Talk:Lion (heraldry)

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Just wanted to say that there is no use for this article as we already have a heraldry article, which we could have just added some of this information to. In anycase, I would like to mention that unlike much of the rest of Western Europe, Germany does not associate itself with the lion much. The Tiger (under Nazi Germany) and leopard (before Nazi Germany and now) are/were the choice for some coat of arms in Germany. The eagle is by far the main animal that you will most often find in German heraldry, however. With this said, I took out the black panthers (leopards) that were mistaken for lions from the coat of arms of some German states and districts. I kept the coat of arms of Thuringia because it is a lion and I added other coat of arms from different nations and/or cities, states and districts just to make it a little more diverse. User:TheGoodSon

The only difference between lions and leopards in heraldry is their posture. —Tamfang 00:26, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

True enough. Leopards are often depicted as stalking (as seen here Baden-Württemberg) or in upright positions, while lions are usually just standing or rampant. User: TheGoodSon

[edit] how many examples?

I removed the UK arms because England and Scotland are also displayed separately (and more visibly!). If there are images of the crests only, those might be added.

Thuringia could also be dropped, as it is obviously derived from Hesse.

We probably don't really need so many examples of "a shield with a lion, supported by two lions", particularly at this size. —Tamfang 19:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the German question

User:Thegoodson writes:

• Baden Wurttemberg coat of arms is PANTHERS, not lions. ...

How do you tell the difference?

What's the German word for the monster (which cannot be mistaken for a lion) in the arms of Styria? In English it's a panther.

• Remember, leopards are the unofficial animal symbol of germany.

Remember? I've lived 45 years without ever hearing it before. We learn something every day!

• lions have no significance in germany, unlike much of western eur

And leopards have? How do you tell them apart? Anyway, so what? Mullets have (so far as I know) no special significance in Britain or France, where they appear most frequently in arms.

Not that I object to limiting the number of examples. —Tamfang 06:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Tamfang, I am German and have known this for quite a long time. The leopard (especially the black panther) has been associated with Germany for a long time. In Nazi Germany, the tiger replaced the leopard (for obvious reasons...tigers are biggers, more powerful and more fierce and thus more suitable for the horrible regime). After 1945, the tiger was replaced back to the leopard, which is, a "softer" version of the tiger. Many coat of arms in Germany that depict leopards sometimes look like lions, but in fact they are not. The eagle is the main animal, followed by the leopard and than the lion (not saying that lions aren't used, but just that they aren't as important as leopards). Tigers have become taboo because of their nazi association. Do you read German? If you do, I can refer you to a book on all this. User:TheGoodSon

I ask again and again: what is the difference between a lion and a leopard (in heraldry) other than the name? (Sadly no, I have never learned to read German.) —Tamfang 22:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Tamfang, there is a difference between lions and leopards in heraldry and symbolism. Lions are associated with justice, freedom, family, courage, honor and security. Leopards symbolize military might, ferocity, resistence, and powerful independence. Germany as a nation simply sybolizes themself with the eagle first and foremost by far and than the leopard. Each nation has different national animal and eagle and leopard are Germany's. Don't ask me why they chose it (and formerly the tiger) over the lion...they just did. User:TheGoodSon

(sigh) And is there any way to tell by LOOKING AT IT whether a given heraldic beast represents "justice, freedom, family, courage, honor and security" or "military might, ferocity, resistence, and powerful independence"? In English and French heraldry the only difference is posture. —Tamfang 05:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a new article about leopards in heraldry, see Leopard (heraldry). - GilliamJF 00:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It merely repeats what I already know: that a lion passant gardant is sometimes called a leopard. Can't see why it's a separate article. —Tamfang 06:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I got out Neubecker's Deutsch und Französisch für Heraldiker, a bilingual glossary. It's the only bilingual wordbook I have that does not separate the two vocabularies, so these entries appear together:

• Leopard – léopard; gelöwter L.: léopard lionné; natürlicher L.: panthère
• léopard – Leopard; hersehender, schreitender Löwe
• — lionné – gelöwter, (aufrechter) Leopard; hersehender (aufrechter) Löwe

Which implies that German blazon optionally follows French in calling a lion passant gardant a "leopard", though the analytic style as in English is also known. —Tamfang 06:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge suggestion

Instead of adding a leopard section into lion article, I propose to rename it into Heraldic beast which would contain both (and more) with proper redirects, of course. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 10:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

'Disagree because 'heraldic beast' would be far too ambiguous; it could encompass wyverns and gryphons and all sorts. In British heraldry, at least, the lion is more commonly used. Mon Vier 23:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)