Talk:List of Belgians

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on August 22, 2006. The result of the discussion was NO CONSENSUS TO DELETE.

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[edit] Possible vandalism?

Was there really a saint Conan O'Brian and saint Guy Smiley? Should we check the list for possible vandalism?

[edit] List of famous Belgians vs. list of Belgians I

Hi mav,

In Biographical listing they're all listed as "Famous....", not "List of famous.....". I've reverted the redirect. User:Renata (Sun's still shining....)

Biographical listing is ancient and needs to be updated. The current convention is to mark lists as being lists by have the string "list" in their title. In the future the software will sort encyclopedia articles from almanac-like articles (such as lists). But to do this the articles need to be correctly named. --mav

[edit] Tintin

it's never explicitly stated where tintin is from ...

Belgium of course :)

Seriously, can Tintin's nationality be ascertained? Is there an album that gives the smallest hint on this? The question is rather academic, but I am just curious. If he wasn't Belgian, what a great quiz question it would make... --Edcolins 22:33, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Natacha Atlas

Natacha Atlas is born in Belgium. I don't know if she Belgian. User:Ericd

[edit] List of famous Belgians vs. list of Belgians II

Why the move from "list of famous belgians" to "list of belgians" ? Do you want all 30,000,000 (or more) Belgians that ever existed be listed here ? Since I'm one of them, I'm tempted to list myself. Just to prove the absurdity of it. --FvdP 18:54 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)

User:MyRedDice moved it, I think - I think he's on a consistency drive. I don't think this page is badly named: following the logic of Recent deaths (see Talk:Recent deaths for the discussion), the "famous" is superfluous, because if they don't have some degree of fame or are not notable in some way, they shouldn't be in the Wikipedia anyway. Having said that, it's not something I feel strongly about - I just mention it to draw the paralell with Recent deaths - the name change there (it used to be Recent celebrity deaths) hasn't led to people adding their relatives or whatever. --Camembert
Your arguments are sound and I agree with you on "Recent deaths", which somehow does not strike me as as dangerous a title as "List of Belgians"; perhaps because it has no "list of" to make me think the article has to be exhaustive. I'm still dubitative on List of Belgians. But I don't feel too strongly on this either. Waiting for more reactions... --FvdP 19:29 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
Being one of your compatriots, I had the same thoughts as you, FvdP. It is true that every Belgian could be listed under "List of Belgians", but I suspect most Wikipedians possess some form of common sense not to do that. (The same goes for any other "List of [nationality]", of course.) If I were the one to call the shots around here I would have preferred to leave the "famous" in the title. But I don't think it's really that important. Either way suits me. D.D. 20:31 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
The title is list of Belgians, not exhaustive list of Belgians. There's no reason to assume that it should be universal. The reasons for the move are essentially the same for the changes to list of people by belief, which I discussed briefly on wikipedia talk:naming conventions. Consistency, linkability, and de-emphasising fame as the sole criterion for inclusion. Martin

[edit] Citizenship vs. birth criterion I

One might ask whether it makes sense to include pre-1830 personalities in this list. It seems ridiculous to categorize Jan van Eyck or Orlandus Lassus as "Belgians". Doing so is strictly speaking not NPOV. When Henri Pirenne traced the existence of the "Belgian nation" back to the Treaty of Verdun (843), there was clearly an ideological agenda behind this endeavor.

OTOH, the alternative (ie categorizing the likes of Van Eyck and Lassus as "Flemish") has numerous drawbacks. What is "Flanders"? Historically, Flanders included areas that are now French or Walloon. Rogier Van Der Weyden and Robert Campin are "Flemish Primitives", but they were active in Tournai, now a Walloon city. The already mentioned Lassus was a "(Franco-)Flemish polyphonist", but was born in Mons. The famous "French" painter Watteau was born in Valenciennes...

And what about somebody like Marguerite Yourcenar? She is only "Belgian" in virtue of the fact that she was born in Brussels, and can justly be claimed by the French as one of "their" authors. Many French speaking Belgian writers and artists have moved to Paris early in their career and acquired French citizenship. And nowadays, "our" best scientists work in the US. KS

RE: Pre-1830: I somewhat felt compelled to add a definition that can explain why some Wikipedians included 16th century personalities on the List of Swiss people. Docu 18:24 Mar 2, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Citizenship vs. birth criterion II

