Talk:List of Presidents of the United States

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List of Presidents of the United States is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute.

[edit] The Democratic Party is improperly labelled "Democrat".

Renaming the Democratic Party the "Democrat Party" is a subtle slur used by right-wing politicians and pundits. Please update the party column to read "Democratic" for Presidents who were members of the Democratic Party.

While right-wingers often use "Democrat Party" in this way, I don't think that's what's going on here. "Democrat" is often used as a noun to identify a member of the Democratic party., i.e. "Bill Clinton was a Democrat", not "Bill Clinton was a Democratic". The other parties happent to have noun forms that are identical to their adjective forms, i.e., "George Bush is a Republican". I honestly think it would look kind of weird to change the text in the Party column to read "Democratic" -- it would be an unattached adjective. I think the sense is that we're saying "This president was a Democrat (or Republican or Whig or whatever). --Jfruh (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

We're using "Democratic-Republican", which can only properly be the adjective; we should use "Democratic", if only to avoid the appearance the anon perceives. Septentrionalis 00:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. "Jefferson was a Democratic-Republican." What noun form would you use? --Jfruh (talk) 03:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"Jefferson was a Democratic Republican". For the rule involved, see Fowler: Modern English Usage. (BE, I know; but eighteenth-century typography was much the same in both countries.) For the evidence, see Dictionary of American English. Septentrionalis 04:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, whatever, then change the D-R names to D R so that everything is a noun form. Adjectives floating out there by themselves will look odd. Plus there are fewer of them to change :). --Jfruh (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Then you don't think the anon's complaint above worth responding to? That's what I reacted to; I wouldn't have bothered for consistency.

"Worth responding to?" Not sure what you mean by that. You'll note that I was the one who did respond to it on this page in the first place. I don't mean to be dismissive of it, and I certainly understand that "Democrat" is used in a deliberately dismissive way in some contexts; I resonded to it by saying that I don't get that vibe at all from its use in this list, and I'm actually the kind of guy whom that sort of thing annoys, if you follow me. It just strikes me as something of an overcompensation for a perceived slight. I guess the honest truth is that I don't really care, for all the energy I'm putting into this conversation; if you really want to change "Democrat" to "Democratic", be my guest; I have no plans to fight over it.--Jfruh (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to fight over it either; I continued the conversation to find what you feel strongly about. I meant "responding to" by adapting the article, as opposed to "replying to"; sorry for the ambiguity. Septentrionalis 00:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

(The page is now consistently by adjectives, btw; or, to put it another way, by the name of the Party rather than the name of its members.) Septentrionalis 17:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the thing is that "Republican," "Whig," and "Federalist" can be adjectives or nouns. Seeing "Democrat" (which can only be a noun) in the list just made me assume the others were being used as nouns too. (I'm not 100 percent convinced on the Fowler's citaion being relevant to "Democratic-Republican", either, as the word "Democratic" doesn't really modify the word "Republican". I'm not familiar with the historiography of the period, but I'd be curious to see how they punctuate the phrase used as a noun phrase.) Then there' "National Union" for Jackson, about which, just, ugh. But that's another story :) --Jfruh (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The column says "Party". There is no "Democrat" party, there is a "Democratic" party. To label otherwise would be incorrect and unencyclopedic. Skyemoor 14:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

As a minor point: I don't think it looks odd; it's what I would expect, like a primary election exchange or a questionnaire: "Party? Democratic." Septentrionalis 17:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, to a point. Jefferson predated "Democratic Republican" and was strictly a "republican" or "Republican". "Democrat Party" is certainly misused today, and should not be reinforced as a form of informed speech. Skyemoor 01:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This exaggerates. His party had several names, of which "republican" was the most common; it became progressively less common after 1800. To use it here, however, is to be pedantic at the cost of producing inevitable misunderstanding; in fact, asserting that Jefferson and Lincoln belonged to the same Party. Septentrionalis 03:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As long as we are going for accuracy with "Democratic", we should also go for accuracy with all party titles. "republican" would be correct for Jefferson and Madison (his first presidential election at a minimum). There would be no confusion due to the small 'r'. Indeed, along with being correct, it would likely stimulate interest in learning more about this period. Skyemoor 14:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur with the comments below at #Color Legend.

