Talk:List of Polish Jews

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[edit] Polish and Belarussian Jews?

Maybe it makes sense to rename the article to "List of Polish and Belarusian Jews"? I looked at the list, and it seems at least a quarter of those listed were from Belarus.

For example, let's look at the first block (politicians):

-- rydel 23:34, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but that doesn't make much sense to me. There was no Belarus back then (sad but true) and they were either born in Russia or in Poland, not in Belarus. Perhaps a separate list could be in place, but I don't like the renaming idea. Also:
  • David Ben-Gurion was born in Płońsk, not Pińsk (25 km from Warsaw, which hardly makes him a Belarusian)
  • Menachem Begin was born in Brest, a town that used to be at the crossings, but back then was an entirely Russian fortress city.
  • Jakub Berman - born in Warsaw
  • Bronisław Geremek - born in Warsaw... and so on.
--[[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:26, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
Dear [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]], I think you don't read carefully. Not paying any attention at all. I took the first list (of politicians) and noted next that 3 out of 8 were actually born in Belarus. -- rydel 13:16, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How's this for a solution?

  • I've removed Begin, since he was born in Russian Belarus, not Poland.
  • I've kept Peres and Shamir since they were born in Polish Belarus and are frequently described as Polish.
  • I've added all three to the Belarus section in List of East European Jews.

Udzu 21:27, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)


There can be "shared" names, because Belarus was part of Commonwealth, and it was just one nation back then. Not in 100% (some was seeing them rather as a Lithuanians, etc), but it wasn't something strange back then.

-- mg


I have suggestion regarding nationality - may be it would be wise to look at this what those people have done and where there placed their bounds? In case of Begin it is quite clear that he felt ties with Poland rather that with Russia or Belarus (I think he could hardly imagine Belarus as 'his' country). Same is with all those people that came to Israel with Polish Army where they decidet to stay in Israel. I think also some other names are misplaced (no strong ties with Poland - whenever there were born or their parrents were born in Poland).

--WD

More names

[edit] members of the Ministry of Public Security 1944-1956

  • Jakub Berman, Joseph Stalin's right hand in Poland between 1944 and 1953
  • col. Julia Brystigerowa, alias Bloody Luna, head of the Department V — Religious political and social organizations
  • Anatol Fejgin, head of the Special Bureau
  • Adam Humer
  • Oskar Karliner, chairperson of the military tribunal in Poland
  • Mieczysław Mietkowski, Mojżesz Bobrowicki 2nd vice-minister of MPS
  • Salomon Morel, commandant of the Stalinist-era labor camp in Poland in 1946
  • Helena Wolinska-Brus, former Stalinist military prosecutor from Poland
  • Julian Polan-Haraschin, chairperson of the military tribunal in Cracow
  • Roman Romkowski, Natan Grinszpan-Kikiel 1st vice-minister of MPS
  • Józef Różański, Josef Goldberg - head of the Department of Investigations
  • Leon Rubinstein, — head of the Department II - Operative Technology and records
  • Józef Światło, Izaak Fleichfarb - Lieutenant Colonel
  • Roman Zambrowski real name Rubin Nussbaum

[edit] "Jewish father", "Jewish mother"

I recently deleted several incidences of these phrases, under the probably erronous impression that they were part of a vandal attack. If so I apologise to the (anon) editor for my use of the word "vandalism". They have since been partly reinstated and then deleted again. Possibly this may be because it's not immediately clear what the meaning of these phrases is; they look a bit odd alongside "author", "mathematician" etc, as if "Jewish mother" was someone's profession or claim to fame. Perhaps it would be good to have a note at the top of the list specifying what counts as a Polish Jew, both in terms of geographical origin and parentage? For example, having only a Jewish father might mean under some definitions that someone was not strictly speaking Jewish, I imagine? Apologies again for any confusion or unnecessary controversy caused. Flapdragon 21:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I support the continued indication of "Jewish father" (or in my rephrasing, father Jewish -- see my new section, below). The technical definition of an individual's "being Jewish" according to the maternal lineage is a religious (halachic) distinction, and for the purposes of this list, I'd say there's a justifiable consideration to an individual's Jewish identity on a cultural basis, e.g. having been raised in a secular Jewish (by affiliation) family. Deborahjay 23:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish? In the List?