Discussion started on a user talk page (Edcolins's) and moved here

Regarding the List of Belgians article: you've removed Claude Lévi-Strauss and Liz Claiborne as non-Belgians, but isn't the same true for Audrey Hepburn? The first sentence says "people born in Belgium", but this clearly needs fixing as some of those listed weren't (e.g. Ilya Prigogine, Christian de Duve). -Udzu 13:38, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You are right Audrey Hepburn has never been Belgian, and should be removed from the List of Belgians. As for the introductory part "Notable people born in Belgium or in the provinces of present-day Belgium" it does not make sense to me. One does not become Belgian by being born on the Belgian territory (Belgium is not Ireland..). Needs fixing. An List of non-Belgian people born in Belgium might be funny though... --Edcolins 22:28, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion, the birth criterion ("born in Belgium or in the provinces/territory of present-day Belgium") was and remains the only objective criterion possible for drawing up a list of "Belgians". Belgium is not a classic nation-state. It only exists since 1830 and it's an artificial creation composed of different cultural/ethnic/linguistic groups. It's also a small country, so naturally many famous people born in Belgium made their careers abroad. Often it is difficult to establish whether they have kept their original nationality (e.g. Jean-Claude Van Damme). Moreover, until now it was always acceptable on Wikipedia to include the same people in several lists (e.g. Yourcenar is also in the list of French people). I thought the whole discussion about which people to include in the list of Belgians was settled, but apparently you have deemed it necessary to override the exisiting consensus. Maybe you should exlude all people born before 1830 while you're at it (Van Eyck, Lassus, etc.: the trouble is, if they're not Belgian, what are they?). You could also argue that Belgium is a geopolitical fiction and that there are no "Belgians". As far as I'm concerned, it's better to let this issue rest and leave the list as it is (was I mean). - Karl Stas

Alright maybe I was a little too quick on this (now I have seen the talk). Sorry about that, I did not mean to cause such an uproar. But I have to say that on reading the title "List of Belgians" I directly thought (without reading the then intro) that it was a list of Belgian citizens, period. So, I think this is really misleading, and I am fairly sure it will be misleading for many... A: (1) Jan van Eyck was Flemish not Belgian (Belgium did not exist then, it is by all means weird to put him without any more explanation in the list of Belgians), (2) Lassus was Franco-Flemish not Belgian. Why not putting a note explaining this after their name? About your theory on Belgium being an artificial creation, every country is, and I haven't seen a country being a natural creation...
Now my turn (thanks Udzu): what about Ilya_Prigogine and Christian de Duve then?--Edcolins 21:21, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
I think you will agree with me that the place of birth is almost always easier to establish than the actual citizenship of the person (all the more so because it can change). If citizenship is the criterion, we have to exclude all pre-1830 people and we still won't be sure about some of those we keep.
If we go for the birth criterion, this leaves two problems: what about the pre-1830 people and what about the "adopted" Belgians? I think we had solved the first problem by using the formula "people born in Belgium or in the provinces of present-day Belgium".
But you're right to point out that this formula doesn't apply to some people that were included (like Ilya Prigogine). I would suggest we keep the list as open as possible and include all people who had a strong link with what is now known as Belgium - either because they originated from there or because that's where they found a new home and did the things that made them famous. As I said before, it is possible to include the same person in two lists (the Yourcenar case).
The case of Audrey Hepburn is interesting. Her link with Belgium seems limited to what one might call the "accident" of birth. Neither of her parents were Belgian and she didn't grew up there. So she does appear a bit out of place in this list, although I'm not at all sure if she was American. In cases where the link is extremely tenuous, removal from the list might not be such a bad idea.
All nations are artificial creations - quite so, but there's a difference though. Belgium is not the product of centuries of nation-building like France, nor is it united by a common language.
You say Jan Van Eyck was "Flemish, not Belgian". Well, he was neither. It seems he was born in Maaseik, which is not part of the historical county of Flanders. You simply cannot project today's notions of Flanders, Belgium, Wallonia etc. back into time.
Saying that Lassus was (as a person) Franco-Flemish, that's absurd. The Franco-Flemish school of polyphonists is a concept from musical history. Most of the Franco-Flemish composers were born in Hainaut, i.e. in present-day Wallonia.
Clearly, creating some new lists of "Flemish people", "Walloon people" and so on won't make things less confusing! - KS
In order to avoid being misleading (which was my concern), and at the same time to insert Belgian people according to the "birth location" criterion (which was your concern), I tried to find a good compromise. What do you think of it? It seems self-explaining to me. Needs a little bit of work now to check whether no other entry should be italicized. --Edcolins 10:51, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Belgians?

