Talk:Lesbian until graduation

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This article was nominated for deletion on 16 July 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Surely this is an article for urban dictionary rather than wikipedia?!?

not really encyclopedic —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wetman (talk • contribs) . April 5, 2004

Added TotallyDisputed because right now, the article sounds rather pejorative. It is unclear who uses that term how, and who makes what out of this alleged phenomenon. -- AlexR 22:18, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The state this is in it dosen't seem encyclopedic. Added the cleanup header. Ghost Freeman | Talk 23:39, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just because you haven't heard of it does not mean it does not exist, it is a term that is used in North America and esp in America since many self described heterosexual kids are experimenting with same sex behaviour and also starting gay/lesbian relationships while in college/university. Time Magazine covered this 'phenomenon' and used the phrasing - i'll try to find the article.ShaunMacPherson 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The phenomenon of young people experimienting with their sexuality is not exactly new; the "homosexual pahse" during puberty was old news when I was in puberty - and that has been a while. I did however, not being a US-american, ask around what others thought about this article, and they agreed that the way it is now it sounds very pejorative. So instead of attacking me, why don't you fix the article? -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As well you, AlexR, come across to me as combative. Not everyone is on a mission 'pejorative' to others or gay and lesbians in general. --ShaunMacPherson 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since I have never claimed that "everybody" (or even a substantial number of people) is on such a mission, this comment seems to be somewhat pointless. -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Here is a relevant quotation from Time Magazine, Dec 8, 1997. You'll need to pay to read the whole article here if it is not posted elsewhere.

There is, of course, some evidence that homosexuality is something of a fad among young people. On a few college campuses, the term "gay until graduation" is used derisively to describe those who experiment with gay sex. Gay equality has nonetheless become a '90s version of Birkenstock environmentalism for many youths. Even in certain parts of suburbia, gay is becoming more than O.K.; it's cool.

It should be called gay or lesbian until graduation or perhaps a similiar article title. --ShaunMacPherson 23:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I may point out that even time magazine calls "x until graduation" a derisive term, so most likely there is a better heading for this. Which was my point. -- AlexR 01:26, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, although that is the term as it is used and if the article is about the term, and not the concept of youth sexual exploration, then the title seems approperate. Such as the article Fag hag is about more the term and not the concept of heterosexual women befrending gay men. I have no problem creating a new article about youth experimentation or exploration in college. However, this is starting to get into POV issues by censoring the name of the article because people may not like the term as it is used imo.

It is can be 'derisive' term and we have a factual basis for knowing it can be so from the article. We can incoroprate that perhaps using Fag hag or Nigger (word) as exemplars as a way to so effectively and still be NPOV. As well this article is from 1997, since then I believe that it the word has coopted by the gay and lesbian community to be a word that is not necessarily derisive but realizes that sexuality is not black or white and people need the freedom to know and to explore who they are without labels. --ShaunMacPherson 01:40, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, are we taking part in the same debate? Who tried to "censor" anything? And you ought to cite sources, "I believe" is not really the stuff we should build WP on, methinks. -- AlexR 08:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I always find sources for what I state, i.e. the article I found. Perhaps instead of just criticism you could go look for research yourself, as I am doing. Incidently, if you were to read the summary edit: "Follow up, more research as to how the term is currently used? Article was from 1997, i think it has become less derisive since then but we should look for a factual backup to confirm" speaks for it self.--ShaunMacPherson 18:04, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The problem I see is that there's no sign of a corresponding Gay until graduation referring to males. Presumably it exists, but neither does this page admit, deny or even address the question. Rather, it just singles out females as the subset of people to bother telling us about. -- Smjg 30 June 2005 12:38 (UTC)

[edit] Removing middle paragraph

I removed this paragraph:

More specifically, the term LUG may be used to refer to a previously heterosexual woman, who due to either peer pressure or an affirming environment at a university may change her sexual orientation on a temporary basis. Many of these women find the lifestyle ultimately untenable or unsatisfying, and absent the supportive environment, lapse into their traditional, heterosexual orientation. In jest, it's usually used to refer to a vocal or militant lesbian on a university campus, with the understanding that their strong support is due to the novelty of the practice rather than any real devotion, and that it'll pass quickly in spite of their previously strong support of homosexuality.