Pleas add to the list or answer me

see also: talk:List of Jews

* Grażyna Bacewicz no sources to suggest Judaism, though no sources state her religion period. still, doubt it

* Eduard Strasburger German Lutheran
(Germanised and Lutheran-converted Jewish descnedant? Sheynh.; He married with Julja Wertheim)

Jewish?

*Krystian Zimerman Christian

--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 4 July 2005 02:52 (UTC)

Also:

  • Artur Rodzinski Catholic household (though could be a convert)
  • Casimir Funk A Polishized German, but no evidence for Jewish ancestry ( Thank You. I am part of the Funk Family, and Casimir was not of the Jewish faith, despite the Jewish Faith making claims to him ! )
  • Bronisław Geremek Jewish ancestry?
  • Tamara de Lempicka Jewish mother too
Thank you! --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 04:47, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
Kazimierz Funk was Jewish. see [3]. Jerzy Neyman, Glier, Samuel Dickstein also. --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, Geremek once or twice admitted having some distant Jewish roots. But his case is as complicated as hundreds of others as basically every second Polish family has got some Jewish roots, just like German, Ukrainian or Lithuanian... Halibutt 13:06, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Warsaw, Poland. BTW, he's a Warsaw Ghetto survivor. Halibutt 14:55, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you! --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 18:53, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
(-.-) [4] [5] [6] --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I meant Geremek, not Hoffmann :) Halibutt 12:15, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
  • As to Einhorn, the Polish wiki article claims that he was a Częstochowa ghetto survivor and was also in the Hasag-Pelcery lager inmate. Halibutt 15:10, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I cannot see any Jewish doctors in your list. But really there are many... --jmak 12:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed solution to "Jewish father/mother"

To avoid the awkward construction of the parenthetical "Jewish mother", etc., please note my revision: slightly rephrasing plus italicizing. Deborahjay 23:17, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

ADDENDUM: On second thought, I dropped the italics, thinking them perhaps not compatible with style here. They can always be restored to previous version, though. I don't wish to make this decision alone. Deborahjay 04:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński

Recent edits have shown some disagreement about whether Polish poet Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński belongs on this List of Polish Jews. My own reading knowledge of Polish is limited to a few dozen words, but a native-born Polish colleague in my department, who holds a Master's degree (in history, I believe) from a Polish university, may be able to help us here. I'll follow up next week after we return to the office. Deborahjay 05:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've read quite much on and by Baczyński, but it's the first time I hear he might've been Jewish. On the other hand there was an article in Midrasz (Polish-language Jewish monthly) some time ago (found an on-line version here), whose author argued that Baczyński's mother might have Jewish roots. On the other hand his father might have had German roots, then why not list him as German as well? Come on, every third person in Poland has some Jewish roots, just like every fourth person in Israel has some Polish blood. Does it mean that we should basically combine the list of Poles and List of Jews? //Halibutt 12:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Update: My Polish informant is searching for a citation regarding Baczyński's mother being Jewish, and I'll provide this if/when it becomes available.
If unsolicited verbal testimony counts for anything: she was also quite emphatic that among Poles, he's considered a Polish poet, not a Jewish poet. So unless he was known to have been raised Jewish and/or to have embraced a Jewish identity (secular, cultural, or otherwise, not necessarily practicing the religion), I'm inclined to agree, regardless of "proof of Jewish parentage," thus arguing for removal from this list.-- Deborahjay 00:27, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a Polish whitewash. [7] discusses how "the official constructions of Krzysztof Kamil Baczynski and Tadeusz Rózewicz have been at least rhetorically cleansed of all Jewish traces" to promote Polish identity.--Brownlee 10:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Stapling a Jewish identity on Krzysztof Kamil Baczynski is, quite obviously, very innappropriate despite any attempts by the "Polish government" (roll) to continue to hide his Jewish ancestors. Unless someone has Jewish identity, it should be totally irrelevant what his grandmother's religion was. I agree with User:Halibutt's comment above. 65.11.245.190 01:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I am bewildered by this anon editor's actions. A source has been given that Balthus had a Jewish mother, so there is no reason for his removal. A source has been given that Baczynski is Jewish enough for this list, so there is no reason for his removal.--Brownlee 09:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
You do realize your jewprom source is a mirror of wikipedia, right? The fact that Balthus denied having Jewish ancestry, and didn't practice Judaism really doesn't help his case. [8] It states that his father was Polish Catholic Gentry and his mother a Polish immigrant to France who was descended from the Russian Romanovs (who we know were Christians). Her father supposedly was a cantor which suggests through at least her paternal ancestry, there was Jewish practice. Nonetheless, Balthus' parents were Christians, as was Balthus himself - in fact, an ardent Catholic, he called the pope his "soul mate", and he denied his mother was Jewish throughtout his life. To be honest, who's a better source than Balthus himself? We don't know the details, and even if his mother did have significant Jewish ancestry..if he wishes not to be called Jewish then so be it. 70.146.75.166 12:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Jewprom is not a Wikipedia mirror. There is a list of sources it uses. And WP:AUTO. As for Amazon, just because it sells biographies doesn't mean that everything it says is an authorised biography. --20.138.246.89 15:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh..it copies and pastes lists from wikipedia, and even has its pages link to it. It's virtually a complete mirror aside from a few additions from jinfo.org. Look at the Nobel Prize format right in the front. The Balthus material is straight from wikipedia, as none of the other sources it lists says anything about Jewish artists. 72.144.161.165 19:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Re Balthus, here are two independent sources explicitly stating that his mother was Jewish: [9], [10].
  • Re Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, I don't see how the given source ([11]) necessarily implies Jewish heritage: the fact that both Baczyński and Różewicz's work was cleansed of Jewish traces doesn't mean that the two writers were themselves Jewish. Lots of pre-Holocaust Polish literature dealt with Jewish issues.
Udzu 14:17, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Yea, I mean, accordingly with whats been said here, it would be that dreaded original research >:( to assume that "cleansed of all Jewish traces" would mean Baczynski was Jewish. Plus we have a lot of sources saying he was Baptised Catholic. Even this one saying he was born to "Christian parentage": [12] What his grandmother, or great-grandmother practiced is pretty much void of any relevance concerning this list. And as for Balthus, see above. 72.144.161.216 00:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Balthus