Shouldn't all these people belong to a "Belgians" category, i.e. Category:Belgians? It would be a lot easier to maintain, and subcategories (i.e. "Belgian singers") could allow a more generally (in wiki terms) accepted list of belgians. Of course, categories wouldn't allow us to include the distinction between belgians by citizenship and by birth. Has this idea been brought up before? --Anthony Liekens 12:45, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional caracters

Who exactly is supposed to be in that category? belgian caracters or caracters created by belgian authors? i'm confused here, as both seem to be here... note: the same 'problem' arise in list of french people.. FiP 09:23, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I would say both important Belgian characters and characters created by Belgian authors to the extent that there is a certain amount of uncertainty about their nationality, e.g. Tintin, and provided comments are duly made. --Edcolins 20:58, Aug 2, 2004 (UTC)
shouldn't we split it into 2 (sub)categories then? (there's no uncertainty about the nationality of Tintin, he is belgian, no doubt about that ^^) FiP 00:59, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
See my last edit. Should resolve the issue... --Edcolins 21:53, Aug 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Criminals

I'm not convinced Ben Allal deserves a place among the most (in)famous Belgian criminals because of what happened in the last few days. Karl Stas 08:59, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Nordine Ben Allal" returns 753 hits on Google [1]. It deserves an article (whatever the ethical questions behind all the publicity, maybe exactly what the guy is looking for). --Edcolins 22:07, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

changed the Freddy Horion tag, he's not a serial killer, but a violent gangster, killing is not his goal, but just a means, it's collateral damage , he is not a psychopath who kills for kicks or because he is compelled ot kill , but instead he is a sociopath who doesn't care about life, and will kill if it stops him from achieving his goals ( robbing , stealing , not beeing caught )

[edit] Is NERO a Belgian architect?

I removed the entry "NERO" in the architect section. Anybody knows this Belgian architect? Google doesn't [2]. --Edcolins 19:46, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC) must have been a wrong category , Nero is a fictional comic book character by Marc Sleen i've readded it under fictional characters

[edit] Marc Wilmots

Should Marc Wilmots, former football player turned politician, be listed under Politicians? Although his political career does not seem to be very successful, I think he should be listed under this heading, because

  1. the same person may appear under several headings (as indicated in the introduction),
  2. he is one of the first Belgian sportmen turned politician (if not the first),
  3. he is one of the first Belgian senator who requested to resign for the Belgian Senate,
  4. Google returns 231 hits for ""Marc Wilmots" politician" [3] and 1310 hits for ""Marc Wilmots" senator" [4], and
  5. it does not hurt to add it under the "Politicians" heading.

What is your opinion? --Edcolins 09:58, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Wilmots never dit anything meaningful as a politician. He allegedly went into politics because he wanted to do something about sports policy, but apparently he "didn't know" that the competency over sports had been shifted to the Flemish and French Communities long ago. In the end, when he realised himself that he was just wasting his time in the Senate, he wanted to resign, but then he couldn't, because his party had no "suppléants" anymore and by-elections are impossible in Belgium.
Unless it is your ambition to list all Belgian senators (not a good idea IMHO), I see no reason why this "sénateur malgré lui" should be listed under the header "politicians" rather than other, more deserving colleagues. You will also note that the article is mostly about his football career. Karl Stas 09:39, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

Surely this article should be replaced by a set of categories, one for each section? Andy Mabbett 16:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tomas Van Der Heijden

Is this fellow a famous Belgian robber? Google returns 1 unrelated hit [5]. Please provide sources. Until them I removed it from the list. --Edcolins 08:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Van der Heijden was indeed a famous Belgian robber. Google gives me more than the one hit you say you got: (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned=&q=%22Tomas+Van+Der+Heijden%22&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web.) He should be re-added to the list.

[edit] Businessmen and economists

Hi, I'm new to this so I hope I'm doing this correctly, if not then my apologies. I've notice that Luc Vandevelde is not listed under the businessmen and Economists section. Just thought I'd mention him. He is listed on www.famousbelgians.net Many thanks

[edit] 1830

1830 is when Belgium was created. Anyone before that was not Belgian. I'm sorry we cannot ask Charlemagne anymore but I'm sure he would have disagreed to be put in this list. I suggest all italicized names are removed. You wouldn't put Nebuchadrezzar in a list of Iraqi people would you? Oh damn it, they did. Anyway, I think it's ridiculous to assign modern-day nationalities to historical figures. I'm sure Columbus didn't find any Dominicans when he landed at Hispaniola. Piet 22:48, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed unfortunate that Charlemagne never knew he was a Belgian.

Indeed! Think of all the fame he is missing. And he never had a burning, fiery furnace. Or joined his pals for a pow-wow over a pipe of peace. Guy 10:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
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