I'm sure you are: you went and chased down that admin to act as your proxy. 66.225.251.176 23:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the idea that the purpose of WP is to force information down our readers' throats; and misinforming some of them for the sake of piquing the curiosity of others about why we say something so outlandish is not a good bargain. Septentrionalis 20:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

So false information is to be desired over what really happened? Isn't there a name for that? Is this the Disney version of American History? Jefferson and Madison called themselves and their party "republican" or sometimes "Republican", and this has been recognized by a long list of contemporary historians. Granted, there are non-historians, especially writers of childrens books, who still use DR in an all-encompassing manner, but why should we use a roller instead of a paintbrush on this mural of our country's history? 66.225.251.176 23:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur with the comments below at #Color Legend.

I'm sure you are: you went and chased down that admin to act as your proxy. 23:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)Skyemoor

[edit] Who is Uncle Henry the Great?

[edit] Richard Nixon Photograph

there seems to be a breakdown in the photographs at the time we reach Richard Nixon, as in his pic is not there and everyone afterwards is wrong. Edit: looks like it was being edited in the background and all is fine now

[edit] Vertical width of bars

Maybe we should make the vertical width of bars proportional to years in office

[edit] Middle names/initials

I believe this list should omit middle names/initials except when necessary to distinguish Adamses, Bushes, (or VP Stevenson- who might be confused with his great-grandson, the presidential candidate). Any thoughts on this? --Mark Adler 01:34, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Keep All, it is never bad to know their full names - TopAce 16:19, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree with TopAce. "John Kennedy"? Come on. What is the point of listing that instead of John F. Kennedy? And what rule says middle names need to be omitted? I have added them for JFK and FDR. Bssc81 16:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a very simple answer for this. On each individual biography page (e.g., Lyndon B. Johnson), the issue of how that person is to be primarily represented on Wikipedia has presumably already been discussed (or will be discussed), if there is any controversy. I would guess that in most cases editors would agree to go with the most common way that particular president is called (e.g., "John F. Kennedy," not "John Kennedy" or "John Fitzgerald Kennedy"). Why not follow the precedent set on each individual biography page? We have to link to it anyway, and there's no reason to create a piped link. It does not make sense to introduce an inconsistency in the way Wikipedia refers to these people. I am removing the comment at the head of the article until such time as a consensus is reached. -Exucmember 00:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Since you didn't really give a reason why middle initials should be removed, and since everyone else (myself included) seem to want them in, I'm adding them back in for now. --Zarel 19:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Andrew Johnson

I changed it once, but got reverted: shouldn't his bar be a different color since he was a Unionist president? -Litefantastic 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Although Johnson often sided with Democrats, he was elected along with Lincoln under the Republican ticket (known as the Unionist Party at the time). The article lists John Tyler as a Whig, because that's the party he was elected with, even though he often sided with Democrats. If Tyler is listed as a Whig, Johnson should be listed as a Republican.24.118.91.125 00:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Impeached footnote

I fail to understand why removing the impeached footnote is an improvement to the list. When browsing the list, I think that information is helpful, since it is a specific constitutional process that has rarely been used, is important, and applies to the presidency. It highlights the fact that impeachement is not the same as removal from office, alerts modern readers to the fact that Clinton was the second president impeached, and is especially useful for people who remember that but can't remember exactly which one was the first president impeached. I'm re-adding it. If anyone wants to remove it, please give a justification for removing useful information here first. --Tox 12:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Impeachment is a very interesting feature and it is an important part of that President's term. I do agree with you, if that's your position. However, I think impeachment is not important in this article.

This article lists five categories: Name, Took office, Left office, Party, and Vice President(s). The footnotes (other than [I] Impeached) explain a deviation from the norm of one of these categories. Did his term end early? Yes... footnotes [A], [D], or [R]. Did he run on a party ticket that wasn't his party's? Yes… footnotes [U] or [W].

I think the standard is (and ought to be) whether the subject had a deviation from the norm of one of the categories by which the subject is listed. By this standard, someone (maybe me, but not right now) ought to add footnotes for those Presidents who entry into office was also unusual.

If we were to include impeachment, then under what standard are we to include footnotes? What other categories? If there was a war? If he was married? If he was a Quaker? There are other very useful lists that include these categories.

