Talk:LewRockwell.com

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[edit] Criticism section

I am sure that we will eventually have more criticisms about LRC at some point. What do folks think about creating a "Criticism" section? Dick Clark 23:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

That's the usual custom. -Will Beback 23:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kinsella's notability

Those arguing that Kinsella is non-notable (and therefore not properly cited with regards to this dispute) should review this discussion: [1]. The community clearly voted to keep Kinsella's wiki article, thus validating my claim and the claims of others regarding his notability. The community has spoken, and Kinsella has been deemed notable. Dick Clark 17:22, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, having a quick look at that debate it's pretty clear that that vote was "no consensus to delete" rather than a clear "keep". --OpenToppedBus - Talk to the driver 17:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, the vote totals (by my hasty count) appear to be 19 to keep and 17 to delete with a few folks abstaining but still making some comment on the AfD. Nonetheless, Kinsella's article remains, and as such should be seen as fair game for linking from other articles if the link and the contextual information to the link are relevant to the article in question. Also, I would note that the admin (User:Eugene van der Pijll) who closed the AfD declared the result to be "Keep" not "No Consensus." Dick Clark 20:51, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
"Notability" is not a one-dimensional characteristic. Kinsella may be notable enough for a biography due to his legal writings but that does not mean that he is a notable source for every topic under the sun. It needs to be decided on a case-by-case basis, and the outcome of an AFD has no bearing on the determination. All that it says is that we should have a biography of him. -Will Beback 23:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Will, I am happy to agree with your above points. I have in the past (at Talk:Tom G. Palmer and elsewhere) tried to make the case for the inclusion of Kinsella's published opinion when relevant to the issue at hand. For this issue, where LRC is being criticized, it seems that Kinsella's notability (which is at least partly related to his published work at LRC) is pertinent to this particular issue (criticisms of the medium through which he is sometimes published). Kinsella is listed on this page as a "notable contributor" to LRC. It seems topical to note his answer to criticisms directed at an organization with which he is affiliated. Dick Clark 17:36, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
It'd be better not to say that "The Wikipedia community has decided Kinsella is notable, therefore his comments belong in this article, " as this is untrue. If you want to argue that Kinsella is notable in this context because he is a writer for LRC, then that makes logical sense. -Will Beback 21:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Will, thanks for your correction of my overly broad generalization above. I meant for my remarks to be regarding his notability for particular issues and not in some general sense. It doesn't follow, as you indicate, that simple notability (any instance of notability) equals a carte blanche to add citations to the subject in question on any and every wiki-article. I am indeed arguing that Kinsella's notability as related to this particular topic (also presumably Mises Institute, Lew Rockwell, and various areas within libertarian political philosophy and jurisprudence) is seemingly established, at least given the (admittedly shaky) precedent noted above. Dick Clark 21:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sam Francis