Regarding Balthus, have you actually read your link [13]?! It most certainly does not say that his mother was descended from the Romanovs. It says that despite him claiming she was, she was actually the Polish daughter of a cantor. It even indicates that she was Jewish:

"Both his parents were Polish émigrés and painters, which for Balthus was not enough. He said his mother was descended from the Russian Romanovs; she was the daughter of a cantor. And although he ceaselessly advertised that she had taken Rainer Maria Rilke as a lover, which was true, he denied that she was Jewish to the end of his life."

—Holland Cotter, New York Times

The link doesn't say "despite" anywhere as you have implied. Who disproved his mother was descended from the Romanovs exactly? If Balthus said his mother was descended from the Russian Romanovs and denied her Jewish ancestry, exactly how can we disprove him? It's very well possible she had some Jewish ancestry given her surname - a cantor father - etc but this is irrelevant to the matter. 72.144.136.114 16:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, we have provided two other reliable sources explicitly stating that his mother was Jewish. Denying this further without providing an explicit source stating otherwise is itself original research. Udzu 08:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
This isn't an article on Balthus' mother, though. You're tring to list Balthus himself, not his mother. You need a source that says Balthus was Jewish. Mad Jack 08:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Given that I didn't actually add him to the list, I don't need anything. I was just correcting a false statment on the discussion page. I gave up a long time ago trying to second-guess the flavour of the day regarding Who is a Jew?. Interestingly, the current approach seems to be ok with listing Kelly Osbourne, who is a quarter-Jewish, because some journalist dubiously described her as Jewish, but won't list someone born to Orthodox Jewish parents who isn't explicitly called Jewish, as that would constitute original research :-) Udzu 09:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm sure anyone born to Orthodox Jewish parents would be called Jewish (well, unless they became a nun or something, and even then they would be). Do you have an example? Mad Jack 16:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
"I was just correcting a false statement on the discussion page"
What was false? Balthus said his mother descended from the Russian Romanovs and where does it say she didn't? That's asserting that because his mother was said to have Jewish ancestry she can't have the Russian Romanov ancestry either? We're not here to accuse Balthus of lying. 72.144.136.114 16:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Read the quote carefully, especially the emphasised bits. Then use minimal common sense. If you still don't get it, then I give up. Udzu 08:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
The quote says that although Balthus said his mother was descended from the Romanovs, her father was a cantor. What's not to get? We can't say that Balthus was lying about what he said. That would constitute us knowing more about his mother than he did. What's hard to understand about that part? 72.144.183.250 19:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Mad Jack has missed the point. Wikipedia is not censored. It reports what reliable sources say; if there are reliable sources that someone's mother was Jewish, we shouldn't conceal the fact. I am aware of the unique policy on the List of British Jews, but there is no reason to apply it here. - Brownlee 15:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Final comment on Balthus. We have no sources that state that Balthus himself was Jewish, and we have conflicting reports on him having any Jewish ancestry. There's no way to prove Balthus was lying about his mother being Jewish. And besides, as he did not identify with an ethnic or religious ancestry, its somewhat irrelevant to keep him on here. 72.144.158.14 01:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an ethnic list, and in accordance with normal Wikipedia practice and usage we record people with Jewish parents, noting what the sources say. If you want to add a note saying that some sources dispute the source given, that's fair enough.--Newport 11:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewprom

While it is now irrelevant here, as other sources have been found for Balthus, it must be noted that Jewprom is not a Wikimirror. That is a precisely defined term; it is for sites like Answers.com, which contain complete copies of Wikipedia. To describe a site that merely offers links to Wikipedia as a Wikimirror violates WP:V and WP:NOR unless there is a source that says that it is a Wikimirror. There is no proof that Jewprom relied on Wikipedia for Balthus, and it is original research to assert that it did; it may well have used the sources now quoted here. --Brownlee 20:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

You're absolutely right that Jewprom is not a Wikimirror. However, I think we should try to avoid using it, as I'm not sure it satisfies WP:RS. It is a large list of names maintained by an anonymous editor, with no sources given. A quick glance spots some common mistakes, including both non-Jewish entries such as Milton S. Hershey and John James Sainsbury, and entries whose Jewish heritage is remoter than what is stated, such as George & Ben Cohen, Max Baer and Brad Ausmus. Udzu 22:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

In the precisely defined term, it's not a wikimirror because it uses other sources, that's true. This doesn't detract from the fact that a huge heap of it's information is copied and pasted from wikipedia. And no, we don't need sources saying "JewProm copied information from wikipedia" to know that. Plus, I doubt there's many references to jewprom anywhere. It seems to be equivalent to somebody's geocities page - from the looks of it maybe even a former wikipedia members'. Why I'm still discussing this...I don't know. Too chatty today ;) 72.144.161.216 00:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adam Mickiewicz

View the following WP:NPOV#Undue Weight, "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views."

Mickiewicz's mother 100% being Jewish is apparently just the view of whoever wrote that Jewish Encyclopedia entry, as it is disputed nearly everywhere else. We do not represent a minority view on the circumstance equivalently to the majority, which is a "debatable" Jewish ancestry. Furthermore, the only appropriate entry here would be Mickiewicz's mother and not Mickiewicz himself anyhow. Further attempts to add Mickiewicz to this list will be reverted. LaGrange 05:48, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia works from secondary sources in accordance with WP:NPOV and, where they contradict each other, editors do not usually seek to judge in order to reach a conclusion, but state the different point of view, so the reader can see what is being said in order to form their own judgement.-20.138.246.89 17:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Please view what was mentioned above. Thank you. LaGrange 03:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I did. Nobody is citing the Jewish Encyclopedia. The Encyclopaedia Judaica, a standard reference work, says that his mother was Jewish. Another source says that she probably (though not certainly) wasn't. There is no evidence that the view that his mother was Jewish is disputed nearly everywhere else or is a minority view, still less views that are held by a tiny minority.--20.138.246.89 09:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
That Jewish Encyclopedia - "Encyclopedia Judaica" (translation: Jewish Encyclopedia). Yes, it is a minority view as no other source states it unequivocally. You are thus holding one reference higher than all other by adding his mother to this list. There's no trouble finding a reference that says Albert Einstein is Jewish anywhere. It's going to be in every one of his biographies undoubtedly. And yet, there's not a single biography which states that Adam Mickiewicz, or rather, Adam Mickiewicz's mother was Jewish undoubtedly. Is this a view by a tiny minority? Perhaps, but thats harder to prove. Furthermore, you do not have a source that says Adam Mickiewicz is Jewish, but rather his mother, so practice what you preach. LaGrange 15:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