--Mark Adler 18:17, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The POTUS Table

That is a very nice, and elaborate table. It adds much elegance and beauty to the article. Whomever crafted this article needs a thumbs (2) up! Эрон Кинней 23:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Clicking on GW Bush takes you to his edit page

I'm not sure why, but when I click on the link to GWB, it takes me to his edit page, and not to his article page. Is this a bug?

[edit] Consistency Regarding Nicknames

I notice that Clinton is referred to as Bill and Carter is referred to as Jimmy, but Theodore Roosevelt is not referred to as Teddy. It seems like it might be good to use real names, or at least be consistent.

Clinton and Carter are ALWAYS (cue someone saying that they sometimes are not, but that is extremely rare) called Bill and Jimmy, respectively. Roosevelt is frequently called Theodore, so it's correct. --Rory096 06:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Beyond that, Roosevelt HATED being called "Teddy".JamesBenjamin 22:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Color Photographs

Images for presidents 1-7 and 34-43 are color but 8-33 are not. I realize the first 7 are paintings and the last 10 are photos, but would it be possible to get color pictures or paintings for the others?

I would say pictures are preferable to paintings, even if they're black and white. We won't be able to get color pictures, since they didn't have them back then. --Rory096 06:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Middle Initials

I think, simply in terms of consistency and improving the list, that middle initials should be included. I mean, who calls Taft "William Taft"? At least the H should be included. I would like to know if it is allright for me to fix this.

It's fine. Remember to be WP:BOLD in editing Wikipedia, especially if you don't think anyone will disagree. --Rory096 06:12, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Also, Harry Truman did not have a middle name, he added the initial 'S' later, and therefore there should be no period after the letter.

[edit] Seems damaged

I just want to mention, that the "Bottle of wine" and "Linux" does not seem right for Washington, the first president.

[edit] The MIS-numbering of the Presidents

Just as we have 50 states (NOT 51), we have only had 42 (NOT 43) presidents. They should be numbered 1-42; not 1-43 as they conventionally/traditionally are. Just because someone made a mistake 109 years ago when he (some now-dead historian?) foolishly decided that Grover Cleveland, our 22nd president, should also be counted as our 24th president upon his unusual re-election to a second (though non-consecutive) term. Other presidents had previously been re-elected to second (consecutive) terms, but none of them were ever accorded two "numbers". There was no good reason for this then; and it has caused every succeeding president to be MIS-numbered ever since. When William McKinley was elected after Cleveland's 2nd term, he should have been counted as our 24th president---as he was the 24th different man/person to hold that office. But since Mr. "X" had assigned #24 to Cleveland for his 2nd term already, McKinley was wrongly listed as 25th. Thus my favorite president, Teddy Roosevelt, was given the incorrect number of 26 (and unfortunately 26 concrete steps were poured, upon his death, leading up to his gravesite in his Oyster Bay cemetery)---even though he was, in actuality, only president #25. Though Grover Cleveleand was in fact a big man, a large man weighing about 260 pounds, he was only one single person (not two)-- and he was only one of our 42 presidents. Unfortunately, virtually every list or "portrait gallery" of our presidents contains 43 lines or pictures, because Cleveland is named or shown twice. Why not count Franklin Delano Roosevelt as if he had been 4 different presidents then---since he was elected 4 times an served 3+ terms ? As a result of this bad numbering decision made sometime between 1884 and 1889, we no have our 42nd president, George W. Bush, constantly referred to as "43". Most adults, if asked how many different presidents the country has had, probably think there have been 43 men/persons to hold this office.---Richard Siegelman I have more "arguments", but for now I rest my case. Please THINK about it. Thank you.-----------Richard Siegelman

It is not our place to change convention or tradition. Paul August ☎ 21:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Another way to think about this is the numbering is counting presidencies, of which there were 43, Cleveland having two. Paul August ☎ 03:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Over on the List of Prime Ministers of Canada we just put a dash in the number spot of Prime Ministers who served a second non-consecutive term. If your current numbering is "official" there isn't much you can do about it, but if it's just convention, don't let that stop you from changing it. Just because other encyclopedias are silly doesn't mean that the Wikipedia has to be. Cleveland only had one presidency, the only abnormality in his case is that the two terms of his one presidency were not consecutive. -arctic gnome 00:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Whichever decision is right, the text should be self-consistent. Right now, the text says Cleveland is counted as 22 and 24, when in the list he is 22 and - : 24 is McKinley. FWIW, I think he's the 22nd President.