User:CMUAfroAmerStudiesKid claimed in his last edit summary that after searching through LRC I see that Francis is indeed published there. First of all, Kinsella's claim, even if false, would still be notable (and could be seen, if false, as indicative of some greater fault in Kinsella by readers). Second, would you be so kind as to cite a source? There are lots of blog comments on LRC that mention Francis, but I have been unable to find any writings by Sam Francis on LRC. Now, there are several articles that discuss Francis, but that isn't quite the same thing, is it? Please note where you saw the Francis article on LRC. Dick Clark 21:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The Kinsella comment is not a criticism so much as a correction. If he is wrong then it is not notable. Can't we find this out, one way or another? It should be easy enough to determine if Francis was ever in the LRC (assuming they don't purge their archives). -Will Beback 20:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Will, so far as I can tell there is nothing of Francis' on LRC. First off, he is not listed as a columnist here: [2]. Second, I am performing searches at LRC for "Sam Francis," and the only Francis-related material I can find there is:
  • A reply to a book review by Sam Francis, where Paul Gottfried describes Francis' review as a "sea of bile"
  • An essay that mentions Francis' passing (although this is not the primary thrust of the article)
  • Another article by Gottfried, this time friendlier than the last. It notes where Gottfried feels that he differs with Sam Francis.
  • This article briefly mentions Francis (while criticizing the form of an argument and comparing it to an argument previously made by Francis)
Other than the above, almost everything about Francis seems to be from blog comments by others, including Marcus Epstein (whom I know personally), something which Lew Rockwell doesn't bear responsibility for. Dick Clark 20:54, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I've linked to the Google search for LR.com and rewrote it to reflect that. If there's actual verification of his articles ever being hoested there, then they should be linked. I still think we could remove that entirely, but it might not hurt, for the sake of balance, to show that even the criticisms of the site haven't always been right.
Also, I don't know if it's the same person or not, but Buckley actually goes out of his way to note that he doesn't believe that Sabron is an anti-Semite. I rewrote that section to reflect the truth of the accusation. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 21:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
As an aside, LRC is responsible for what is published on LRC. This article is about LRC, so if contributors are publishing X, Y, or Z on LRC, then this is a relevant place to note it. I'm not sure that anything notable has ever been posted on LRC, but if so then it does not matter whether Lew Rockwell himself wrote it, it is still relevant to the website. -Will Beback 22:27, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree that anything published on LRC is the responsibility of LRC, but surely you wouldn't suggest that LRC is responsible for comments made on its blog by third parties, right? That is what I am referring to, not the actual content selected by Lew for the main page. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to argue that Lew as editor isn't responsible for what his columnists say, only that he isn't responsible for what unknown third parties say on his blog. Dick Clark 22:44, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that it fills the bill, but these postings [3][4] by Epstein do not appear to be comments by a non-involved member of the public. Instead they appear to be approved blog entries. -Will Beback 23:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, Epstein is listed as a columnist.[5] So his postings appear to be authorized, not comments from a "third party". However, Epstein is not Francis. Positive mentions of Francis are not the same as a Francis column. -Will Beback 23:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, it appears that Marcus Epstein is listed as a columnist of LRC[6], so I suppose the issue of his blog posts being authorized or not isn't quite so important given that his stuff has been posted on the higher-profile LRC main page. I will offer some of my personal knowledge about the blogs, and let you guys decide on this one. I am authorized to post on the Mises.org blog, and I assume that Lew uses the same software for the blog at LRC. All posts are automatically posted to the blog page upon submission by the blogger—there is no moderation mechanism (other than ex post facto moderation). Therefore, anything that Marcus Epstein posts to the blog at LRC has been vetted by his own eyes and whomever he asked for an opinion—that's it. Lew doesn't have to participate at all, although presumably he would revoke authorization for someone who was really getting out of hand (in his view). Dick Clark 23:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
This is all rather moot since the particular criticism we're discussing claims that LRC runs Francis articles, and none have been found. However, on the general principle, a blog is the sum of its contributions. If an entry is made and not removed then it can been assumed to be approved by the blog. Blogs are responsible for what they publish (less so if it is a third-party comment/reply). If the criticism were that "LRC columnist Epstein posts material sympathetic to Francis" then I think that'd be legitimate. But since no one has said that we're left empty-handed on the Francis front. Rather than take up space in the article with a rather meaningless back and forth over Francis, a non-contributor, I suggest we simply omit him from the Palmer criticism and drop the Kinsella correction. -Will Beback 23:33, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a reasonable (and headache-reducing) solution. Cheers, Dick Clark 23:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sobran & Anti-Semitism, IHR

Here's what William F. Buckley said on the matter: "What needs to be said first is that those who know him know that Sobran is not anti-Semitic....Those who know Joe Sobran know not only that he does not harbor ethnic prejudices, but that he regards such prejudice as sinful, despised by God, and therefore despised by man." You can read the full discussion here. Do not assert in the article that he is accused by WFB as being anti-semetic, it is incorrect and will be reverted. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 20:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Here's what IHR has to say about the Holocaust charges: "Detractors of the IHR have often mischaracterized it as a “Holocaust denial” organization. This smear is completely at variance with the facts. The Institute does not “deny the Holocaust.” Every responsible scholar of twentieth century history acknowledges the great catastrophe that befell European Jewry during World War II." You can read the full statement here. You can consider them to be worthless as an organization, you can accuse them yourself, but they do not claim as such, nor is it anything more than an accusation. NPOV, please, as POV edits will be reverted as well. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 21:20, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The Institute for Historical Review denies engaging in "Holocaust denial", but they admit engaging in "revision", which is the term preferred by many who substantially deny the Holocaust. Their denial is not widely accepted, from what I have seen. -Will Beback 21:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
And where do they say that? --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 22:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What I wrote to Badlydrawnjeff:

I take the charge of vandalism very seriously. You have been distorting the facts on the LewRockwell.com page. It's easy to find small exerpts to back up a certain POV, but the fact is that the IHR is a group which argues that the Holocaust was conducted on far lesser scale than we currently consider it to have occured at, and IHR also argues that the Holocaust wasn't meant to exterminate Jews but only to put them into camps. Sobran's comments about Jews, found in http://www.marwenmedia.com/articles_images/SobranJewishFaction.html make it clear he is an anti-semite. Please do not distort these facts anymore. --TheDookieMan 22:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)TheDookieMan

You have again accused me of vandalism falsely. Stop, and pay attention to WP:NPA. Your edits are POV and factually incorrect. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 22:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I removed the citaiton request tags because the criticism is attributed to Palmer. He is the source of his assertions, also found here:[7]. -Will Beback 22:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The citation requests should be restored. At no point in that source does he note that Buckley accused Sobran of anti-Semitism. Please edit this page with the facts in mind, this is getting insanely frustrating. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 22:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
If Palmer does not say that then we should delete it, not cite it. We are noting Palmer's criticism, not making our own. That said, Palmer has made many criticisms like this, interested parties may find other comments by him. Until that happens, we should just summarize the one link that we have, rather than extrapolating. -Will Beback 22:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
That's what my edits have been doing, and they were reverted as "vandalism." You may want to check the history and take a look at the version I put up there: [8]--badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 22:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I've made a fresh re-write, based on what Palmer says. -Will Beback 22:45, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Works perfectly for me. Thanks. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 23:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The most recent POV edit by Rogerman, however, does not. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 01:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's try not to get hung up on the minutiae. "Claims > notes > says". It's all just about the same thing. -Will Beback 12:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree on that, but it's fixed now, so no problem. --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEME?) 16:06, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other criticism

I see that David Horowitz's DiscoverTheNetwork.org has a lengthy critique of the LRC.[9] They cover different points than Palmer and we should probably summarize that too. Also, there are plenty of positive mentions of the blog and we should try to find a notable one for balance. -Will Beback 23:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contributors

Some of the names that are listed on this page don't seem to be regular contributors to LRC. I can't find anything by Jimmy Breslin, or Ted Rall, for example. Perhaps LRC carries some syndicated material from them. Unless the contributions are original they probably aren't worth noting. Seeing as I'm the guilty party who copied the list over here, I'll take the responsibility for removing those whose contributions are not evident. -Will Beback 07:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

This is a bigger task than I'd thought. As a first pass I'm going to remove the people who do not have an archive at LRC, or are apparently syndicated columnists whose work is carried by several new media. This is the initial pass of names on that basis. It is a coarse screening and I'm sure we can get our list down to those who are actually writing for LRC. If anyone else wants to work on this, maybe someone who knows more of the material, than that'd be a big help. We edit this list, make up a new one from scratch, or just edit the article. Cheers, -Will Beback 08:01, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Will, what does your notation with asterisks mean below? I'm glad enough to help with this effort, but I don't want to undo anything you've done. Dick Clark 15:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
The asterisks are inconsistently applied to folks who seem to be syndicated. The question marks are names on our list that aren't even list on LRC (anymore). -Will Beback 18:02, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed these names from the list. We can continue to refine the list as time goes by. Cheers, -Will Beback 20:46, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
If I strikethrough a person's name below that indicates that I have reinserted his or her name into the article's list. Dick Clark 18:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] People who don't seem to write for the LRC

He died, but before he died I think LRC was his main outlet outside his own duplicate publication at his own site. Before that, I think it was World Net Daily.
Nall is still published at LRC, although she is not listed on the columnists page. See Colombia by Loretta Nall and My Day in Court by Loretta Nall. Dick Clark 18:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I know for a fact that Rep. Paul and Lew are friends, and Rep. Paul has certainly written for the Free Market and other LvMI outlets before. It is clear from the citations on Paul's LRC articles that many of them are the transcripts of speeches delivered to Congress, etc. Do we have any reason not to believe that any of the others were written for LRC originally? Dick Clark 18:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
When I looked at his material it appeard to have been syndicated. Speeches to Congress are public domain and so there's nothing special about carrying them. But certainly if we have some sign that he wrote original material for the LRC then he should be included. -Will Beback 22:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Below are my email to Lew about this and his short reply. Dick Clark 16:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
*****
On Apr 18, 2006, at 9:56 AM, Dick Clark wrote:
Lew,
I'll get those essays to you later today.
I also have an unrelated question (for Wikipedia):
Does Ron Paul write original articles for LRC, or are the articles that you run sydicated somehow? 
I assumed that some were addresses or were otherwise written for other venues, and that some were
LRC-specific contributions. Let me know. I am trying to make sure that Rep. Paul stays on the list 
of LRC's notable contributors if he is one.
Thanks,
Dick
*****
On Apr 18, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Lew Rockwell wrote:
Virtually all of them are Congressional productions, though he asked me to run them, and LRC is his
top web venue by far. And thanks! Lew
I think he is a link-to guy like Sobran
Only a couple of his writings that were originally published elsewhere were posted to the site. (maybe more. IDK)


