Talk:Linear A
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In disambiguating Mapping, I just unlinked it from this page, since it didn't seem be being used in any technical sense. Certainly the use here doesn't match any of the technical sense on that page if it's allowed for a symbol to correspond to more than one sound (as certainly happens in some alphabets). Or (from another POV), Linear A may be a language, but it's not a formal language ^_^. Anyway, if it is being used in a technical sense, then please let me know -- or better yet, add this sense to the Mapping article! -- Toby 23:57 Jan 26, 2003 (UTC)
The article is a bit confused, as it talks about "this decipherment" without actually suggesting any decipherment. (And of course, no decipherments are currently given any credence by mainstream scholars.) -- B.Bryant 06:50 19 Jun 2003 (UTC)
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[edit] Linear?
Not being a linguist myself, I'm slightly curious as to why the languages (Linear A and Linear B) are called "Linear". I have read the Linear A and Linear B pages, but none of them explain why they are so named.
- See this image of the script and you'll understand why. ;-) http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~perlman/myth/images/linbtab.jpg Bogdan | Talk 18:52, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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- I don't get it. Because they're composed of lines of symbols? Because the symbols are composed of lines? I see some circles there. Many languages are composed of lines, afaik. But I am not a linguist either. Equally keen to have a good explanation in the article :-) -- Jon Dowland 15:32, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
There are no _languages_ called either Linear A or Linear B. They are _scripts_, which in theory could be used to write any language (with adaptation if necessary). The names are short for 'Linear script A' and 'linear script B', which is what Arthur Evans, the excavator of the palace at Knossos, called them. He dubbed these scripts as 'linear' in contrast to the other Cretan script he found which he called 'hieroglyphic'. They are 'linear' in that the symbols are composed of lines, including curved & circular lines, as opposed to the more pictographic 'hieroglyphic' symbols (these are NOT, of course, the same as Egyptian hieroglyphics). Evans noticed that tablets of a later date seem to display a different linear script from earlier ones. As he did not know the language (nobody at that time thought either would be Greek), he simply labeled them 'Linear script A' and 'Linear script B'. Simple as that - the names have no linguistic meaning. (Ray Brown http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Eteocretan/Eteocretan.html)
[edit] Moved from article page
As signed discussion entries are not allowed on the article page, I moved the following addition to the talk page: 217.81.77.103 16:24, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
In Ugarit-Forschungen 2001, published in memoriam of Cyrus Gordon, (a journal edited in Münster in Westfalen) the article "The First Inscription in Punic--Vowel Differences in Linear A and B" demonstrates how and why Linear A notates an archaic form of Phoenician. In the journal Kadmos, Zeitschrift für Vor- und Frühgriechische Epigraphik of 2002 and 2003 one can read how, thanks to the decipherment of Linear A mentioned above, the still older script of Cretan Hieroglyphic can now also be read (in respectively the articles "The Lotus Flower in Cretan Hieroglyphic" and "The Many Faces of jabu-Re and bini-Re"). In October 2004 the book A Luwian Letter to Nestor (Publications of the Henri Frankfort Foundation 14) will appear, in which it is demonstrated that the script on the Phaistos Disc is a 14th-century-BCE form of Cretan Hieroglyphic, its implication, of course, being that also the latter script basically contains a Luwian (South-Anatolian) dialect. Below the old page with the traditional point of view. To it should be added that Michael Ventris deciphered Linear B in 1952, the same year in which Yuri Knorosov (Leningrad) deciphered the Maya script -- and Hillary climbed the Mount Everest!--, that identical signs in Linear A and B differ in this respect that those in Linear B with the Indo-European (in this case Greek) syllabic values e and o mostly contain in Linear A the Semitic values i and u respectively, that by just reading them in this way the assumed mystery of Linear A has been solved, and that at Figeac (Lot, France) for June 2006 the opening is planned of a new museum with the decipherments of ancient scripts all over the world, which will be a large extension of the former, marvelous museum Champollion which will be incorporated in it. In 2003 the famous Hellenist A. Bartonek has published his Grammatik des mykenischen Griechisch, in which he praises the Linear A approach since 1972 by the undersigned, which in the NRC Handelsblad of 12 & 13 January 2001 the Dutch Hellenist Kees Ruygh and the Dutch Assyriologist Wilfred van Soldt have rejected completely. Jan Best, Amsterdam, The Netherlands (after reading the above articles and book, address of correspondence available via the editors of Ugarit-Forschungen and/or Kadmos)
[edit] category:Hellenic scripts
I don't think this article belongs to that category:
- This category should include all forms of writing Greek,
Linear A is considered not to be a form of Greek, although roughly the same script was later used for writing Greek in Linear B. Bogdan | Talk 18:51, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Moved from the article
- (...) although this comes in direct contrast with the fact that the Minoan and the Mycenaean civilizations share the same art, technology and architecture, which leads us safely to the conclusion that they must be one and the same, simply in a different phase; and since the Mycenaean civilization (which, as stated, seems to be an evolution of the Minoan) is known as Greek, then it is most safe to presume that the Linear A is an even more ancient Greek scripture, which agrees with Paul Faure's (and others') claims of the Linear A being a very early Greek scripture that was adapted in each case to the local dialect.