When is counting not counting, but orginal research? When you are talking about the list of the U.S. Presidents apparently...I agree with Paul August, in my history class in Junior High, Cleveland was both 22 and 24. I vote to go with the text and count him as 22 and 24 both there and in the table. In fact, I just looked it up: www.whitehouse.gov → Cleveland's bio says he was 22 and 24. McKinley was 25, TR was 26, etc. That's as official as I need it to be. --Easter Monkey 10:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The US State Dept. has settled Cleveland's numbering. According to my copy of the World Almanac, the US State Dept. ruled that Cleveland was the 22nd and 24th Prez. I'm unsure when this took place; however the World Almanac has had this statement over Cleveland's bio for at least the last 15 years or so. - Thanks, Hoshie 10:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tradition and Conventions Are Not Always right; Errors Should Always Be Corrected

Did you change my re-numbering back to the conventional numbering, Paul August ? (I'm new, and trying to understand how this works-- Thanks, Richard Siegelman)

yes I did. Paul August ☎ 01:24, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enumeration of the Chief Executive

First, thanks for correctly numbering the list as per the official count (as of this moment anyway). I must say though that I don't see the usefulness of an additional column for the "Terms" as this is not a statistic that I've ever seen before, nor, now that I think about it, does it actually mean anything nor would it be anything that anybody would actually recognize as being significant, anybody that I know anyway. But whatever, if it makes you happy. I promise that I won't be the one to get rid of it. --Easter Monkey 15:06, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

If no one likes it, I’ll get rid of it. But I see the terms row as allowing easy comparison of which presidents were elected for more than one term, and which ones were unelected and just took over after a death. I think that could be useful to many people, but I won’t complain if a consensus disagrees. -arctic gnome 18:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the terms column adds to the informational content of the table. Paul August ☎ 20:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess my comments were a knee-jerk reaction. I agree, it does make it easy to compare which presidents finished their own terms, which ones succeeded as a Vice President, etc. Got it, sorry for the initial "useless" comments. Good job. --Easter Monkey 06:23, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

We could make the terms calumn a bit more useful by linking them to the articles about each election. Arctic Gnome 05:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some sylistic changes

I've made a few stylistic changes, in particular:

Decapitalized and use smaller font for comments (e.g. "vacant")
Added a new row for each term.
Removed the endings from the term numbers and centered.

I think this all looks better. Hope everyone agrees ;-) Paul August ☎ 18:41, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I also thought it would look better to center align all cells. Paul August ☎ 19:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The first three items look good, but I'm not sure about centring all cells. That's just a personal preference thing, though. -arctic gnome 04:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bush Photo

I realize that somebody here might not like Bush-43. That's no excuse for porn on a list considered one of the best in the community. Please fix this post-haste. 70.16.1.227 18:44, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Color Legend

Color Legend

(no party affiliation)

Federalist

Democratic-Republican

Democrat

Whig

Republican

What about having a legend showing which party is represented by each of the row colors used in the list? We already have a column indicating party affiliation, so this would be redundant, but I see such a legend being helpful and unobtrusive. When I started looking at the page, my attention was immediately drawn to the list itself, so I missed the lone sentence stating "The colors indicate the political party affiliation of each President". It wasn't until I got into the late 1800's (with the familiar reds and blues) before it finally clicked for me.

I've taken the liberty of creating a color key here, and recommend that the community consider the possibility of placing such an item in the article. Right now, the colors are listed in order of chronological appearance; some might perceive this as being biased against Republicans, in which case alphabetical order might better. What are your thoughts?

Nevistar 17:12, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I like the legend. I think chronological is the best order. In fact I think I will be bold and add it to the page myself Eluchil404 23:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Should the vice presidents be colored to reflect their party affiliation when it differs from their present (J. Adams, T. Jefferson, A. Johnson)? Rljenk 21:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this coloring scheme give the false impression that the Democratic party of today is the same as the Democratic party of the 1850's (and the same for the Republican party)? Historically, the position of the Democrats of the 1850's reflects more closely today's Republican party than today's Democratic party--therefore the coloring scheme which has all Democrats and all Republicans as the same color regardless of the time period gives an incorrect impression. I'm not saying that the 19th century Democrats should be the same color as today's Republicans; it would be most accurate to have four different colors, wouldn't it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.104.126.109 (talk • contribs).