say " It does not help to confuse the Jewish Encyclopedia with the Encyclopedia Judaica; they are entirely different. I am not holding one source higher than any other; I am noting the existence of both sources that have been adduced.--20.138.246.89 16:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh God. This time you didn't even bother referring to what I typed. LaGrange 00:11, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I did, and I answered it. Please prove that the Encyclopaedia Judaica, a standard reference work, is no more than a small minority view, rather than relying on unsubstantiated assertions. And speaking of reading, please read the introduction to the article: "The following is a list of people with Polish-Jewish heritage. Note that the list includes people of Jewish faith, Ashkenazi culture and/or Jewish ancestry."--20.138.246.89 13:16, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:CITE. You're not citing anything about Mickiewicz, but rather Mickiewicz's mother. Hope you realize that otherwise it's WP:NOR violation to assume that Mickiewicz was Jewish because his mother was, even though that is in accordance with Jewish law. Anyway, it doesn't matter, neither would go on here. Like we've argued on List of Iberian Jews, we don't list people by the unproven possibilities of them having a Jewish relative. LaGrange 20:28, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read what I wrote. If this were a list of people who were Jewish, I would agree with you. However, this "is a list of people with Polish-Jewish heritage". Thus, since (according to an impeccable source) he had a Jewish mother, he belongs here. The List of Iberian Jews is no precedent, since the sources were not 100% unequivocal. True, one source has been cited that says that it is improbable that she was Jewish, but no source says unequivocally that she was not.--20.138.246.89 09:15, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

What the heading says is not relevant. Wikipedians do not define who counts as a Polish Jew, that is judged from outside references. If you want to make a list of people with possible Jewish mothers, that is where Mickiewicz would belong. His mother being Jewish is not 100% proven either similarly to the Iberians on List of Iberian Jews. This can be judged from all sources outside of Encyclopedia Judaica, which for some reason states it as a fact rather than a possibility, which it is fair to say could be an unconcious bias issue (the encyclopedia IS for Jewish subjects). What one place says does not hold dominance per WP:NPOV#Undue Weight to what every other place does, and this mode of evaluation referencing is perfectly allowed within WP:RS. Also "exceptional claims requires exceptional sources" per WP:RS. It is undoubtedly an exceptional claim to say Adam Mickiewicz was Jewish. Ask anybody on the Polish Encyclopedia if their national poet was Jewish. They'll be surprised to hear that info as it is in no way or form "common knowledge." Secondly, it is not ONE source that says his mother's Judaism is totally speculative/improbable/a rumor, it is many including "The Occult Underground" by James Webb, that article by Regina Grol [14] mentioned on this talk page, and Adam Mickiewicz - Poet of Poland by M. Kridl, in addition to the one foot-noted here by Weintraub. In fact, the majority of biographies don't even make mention of this claim, which makes one wonder. LaGrange 16:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

This makes no sense. The header says what the article is about. If the header said that it also included American-born Jews whose parents were Polish, such people would be included. This is not a question of "Who is a Polish Jew" but "What is the article about?" It makes no sense to say that the article by Regina Grol is not a good reference, then cite it. Nobody is giving undue weight to one source; it is being cited, with a note that it is not undisputed.--20.138.246.89 09:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Funny, where did I say Regina Grol was a good reference or for that matter, where did I cite it? I'm merely pointing out that many places don't say it unequivocally and since you apparently thought Regina Grol WAS a good reference, I pointed it out to you. We, as editors on wikipedia, not make "make up" definitions for things because, as everyone knows, thats original research. So List of Polish Jews cannot be whatever some user decides to put in the header, just like any other list can't do that and are being adjusted so that only people who honestly reflect the title can be placed there. However, there isn't much stopping you from making a list that would fit Mickiewicz, like List of people with possible Frankist mothers or something like that. As long as you can cite it as a possibility. LaGrange 05:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stanisław Lem!

He was not Jewish, only Polish!! don't be silly people

[edit] A specific symptom of Polish anti-Semitism

Polish nationalists create lists of Polish Jews (sometimes false) which include, first of all, politicians and social activists. However, there is ONE specific exception to this general principle: prominent Polish cultural figures (poets, writers, artists, musicians, etc.) who were Jewish (or Jewish ancestry), such as Adam Mickiewicz, Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński, Stanisław Lem, Teodor Parnicki, Tadeusz Kantor, Jan Kiepura, Henryk Wieniawski, and many others. Polish “true patriots” do not agree with these facts, so they permanently remove them from the Category: Polish Jews.