Is Sobran really a contributor? I know the site regularly links to his articles, but I don't think I have ever seen a Sobran article with the blue, black and white color scheme hosted at LewRockwell.com.

Well, According to this article[10], Sobran spoke at a conference with proceeds to benefit LRC. DickClarkMises 03:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quest for Will

Are you going to deal with including information from David Horowitz's DiscoverTheNetwork.org's critique of LRC?

Rogerman 19:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)Rogerman -Rog

Not if I don't have to. -Will Beback 20:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed passage

The reason that this passage ("[Joe Sobran] was fired from the National Review by William F. Buckley for anti-semitism") is not acceptable and should be removed is that a) to say that someone was fired from the National Review is not, by itself a criticism; a lot of people would say it's a sign of good character; b) to say that he was fired for anti-semitism is an oversimplification of what happened between Sobran and Bill Buckley; and c) the connection between that and LewRockwell.com is tenuous (I'm sure this issue could be profitably covered at Joe Sobran's article). What's more, the passage as it stands is agrammatical after the preceding bit, so those who want it in the article should at least fix that. - Nat Krause(Talk!) 00:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

And I removed it because d) it isn't included in the criticism that we have cited. -Will Beback 00:57, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, North's endorcement of stoning of homosexuals is included in the cited criticism. -Will Beback 00:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Question: Isn't the whole point of Wikipedia to include information? Since Sobran was fired from the National Review for anti-semitism, why shouldn't that be included in the page...??? Just my 2 cents. TheDookieMan 05:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)TheDookieMan

No, the "whole point" of Wikipedia is to provide readers with articles written from the Neutral Point of View that include verifiable claims from notable sources. Your assertion that Buckley fired Sobran for anti-semitism is counter to Buckley's own explanation, an issue which we have addressed already. Dick Clark 15:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uh, what are you talking about? Buckley DID fire Sobran for anti-semitism and everybody knows it. TheDookieMan 16:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)TheDookieMan

Uh, I'm talking about Buckley's own words. Buckley himself says What needs to be said first is that those who know him know that Sobran is not anti-Semitic.... Those who know Joe Sobran know not only that he does not harbor ethnic prejudices, but that he regards such prejudice as sinful, despised by God, and therefore despised by man.[11] Dick Clark 17:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Everybody except Buckley himself, apparently.St. Jimmy 19:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Selectively quoting one sentance which Buckley put in to cool things down doesn't change the overall message of his piece. Buckley writes that Sobran "has gone down the dangerous path of considering different people of a particular ethnic group as a collective problem." He goes on to cite how "Sobran ignores the contribution of millions [of Jews]" and suggests an "insidious nature to their religion and culture". That's anti-semitism folks...and Sobran's guilty of it. TheDookieMan 18:07, 17 April 2006 (UTC)TheDookieMan

Your opinion of anti-Semitism is POV. It is not neutral or even accepted by the consensus, and it has to go.St. Jimmy 19:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
DookieMan: Okay, first off, I don't think that your opinion on why Buckley included a particular phrase or sentence in one of his essays has any bearing here. We are writing an encyclopedia article, and all we use for sources here are verifiable, notable sources. See Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought and Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Speculation on Buckley's mental processes are not germane to this discussion—what notable sources quote him as saying either verbally or in writing is what matters here. I think there is a mediocre case for labelling Sobran as an "anti-semite" given the some of the broader definitions of the term in the Wikipedia article here. That does't matter, however, since the Buckley quotation above doesn't say anything about firing Sobran for anti-semitism, which is the claim being made by some of the editors working on this article. Dick Clark 19:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
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