I strongly disagree. Of course it's true that the parties' philosophies have in many ways changed over the last hundred and fifty years or so, but its oversimplistic to say that they've just changed places. While Democratic and Republican views on civil rights made 180-degree shifts between 1860 and 1968, for instance, the Republicans have always been a party that looks to business interests for support, while the Democrats have somewhat more loosely always counted working-class people (albeit exclusively white, especially in the south, until the later 20th century) as an important component in their base.

More importantly, though, is the fact that there has been institutional continuity. The Democratic Party has changed over the decades, but there has never been a sharp break when suddenly it went from being the old reactionary post-Reconstruction Democratic Party and instantly became the new progressive Democratic Party of the New Deal and the Great Society. FDR took the party in new directions and so did LBJ, but most of the people in the party in 1928 were still in the party in 1936, and most of the people in the party in 1960 were still in the party in 1972. Ditto for the Republicans. Where would you draw the line where you would change from one color to the other? --Jfruh (talk) 16:57, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Color Legend

(no party affiliation)

Federalist

republican

Democratic-Republican

Democrat

Whig

Republican

Calling Jefferson and Madison "Democratic-Republican" is misleading; a few local parties used the term starting in 1802, though Monroe was the first to enter the Presidency under that title; even then it was not encompassing, as even Madison, Jefferson, and other party leaders were still primarily using "Republican" or "republican". I've supplied an enhanced color chart for consideration for the new color scheme. Skyemoor 15:24, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that the party of Jefferson and Madison was separate and distinct from what is commonly known as the "Democratic-Republican" party? If so, I think you'll get a lot of disagreement. As has been argued at length elsewhere, the party name used by Jefferson and Madison was somewhat in flux. No one denies that they referred to themselves as "republicans". But their party had direct lineage to what has become commonly today known as the "Democratic-Republican" party (except perhaps among snobbish historians and pedants). I don't see why it is necessary to manufacture a new party color, when the existing schema illustrates the party continuity (if not the exact name in all circumstances). older ≠ wiser 17:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that Septentrionalis|Pmanderson felt he had to bring you in to this discussion. From your user:talk page;

Skyemoor has now pushed his "Jefferson founded the Republican Party" phase to the point of giving Jefferson and Lincoln the same entry on the List of United States Presidents. (diff). He also declares that Lincoln was a radical abolitionist. (diff.) After squabbling with him on DRP, I don't think he'll listen to me; would you have a word with him? Septentrionalis 04:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I admire your tenacity in dealing with him, though I don't think he holds me in any higher regard -- I've just tried to avoid getting caught up in aggravating disputes. I noticed that edit to List of United States Presidents and was about to revert it when I saw that you already had done so. I'll try to drop a line if I see things getting out of hand. older ≠ wiser 04:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

To state that Jefferson and Madison 'belonged' to a "Democratic-Republican" party is ill-founded revisionism; contemporary historians are drawing away from labeling them as such, preferring "republicans", "Jeffersonian Republicans", or "Republicans" (see sources below). And it is likely that most of us were taught that Hamilton held his fire in his duel with Burr; that's "commonly known" to some, though we certainly know better now. A recent review of history textbooks labels Jefferson and Madison with the now preferred names above, so they are certainly not "commonly known" to be DR. And denigrating other editors by "snobbish historians and pedants" is a rhetorical tool propagandists call poisoning the well; it certainly begins to cross the line drawn by WP:Civility. If you insist on lineage with a later party of a different name, then why aren't they simply assigned to the Democratic Party?

Secondary Sources:

Dr. Rjensen checked 8 current college US history textbooks that have online tables of contents 1 uses Dem-Rep (see #3) 6 use Republican 1 uses Jeffersonians (#6)

1 Tindall-Shi (W W Norton) “Republican Party” http://www.wwnorton.com/college/titles/history/usa6/TOC.pdf

Longman: http://www.ablongman.com/catalog/academic/discipline/0,,72158,00.html

2 Mark C. Carnes, and John A. Garraty,

ch 5 has section Federalists and Republicans: The Rise of Political Parties.

