK to me. I'd temper it to "Many fans have suggested" rather than "Fans believe". wikipediatrix 18:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, I will put this one back as sourced. I will look at the others as time permits. Please, all, source them if you want them or discuss sourcing here. Thanks--Justanother 00:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganized

OK, I changed the page around because it is important to distinquish between actual references (including those veiled references that the creator acknowledges) and those that are mere supposition. The suppositions should still be sourced. Well they should all be sourced but the actual ones self-source. Oh, BTW, I see that I did not do the division exactly right. Feel free to correct my errors (of course). --Justanother 23:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I think you have gone too far. Suggesting that Repo Man's 'Dioretix - The Science of Matter over Mind' is only a "suggested veiled reference" to Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health is simply plain silly. There's no ambiguity about what it is parodying. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
It is just a simple division. Either they specifically mention or they don't. If they don't, then they don't and it is a veiled reference. Pretty broad in the Repo Man case, sure, but still veiled. Let the reader draw his own conclusion. Otherwise it gets into too much shading, IMO. That is my point also about OR. If you put something sourced and then draw a conclusion from that info that is NOT in the source then you have done OR. Again, just put the info and let the reader draw his own conclusion . . . or find a source for the conclusion that you want to put in the article. Since wikipedia is not peer-reviewed the way it keeps out every editor's opinions and conclusions is by requiring them to be sourced. I know that a ton of articles are written (or pasted) that are mostly OR and are unreferenced but they are not controversial. Scientology is and has to stay very strictly to NOR or we will have a free-for-all. Thanks for discussing this here. Let's see what the other editors have to say. In short, put the reference as veiled and let the reader make the connection. --Justanother 05:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I find that your logic does not hang together. You are basically suggesting that no matter how broad, obvious, even inescapable a parody is, if it is a "veiled" reference, it is automatically a "suggested veiled reference". WP:NOR was never intended it to place obstacles in the path of observing that which no reasonable editor would doubt. Are you telling us that you actually doubt that "Dioretix" is a reference to Dianetics? -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Well yes, it is a veiled reference. Simple test here. Had the creator wanted a direct reference he would have said "Dianetics" not "Dioretix". Was he making a joke, like Dianetics is like a diuretic? Or like diarrhea? We don't know what he intended. And we don't have to guess. And this for an "easy one". What about the more remote ones. Should we assign each one a "veiling factor"? Easy solution: it is either direct or it is veiled.--Justanother 03:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contents of L Ron Hubbard "parody" section--in need of integration into this article

Per discussions on the L. Ron Hubbard page, I've cut the parody section there: the contents are below, and should be incorporated here as editors see fit.

Hubbard was awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature for "his crackling Good Book, Dianetics, which is highly profitable to mankind — or to a portion thereof". The presenter observed he was also the most prolific posthumous author that year.

In 2001,an independent film called The Profit was produced, which featured a character called L. Conrad Powers, founder of the Church of Spiritual Science, who used a device called a Mind Meter. Although the producers stressed that any resemblance to Scientology was entirely coincidental, the Church of Scientology obtained an injunction blocking its release.[1] However, some of those who saw the film, even critics of Scientology, derided it as over the top, and the organisation behind the film's production, Human Rights Cinema, was accused of being an anti-cult group.[2][3]

On the South Park episode "Trapped in the Closet", it was claimed that Stan Marsh is L. Ron Hubbard reincarnated and that Hubbard was a "prophet". As a reference to Scientology's litigious tendencies, all the credits at the end of this episode were changed to read "John/Jane Smith". The episode also has an animated version of the Xenu story; in case a viewer might mistakenly think South Park was exaggerating for satiric effect, this sequence is accompanied by a caption reading "This is what Scientologists actually believe". Isaac Hayes, who voiced "Chef" on the show and is himself a Scientologist, ostensibly left the cast on account of this episode. However, it isn't clear whether this was his own decision or a decision of upper-level Scientologists; during a radio interview on The Opie and Anthony Show after the episode aired, Hayes defended South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone, saying, "If you take the shit they say seriously, then I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge for two dollars". South Park further parodied Scientology when Isaac Hayes left South Park over the issue: in The Return of Chef - "Chef" is portrayed as being brainwashed by some "fruity little club," a group of child molesters called the "Super Adventure Club", a veiled reference to Isaac Hayes and his links to Scientology.

Anthony Boucher's murder mystery Rocket to the Morgue (1942) features cameos of members of the Mañana Literary Society of Southern California. Hubbard makes a dual appearance as D. Vance Wimpole and Rene Lafayette (one of his pen names). Jack Parsons is also there as the character "Hugo Chantrelle".

In Frank Zappa's rock-opera album Joe's Garage the main character Joe seeks advice from L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology, who directs him to a lifestyle of having sex with appliances and robots.

In the David Eddings series of Tamuli books, a silly theatrical character who performs and tells tall tales in front of locals to gain support for a strange cult is named Elron (L. Ron).

Philip K. Dick's short story The Turning Wheel features a post-apocalyptic religion following the teachings of "the Bard, Elron Hu".

Niven and Pournelle's novel Inferno (a retelling of Dante's Inferno) has a description of a one-time science fiction writer who created his own religion "that masks as form of lay psychiatry" and is now - quite literally - in hell as a result.

There have also been numerous other jabs at L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology from other sources; for example, the final city in the computer game Fallout 2 contains the Hubologist cult which is a direct take on Scientology.

Hubbard is also a featured character in the novel The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril by Paul Malmont.

On the Millennium episode "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense", the (fictional) writer Jose Chung interviews a member of the "Church of Selfosophy", founded by his former science fiction writer colleague, "J. Onan Goopta".

Steve Martin's movie, Bowfinger, features a cult called "Mindhead" whose posh celebrity center is said to be based on a Hollywood facility serving Scientology's star clientele.

Steven Soderbergh's 1996 comedy Schizopolis features a cult called Eventualism led by one T. Azimuth Schwitters which is seemingly inspired by Hubbard.

In Neal Stephenson's book Snow Crash, there is a character named L. Bob Rife who has an ocean-going fleet centered on a surplus aircraft carrier, and populated by mind-controlled followers.[4]

The Snake Oil Wars by Parke Godwin satirizes Hubbard by having him serving his time in Hell as an answering machine.

The song Ænema, by the band Tool, denounces Hubbard with the line "...fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones."

The satirical art religion "The Church of the SubGenius" has as its prophet and Messiah figure a 1950's appliance salesman named J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, whose image of an always-smiling, pipe-smoking, Brylcreem covered head is appropriated from 1950's clip art. The Texas based group also integrates elements of Fundamentalist Christianity and televangelists into their writings and media projects.

L-Ron, a sentient robot from the DC Comics universe, and former assistant to Manga Khan, is named after Hubbard, as other robot assistants Khan of were named after science fiction writers (Hein-9, K-Dikk).

In the 1986 film, Stoogemania, which deals with a Three Stooges fan (Josh Mostel) attempting to break his addiction to the comedy threesome, said fan ends up going to a rehab clinic run by a mysterious figure named "L. Ron Howard" ('Howard' being the last name shared by Moe, Curly and Shemp). "L. Ron Howard" only appears on TV screens at the clinic - he is never seen in person.

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