Talk:Lindworm
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I don't like how the "Real Lindworms" section speaks in metaphor, with the actual meaning of the metaphor only being revealed by mousing-over the links. --220.237.67.125
- I agree. It's very fancyfull, but not right for an encyclopedia article. Also, are there any references concerning this connection between Dragons and Romans? If so, it would be very nice to see them. Otherwise, I think this bit should be removed. It is confusing. Tom 11:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I decided to be bold and removed the section about "Real lindworms", luckily it'll be preserved in the history. If anyone knows who the wikipedia user that has a list of funny articles is, please let me know. This should be added there. Very subtle, I like. Fabjan 08:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I had introduced the section, which is not supposed to be a joke, and if so, it is less of a joke than stories about dragons in general. I had neglected to look up and provide sources [1] for this interpretation, though. There are certainly elaborate theories linking the dragon-slayer Siegfried of the Nibelungenlied back to the historical figure of Arminius. Describing a marching Roman army as a giant armoured snake is not far-fetched, and there were centuries of oral tradition that could add to the picture before it was fixed in writings and drawings. It's certainly less ridiculous than comparing dragons to archetypal memories of dinosaurs, or even the possibility of a survival of some of these beasts until mankind appeared. Early humans had met mammoths, cave bears and other large fierce creatures, and were not very much impressed, it seems, as these are now extinct. Likely, dragons represent something really big that can not be handled by mere mortals. See also Godzilla as metaphor for atom bombs. --Matthead 16:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think the section could very well be reintroduced, if it is a verifiable theory: it sure sounds interesting. However, I think it should be clearly mentioned what it is about and that is (still) a theory, as well as providing sources. This can of course still be done in the spirit of the original edit, which was, indeed, amusing. Tom 16:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Stories of dragons are funny, yes, but it doesn't prevent an encyclopedia to describe these beliefs. I don't see what your section had to do with lindworms in particular, is this section in every article about types of dragons? Are there any sources describing this? I agree that it can be reintroduced, but with more explanation. There already is an article about Arminius. You had to mouse over or follow the links to see what the section was actually about. Fabjan 12:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I had introduced the section, which is not supposed to be a joke, and if so, it is less of a joke than stories about dragons in general. I had neglected to look up and provide sources [1] for this interpretation, though. There are certainly elaborate theories linking the dragon-slayer Siegfried of the Nibelungenlied back to the historical figure of Arminius. Describing a marching Roman army as a giant armoured snake is not far-fetched, and there were centuries of oral tradition that could add to the picture before it was fixed in writings and drawings. It's certainly less ridiculous than comparing dragons to archetypal memories of dinosaurs, or even the possibility of a survival of some of these beasts until mankind appeared. Early humans had met mammoths, cave bears and other large fierce creatures, and were not very much impressed, it seems, as these are now extinct. Likely, dragons represent something really big that can not be handled by mere mortals. See also Godzilla as metaphor for atom bombs. --Matthead 16:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I decided to be bold and removed the section about "Real lindworms", luckily it'll be preserved in the history. If anyone knows who the wikipedia user that has a list of funny articles is, please let me know. This should be added there. Very subtle, I like. Fabjan 08:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Of course it applies only to lindworm, or other germanic names that could be derived from the activities of Roman legions in northern Europe roughly 2000 years ago. The "theory" does not apply to earlier myths and sources as the bible, or other areas like China. But then, calling all these different legendary beasts "dragons" is oversimplyfing.
There are hardly any impressive or poisonous snakes in northern Europe, and why would a real tiny worm inspire a myth about a dangerous creature, if not as a metaphor for something that is much bigger and lethal? In the movie The 13th Warrior, the long line of warriors marching at night with torches is compared to a fire-breathing beast, too, if I recall correctly, so this idea is common nowadays. I have not seen a detailed discussion yet, though, but remarks about the "Arminius = dragonslayer" idea are common, see [2] and the link above. Probably, most scientists (historians, linguists) have more serious things to do than proving/disproving a possible real core behind a myth, so it is left to a few outside academia who show interest, while those who like the legend are not at all interested in it getting spoiled by dull historic reality. Due to migration in the first millenium, the Germanic saga could have spread quite far, including Britain, Spain, and developed to include other things. A similar, yet younger and quite opposite comparison is that of Saints killing dragons, a metaphor for the often violent Christianisation of pagans. --Matthead 14:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, I'm new here and I don't want to upset anyone already, I'm sorry if you feel I stepped on your toes. I don't know much about historical backgrounds for legends, and never really thought about it. I just thought people made stuff like this up to tell good stories. I see now what you mean and agree it could be of interest to people reading the article, but what about Wikipedia:No_original_research? And do other articles about mythological creatures tell anything about possible historical backgrounds? /Fabjan 16:14, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've provided some sources, so I dont think OR applies. Other mythological creatures might have their background in natural disasters or in conflicts among humans, too, I've seen remarks when browsing a few articles. --Matthead 17:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Go ahead and add the section again, but please make it clear that it's about romans and a possible background for the mythical beast. With all the links and such it really looked like an elaborate joke, but I liked it. --Fabjan 07:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think the section may be confusing to some, because it makes it seem that lindworms have been accepted as real creatures. There isn't any reference as to what the "very real serpents that threatened Germanic peoples" are. If it is referring to the activities of Roman legions, than it should clearly say so in the section.
- Well, be bold. The last sentence of the lead gives away a lot already, IMHO. Besides, a lindworm is just this, a "bending worm", an "ensnaring serpent". The more POV view is that the term only applies to a kind of dragons. --Matthead 16:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think the section may be confusing to some, because it makes it seem that lindworms have been accepted as real creatures. There isn't any reference as to what the "very real serpents that threatened Germanic peoples" are. If it is referring to the activities of Roman legions, than it should clearly say so in the section.
- Go ahead and add the section again, but please make it clear that it's about romans and a possible background for the mythical beast. With all the links and such it really looked like an elaborate joke, but I liked it. --Fabjan 07:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've provided some sources, so I dont think OR applies. Other mythological creatures might have their background in natural disasters or in conflicts among humans, too, I've seen remarks when browsing a few articles. --Matthead 17:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Real lindworms?
- In fact there were actual and very real "serpents" that threatened ancient Germanic peoples. It likely made a lasting impression on them which could have developed into Norse saga and myths about lindworms/dragons: these lindworms could grow much longer than any dinosaur known to modern science, and they were dwelling in dragon lairs of which remnants still can be seen today. They had small wings that did not quite enable them to fly, yet they could move quickly, leaving traces behind. The skin of the reptile was scaled and inpenetrable, and it could breath fire. Once, a huge lindworm crawling through the forests of Northern Germany was slain by a hero in an ambush. After literally bathing in its blood, the skin of the dragon made the hero's skin inpenetrable, and the dragon's treasure made him rich. Even centuries after the last dragons had been slain and their wisdom was lost, the fame of the hero was told in tales.
I removed the above false text. This is an encyclopedia, not a comic book. --Haldrik