3 Jones: Created Equal

ch 9. Revolutionary Legacies, 1789—1803. Competing Political Visions in the New Nation. Federalism and Democratic-Republicanism in Action.

4 Gary Nash American People

ch 8 student guide Controversy between Federalist supporters of the national government and the emerging Jeffersonian Republican opposition first erupted over domestic policies designed to stabilize the nation's finances and promote its economic development. Those policies revealed deep-seated conflicts between economic interests and raised urgent questions of how the new constitution should be interpreted

5 Divine, Am Past & Present

ch 8 = Republican Ascendancy: The Jeffersonian Vision.

6 Martin, Concise History.. "Jeffersonians"

from Bedford St Martin http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/history/bcs/index.html

7 Henretta America’ History (Bedford) ch 7/

Jefferson's Agrarian Vision Hamilton's financial programs divided the Federalists into two irreconcilable political parties and led to the emergence of the Republicans, a group headed by Madison and Jefferson.

8 Roark American Promise (Bedford)

Republicans in Power 1800-1824 http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/roark/pages/bcs-main.asp?v=&s=09000&n=00010&i=09010.00&o=

Hence, the textbooks vote is 7-1 against D-R and 6-2 in favor of Republicans.

Primary Sources: (There are many more references than these, but they will provide an example)

Thomas Jefferson to President Washington, May 23, 1792 "The republican party, who wish to preserve the government in it's present form, are fewer in number. They are fewer even when joined by the two, three, or half dozen anti-federalists,..."
James Madison to Thomas Jefferson, March 2, 1794. "I see by a paper of last evening that even in New York a meeting of the people has taken place, at the instance of the Republican party, and that a committee is appointed for the like purpose."
James Madison to William Hayward, March 21, 1809. Address to the Republicans of Talbot Co. Maryland
Thomas Jefferson to John Melish, January 13, 1813. "The party called republican is steadily for the support of the present constitution"
James Madison to Baltimore Republican Committee, April 22, 1815.

There are certainly times when correspondence to some local republican chapters used the term Democratic Republican; my point is the term used at the national level is overwhelmingly "Republican" or "republican" until well after 1810. If it's good enough for history textbooks, it should be good enough for us. Skyemoor 01:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tyler/Johnson coloring

Johnson and Tyler were both Democrats, despite being elected as running mates to candidates of the opposite party. They should be treated similiarly -- either Tyler should get the Dem coloring or Johnson the Republican. Personally, I think it should be made clear that Tyler wasn't a Whig. --Jfruh (talk) 15:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, after reading the John Tyler article, I see now that the situation is a bit more complicated. Tyler was part of the Democratic Party in the 1820s but broke with Jackson and joined the new Whig party, who nominated him as veep ... but then as President clashed with Congressional Whigs and was expelled from the party within months of his inauguration. He didn't rejoin the Democrats -- apparently he became known as "the man without a party". Not sure what his coloring should be -- grey like Washington's? Or leave it as is? I have expanded the footnote about him a bit though. --Jfruh (talk) 17:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eight Missing Presidents

Hey, someone was sleeping when they wrote this article...THEY LEFT OUT EIGHT PRESIDENTS
John Hanson (1781-82)
Elias Boudinot (1782-83)
Thomas Mifflin (1783-84)
Richard Henry Lee (1784-85)
John Hancock (1785-86)
Nathan Gorman (1786-87)
Arthur St. Clair (1787-88)
Cyrus Griffin (1788-89)

Please make sure they get added to the list.

63.17.72.10 03:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

To whoever deleted the above as nonsense: these guys were the head of state of the US under the Articles of Confederation. Whether or not they should be here is debatable, as the office was much different than the current presidency. I would say they should be left out, as we already link to them under President of the Continental Congress. But the suggestion isn't "nonsense" worthy of deletion from the talk page. --Jfruh (talk) 21:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Since they were not titled President of th United States (they were prsidents of Congress IIRC) they are (almost?) never counted in such lists. Eluchil404 17:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

According to the article linked to above:

The formal title of “President of the United States, in Congress Assembled” was often shortened to simply “President of the United States”.

--Jfruh (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Technically, those guys were not "head of state," they were head of government (like a prime minister). Political scientists tell us there is a difference.