This is really just conjecture and isn't relevant to the term or its usage (which should be the subject of the article). If any of these ideas can be substantiated with sources, then they should go into another article, such as Homosexuality. Demi ^T/_C 08:00, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)

Particularly, the idea that some sort of "temporal homosexuality" can be caused by peer pressure (and does that really exist?) or an affirming environment smells like the "choosen lifestyle" argument of those wishing to "cure" homosexuality. Therefore, such statements need backup by facts. -- AlexR 08:19, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The point of this idea seems, from what I've read on it, is that people are 'experimenting' with gay / lesbian relationships without the need to label themselves gay or lesbian. It is a rejection of the polar ideas of hetero / homo (or bi as a third category). Kinsey's continum of sexual identity might be incorporated into the article as well then. --ShaunMacPherson 14:31, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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I can see this as well as prison sexuality heteroflexible and homoflexible (and posibly others) under a common topic of "conditional sexual orientation" in which people, for various reasons, exhibit specific sexual behavior without it being a lifetime orientation. There are many examples of this and lots of documentation for someone who wants to tear into it - --Outlander 18:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

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neutrality issue: 1) this isn't a "elite/ women's college" issue; the women's college suggestion is particularly offensive due to the implicit suggestion that women choose to have sex with some women because there are no men around (men are around), but rather are attracted to some women and fall in love with some women; orientation isn't a choice; it's about bisexual woman who want to be in a long-term monogamous relationship and choose the privileged group -heterosexual- over the minority group -homosexual- perhaps in hope of having a family; 2) it is common among LGBT folks to not tell their parents and family -it is a little stigmatized- and they may be unwilling to come-out until they have made a decision upon graduation; are any other "homos" (smile) writing about this page? it don't seem like it!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.119.139.113 (talk • contribs) . 01:13, October 15, 2005

[edit] Anecdotal evidence

I was a physics geek at MIT, but I did get to see a bit of the world. Most importantly for the discussion here, I met more than a few Wellesley girls, so I can verify that the term and its variant "bisexual until graduation" are in active use. Not that this bit of original research is useful in any scholarly way, but I thought I'd just make it available. In my hearing at least, these descriptions were not used in a derogatory way, even by young women who viewed themselves as firmly homosexual.

Best wishes, Anville 12:02, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

this looks factual and accurate to me now. unless there's further comment or complaint i move we removed the totallydisputed. it seems clear to me that the term itself is used in a slightly or totally pejorative manner; it is used by lesbians to dis women that are only 'playing' at being lesbian. the current revision also notes that the term is also somewhat tongue-in-cheek. can we move along now? Slamorte 00:21, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I can confirm Anville's anecdote. I spoke once with a psychologist (a distant family member) who said her practice includes and affirms GLBT people, and that she has encountered more than one "Lesbian until Graduation." Their life 'story' is usually different from GLBT people (e.g., most GLBT people say that they felt that they were somehow 'different' from everyone else even from preschool years; LUGs don't usually have the same feelings), and some of them freely admit (to their psychologist, not to their parents) that they are choosing to present themselves as a lesbian in very much the same way that another person might choose to be a Goth. One -- yes, from an East Coast women's college -- described coming out as a lesbian to your parents as a rite of passage; it's just what was 'done' in her circle of friends. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.124.70.110 (talk • contribs) . 22:08, January 31, 2006

As more anecdotal evidence, I would like to add that I attended an all-girls high school where the term LUG was used humorously to describe many of the goings-on of girls in the dorm rooms. I don't know of other all-girls high schools which used this term, but I don't think it is uncommon.

[edit] Queer Theory

Should there be reference here to feminist/queer theory and fluidity of sexuality? It seems like there should. As an alternative theoretical perspective. (People do write papers on this stuff.) So, if I added a paragraph, would it be acceptable?