Dr Mibelz

Mibelz 11:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who belongs on a list such as this

As with all other lists on wikipedia, we can only put anybody on this list who fits the description of a Polish Jew. In other words, we're not going to redefine the list simply to add Americans like Alan Pakula and Geddy Lee. The primary view is that these people are Americans, not Polish Jews, despite their background. Much in the same way that actor George Clooney is viewed as an Irish-American not an Irishman, or author Kurt Vonnegut is a German-American and not a German.. For that reason we bother having a list of Polish-Americans in the first place. Just because this is a list of Polish Jews, doesn't make it separate from other lists with nationalities. I've asked on the TALK:List of Polish Americans for someone to come and explain. 141.213.212.42 12:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

A list is defined by its title not by the caption. List of Polish Jews will not be the singular exception to lists of nationalities to include Americans who were not viewed as Polish Jews before Americans. If you have a disagreement with such, please rename the list. 141.213.210.40 02:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a link to the appropriate WP policy.--20.138.246.89 11:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I have alrady contacted people working on List of Polish Americans to help come and explain. They have yet to respond. 141.213.210.40 13:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Besides, you seem to agree, at least in part, to the third opinion on TALK:List of South-East European Jews, and that opinion will be the same one given here if you went and asked for one on this topic. So why are you disagreeing with it now? Because this is a list of POLISH Jews and not GREEK Jews? This isn't a rhetorical question. I honestly want to know. You might be thinking differently and in which case, I might be inclined to agree. Simply because you seem to disagree with every edit I make doesn't mean it will always be mutual, so try to explain to me why you think its necessary for ALL people of ANY Polish-Jewish descent to be on this list too.141.213.210.40 15:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It's simple - this is a list of people of Polish-Jewish heritage; it has been for months and you've never dissented.--20.138.246.89 16:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Please show some respect and answer my questions. Otherwise, anyone reading this discussion will note it is one-sided. Why do you agree to not have Americans on a list of Greek Jews but refuse on a list of Polish Jews? The third opinion will be the same for all. There is a reason all lists of nationalities on wikipedia usually exclude Americans of ____ descent. 141.213.210.40 18:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates or no Dates?

Anybody want dates of birth and death by the names on this list? I'll just go with the majority on this one, but it looks really messy if its half and half. 141.213.210.40 16:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commenting

I was asked to comment and it's really very simple... it all depends on what the (reliable, as a must) source says about the person... I'd imagine that yes, in some cases there will be people who were not strictly speaking Polish nationals who were described as Polish Jews (I mean the people themselves, not their parents). But, for example, a list of "Sephardic Jews" would include people from all kinds of countries 'round the world, so it could be similar here. (Same thing for list of Polish-Americans, although I don't see much of a conflict there at the moment) Using the examples above, I don't think there are sources that say either Alan Pakula or Geddy Lee are Polish Jews, but I'm prepared to be proved wrong.... Mad Jack 19:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Discussions or even Comments on Reverts

The purpose of a page lock is to instigate a discussion on the changes that have been made rather than just implementing the changes. There have been explanations made and reasonings provided (WP:CITE notably) for all the edits that have been made on my part and absolutely none for User:Runcorn's reverts. If discussion does not follow, then his reverts are in my mind "vandalism" even if they are coming from an admin in opposition to an anon. There is no bureacratic hierarchy that would make Runcorn's edits more "valid" than mine. I'm not going to create an account just for the purpose of re-implementing these edits because that would not make them any more permanent to the potentially chauvinistic edits of User:Mibelz, who has deemed me a "maniac anti-semitist" apparently for removing his random source-less contributions that suggest people like Joe Lieberman are Polish politicians. There are only two alternatives to this. Either Runcorn and Mibelz discuss these edits and come to a consensus with me or the article stays locked from IP contributions forever, which it per wikipedia mission statement can not. 141.213.211.81 10:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The removal of people who are clearly within the scope of the article, namely "people with Polish-Jewish heritage... people of Jewish faith, Ashkenazi culture and/or Jewish ancestry", with no source that they do not meet these criteria, is a violation of WP:Point, since it is being done to try to change the scope of the article against the wishes of every other editor.--20.138.246.89 11:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
No, you need evidence that these people are Polish Jews, not just Jewish Americans. You specifically need to prove that they are considered "Polish Jews" as a dominant view, otherwise its just some person's opinion. You mean the comments above this one and the ones on TALK:List of South-East European Jews are not included from "every other editor"? 141.213.211.81 11:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not the List of South-East European Jews. This article is what it says it is. There is no consistent policy between the different lists, but we have to abide by the consensus of editors on each list unless and until there is an agreed Wikipedia policy.--20.138.246.89 16:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

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