Well, so who was the head of state then? Such an question is usually answered by determining who accredits ambassadors, which I assume the US did exchange during the Confederation period... --Jfruh (talk) 14:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

A quick Google search turned up one claim that the President of Congress did accredit and receive ambassadors and ministers, although I haven't verified this against the records at the National Archives, but I still don't think that means these Presidents should be included in this list.

At least one of the Presidents' names in the list at the beginning of the page is spelled incorrectly, that being Nathaniel Gorham, who also had the important post of Chairman of the Committee of the Whole of the Constitutional Convention. Newyorkbrad 03:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Occupations

Perhaps it would be interesting to list the (pre-Presidential) occupations of each of the Presidents. takethemud 17:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)takethemud

[edit] Term expiration (March 3 vs. March 4)

I have modified the table to reflect that the terms of Presidents before adoption of the 20th Amendment expired at noon on March 4, rather than on March 3. I believe this has been slightly controversial in the past but I have verified the March 4 date with evidence including the fact that numerous presidents exercised the powers of their office (including signing legislation) on the morning of March 4 before the inauguration. If anyone wants me to post more specific evidence I'd be glad to do so. Newyorkbrad 22:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoa! Not so fast. If you're going to do this here, don't go changing every Congressman's dates, too. (see Frederick H. Gillett). There are many sources which indicate that Congressmen's terms ending March 3. Please don't change more until this is resolved!!! —Markles 00:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree to change no more dates or until there is a consensus. I'm particularly glad to discuss with you as, having taken a look at your talk page and contribs while posting this answer, you obviously have a substantial investment in the congressional and presidential articles, so I'm glad to discuss in as much detail as you like.

There is pretty clear documentary evidence that until the Twentieth Amendment was passed in the 1930's, presidential and congressional terms expired at noon on March 4th. Nor was this just a theoretical issue; the outgoing Congress and President routinely exercised their powers on the morning of March 4th in odd-numbered years.

The lame-duck congressional session that began in December of each even-numbered year frequently went down to the wire and saw Congress meeting on the morning of March 4. I have here in my office the Congressional Record that includes March 4, 1917 (I am doing an article on some legislation that passed in the 64th Congress, 2d session and found an ex-library set of the Record for that session cheap on Amazon). The Senate was in session on the morning of March 4, 1917 -- even though it was a Sunday -- continuing in session from the previous day (there was a filibuster in progress concerning arming of U.S. merchant ships traveling to Europe). The Senate continued in session right until 12:00 noon, when the proceedings read:

"The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator will please suspend. The hour of 12 o'clock noon having arrived, under the Constitution of the United States I now declare the Senate of the United States adjourned sine die." (54 Cong. Rec. 5020)

The House was also in session on March 4, 1917, until 12 noon, when the proceedings read:

"The SPEAKER. The hour of 12 o'clock having arrived, under the Constitution I declare the House in the Sixty-fourth Congress adjourned sine die. God bless you all. [Applause.]" (54 Cong. Rec. 5033)

Meanwhile, the President was signing bills into law, also on the morning of March 4 (see 54 Cong. Rec. 5032). This is not unique to 1917; a Google search for "Act of March 4" (use the quotes) will turn up numerous statutes that became law on March 4 of a given odd-numbered year (e.g., Act of March 4, 1923), and certainly were signed on the last day of the outgoing congress rather than the first day of the incoming one.

I was in a library the other day and verified that the same thing happened in many other Congresses. See also the additional example with a 19th-century link that another user I've been discussing this posted at User_talk:DLJessup. The evidence I posted persuaded this user who was previously as committed to the March 3rd date as anyone.

By way of additional detail, there is a room in the Capitol building off the Senate chamber called the President's Room, which was formerly used for presidential bill signings, particularly in the last days of the session through the morning of March 4. See for example here. This custom continued right through the 1930's as is reflected in this interesting article from Time from 1933.