pseudo-scientific nonsense :-)
[edit] An external link
Anonymous user 212.205.99.178 keeps adding a link to http://www.ancientgr.com which is a pile of uh-uh... silly things. Actually it's a funny as hell gem, http://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_History/Eng/HELLENIC_LANGUAGE.htm <look at this.] :-) Bogdan | Talk 21:20, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV?
From the article:
[...]This is merely the continuation of failed attempts by Cyrus Gordon in finding connections between Minoan and West Semitic languages. His methodology, usually involving parsing texts at whim in order to compare the shards of Semitic words he imagined he saw, drew widespread criticism.[...]
[...]This is assuredly false[...]
Although the arguments may be valid, this needs to be rephrased to remove the strong wording. -- unsigned comment by 210.180.187.254, Dec 19
- I've made some edits, but if you have other concerns, feel free to address those as well. --Arcadian 14:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] A new page for minoan language necessary?
As far as I watched this page, it has grown larger and larger as more decipherment notes were added. Perhaps it would be wiser to start a new page on minoan language speculations, if the page continues to grow, filled with materials not sticktly linked to the Linear A writing system alone.
[edit] Inconsistency
One line says "Suspecting to mean" while the other "deciphered so far, with certainty" when refering to KU-RO. Which one is true ?
- KU-RO is perhaps the best-understood Linear A word. The meaning can be inferred from our knowledge of Linear A numerals. Lists often consist of names+number pairs, the names being mostly unintelligable; at the end, one would find the arithmetic sum of all numbers plus the word KU-RO. This makes it pretty clear that the KU-RO word must mean "sum, grand total". However, we do not know cleary whether the pronunciation is correct; the mapping of Linear B sound values (almost undisputed) to similar Linear A characters is a reasonable assumption, but cannot be proved correct.
- Take Greek uppercase characters as an example. If you read Greek text with Latin sound equivalents, you would be right in some cases, not far off in many others, but sometimes completely wrong.
[edit] Attribution
Since translationa are hypothetical, the attribution in sections "semple", "glossary" and "short glossary" is a must. `'mikka (t) 18:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Deity Attitributions Tenuous
I have a BA in Classics from Reed College, 1996. So, I realize that I'm no PhD and that I got my BA 10 years ago. But... I don't understand where the author of this article gets the notions of deity attributions of words. Some of the deities that the author suggests that certain words might "mean" don't even sound the same, Astaroth Yam, for example. Apart from the little sense we can make out of Linear A (which is what we're trying to do, here, so we can't use it as evidence -- that would be circulare logic) and some art, at least as of 1996, we know NOTHING about Minoan Religion. We don't know whether they were Polytheistic (which is likely, considering that most peoples around them were), anamistic, monotheistic or even if they had a religion (as unlikely as that seems). So, it also troubles me that the author says that certain "words" gleaned from Linear A might be deity names from foreign cultures. It particularly troubles me when people make claims like, "this word might be the name of the Minoan great goddess". We don't even know whether or not the Minoans HAD a concept of the great goddess.
I think one thing to separate here is what we actually know from what some have speculated. With all due respect, I also think that a lot of Great Goddess Theory people WANT there to have been matriarchs who worshipped the "Great Goddess" in prehistorical times SO badly that they'll do and say anything to hold on (such as jumping from a series of letters, which MIGHT be a certain string of phonemes, to the conclusion that it's some ancient name of their sacred "Great Goddess"). This theory was big several decades ago, but full of major problems (such as ommission of evidence). SEE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Matriarchal_Prehistory
I don't mean to offend, but I firmly believe in good scholarship and hope that people will try to remain logical and scholarly about this subject, rather than starting with something that people WANT to be true and trying to prove that it was. I'd therefore hope that we stick to what's actually known.
- Ivan Richmond
[edit] PA-DE
...divine name of an unknown god, appearing on Linear B tablets as well. A comparison to the Egyptian Ptah?