I hope this is responsive and would be glad to have the benefit of your thoughts or any counter-evidence. Regards, Newyorkbrad 01:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. March 4th, it is. Carry on, then! —Markles 01:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to nail this down:

From the Senate Report on Presidential terms: From 1789 through 1937, presidential and vice presidential terms ended on March 4 of every year following a presidential election, a date set by the Second Congress.
From Hind's House Precedents §6694-8. §6725 ftnote: On the 3d of March, 1851, Mr. Stephens offered a resolution to test this question, and on the ruling of Speaker Cobb it was decided that the Congress expired at noon on the 4th of March; which ruling has been in effect ever since. (6697)
Congress also adjourned just before noon, March 4, 1921; see Talk: Woodrow Wilson for an extended quote.
Herbert Hoover was consulted about the bank closures in New York and Illinois on the morning of March 4, 1933, and decided not to act. Septentrionalis 19:14, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI, "March 3" is the correct day for the expiration of terms of Congressmen and Senators. The office of the clerk of the House has stated that the March 3 date is correct for the Congresses. In an email from them:

"As earlier stated, the legislative day of March 3rd as defined by Hinds does not end until 12 noon on March 4th. The calendar day of March 3rd or 4th does not impact the legislative day. A legislative day may extend over multiple calendar days. Therefore, the Biographical Directory is correct.

Office of History and Preservation

Office of the Clerk

U.S. House of Representatives"

--tomf688 (talk - email) 01:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a proposal to go by (artificial) legislative day, rather than actual calendar day. I oppose it as misleading and leading to error. The Congressional Record may count March 3 as ending at noon, March 4 (as this e-mail says); but that is no reason we should. Septentrionalis 01:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Septentrionalis (and I will look for some additional evidence). The "legislative day" probably means little to the average user. As important, the noon deadline is real -- at 12:00 noon, the Presiding Officer said "this Congress is over" and everyone went home -- if they were just playing games with legislative days they could have continued past noon -- so 12:00 noon was recognized as the real, constitutional deadline.

N.B.: I sense the beginning of an "edit war" here. No issue is worth feuding over and certainly not this one. I'll see if I can bring more evidence to bear. People attentive enough to such subtleties as this one should be friends. :) Regards to all, Newyorkbrad 01:45, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would not go so far; but whatever issues may be worth feuding over, this is not one of them. Septentrionalis 16:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The historical records of Congress (at least the records for the early Congresses available online at the LOC) pretty consistently describe the last session of the previous Congress as being the day before the next Congress began. I don't see any basis for saying otherwise based on speculative deductions. older ≠ wiser 22:06, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

As indicated above, I've seen issues of the Congressional Record indicating that the House and Senate from the lame-duck Congress actually met on the morning of March 4th. I've got one sitting next to me right now, which I've quoted above. So it's not a matter of speculation. Newyorkbrad 22:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And the years concerned were 1917 and 1921 (see the report on Talk:Woodrow Wilson), which are likely to have had busier short terms than, say, 1825. It is plausible that the custom of ending the short term at noon March 4 developed quite late; the ruling on the subject was in 1851. Before that, the question is likely to have been in doubt. Septentrionalis 23:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

But is it an issue "in doubt" if no-one seems to really be thinking about it? There's some discussion of this at Talk:Herbert Hoover#March 4, 1933 but in summary it's wrong to automatically assume that present day concerns about precision and ensuring that the office is always exercised even for a couple of hours whilst the President is undergoing surgery were concerns that existed in previous years. On the bills issue:

Signing bills at the last minute sounds to me like avoiding the messy constitutional question of the status of bills that remain unsigned within the ten day period when a new President takes office.

Perhaps by the 1920s and 1930s a habit had developed that power passed from one President to the next with the taking of the oath but that doesn't necessarily mean it was set in constitutional and legal stone. In the small hours of March 4th 1933 Hoover appears to be the first outgoing President to actually exercise powers between bedtime on March 3rd and the inauguration. (Well in his case it was a decision not to exercise them to close banks in a crisis on the grounds that state governors had taken action and so a national closing was not needed, not that FDR was now President.) Remember a lot of other matters were never really clarified in the original Constitution - for instance what were the rules for detemining contentious electoral votes, if the President died/resigned/was incapacitated did the Vice President become President or just act as President, how was a replacement Vice President to be selected, how was a President to be declared incapacicated... One that is relevant here is the question of whether a person only became President when they'd taken the oath - see David Rice Atchison. Timrollpickering 15:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interactive references

I installed linking references, from WP:FOOT. If anybody really dislikes them, feel free to revert. Septentrionalis 19:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism? Bush #41, 43

Columns "Took Office" and "Left Office", respectively

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