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THIS PAGE IS RACIST - CLEAN UP OR DELETE ALL TOGETHER

This is the discussion page for the Lebanese Australian article. Please add new topics to the bottom of the page and sign your comments.

is bob katter as a famous lebanese australian a joke? I've removed it. If he is by some chance actually lebanese, please cite.--Phatmattbaker 10:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Around half of all Lebanese Australians live in Sydney. A good encyclpedia would source this fact. something like, "According to the 2001 ABS Census, Around half of all Lebanese Australians live in Sydney." MPS 05:24, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Thanks for the rewrites ... 1.1 Cronulla Riots? 1.2 Pack Rapists 1.3 Canada 1.4 Increase in Lebanese Gangs? 1.5 See also list 1.6 Skaf 1.6.1 Proposing a compromise 1.7 Hilarious 1.8 Ali Osman 1.9 Tamara Jaber 1.10 THIS ARTICLE HAS BECOME A JOKE 1.11 Headline text 1.12 Famous Lebanese Australians not included in list 1.13 Defamatory comments included in this page. 1.14 Egotistical Trouble Markers!

[edit] Thanks for the rewrites ...

...which went on in my absence, or at least when I was not paying active attention. The article reads smoothly and informatively. Are Lebanese Australians really the ninth largest group? That sounds interesting...thanks for beefing up the history too. --EuropracBHIT 07:33, 28 December 2005 (UTC).

Yes, Lebanese Australians are the ninth largest group according to Australian Bureau of Statistics census data available here: http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/525a1b9402141235ca25682000146abc/8e6fd54fc12ceb0eca256e910078296a!OpenDocument. Details of the Lebanon-born are available at the Community Information Summaries at DIMIA at www.immi.gov.au/statistics. (Someone else will have to put the references on the article page as I haven't worked out how yet.) I have tried to create a fairly standard article shape for all the Australian ethnic groups so that they can be easily cross referenced. Doire, 12:32, 28 December (UTC).

[edit] Cronulla Riots?

Should something be put in about the Cronulla riots? Alot of the anger there seemed to be directed towards lebanese australians, so i think it would be relevent. Ill leave the decision up to you guys. -kurtas

Yes, it's relevant to the article, but don't forget to keep it NPOV. CG 11:48, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pack Rapists

Why is Bilal Skaf and rapists listed as notible Lebanese Australians? Criminals dont represent social groups. In an article about nationalities criminals are never listed as notible figures. This is very offensive and i wish it to be removed. The cronulla riots have the same right to be mentioned in the article "Australia" as the article "Lebanese Australians". Lebanese Australians did not start the cronulla riots, Anglo Saxon Australians did. CG 12:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

>>I completely disagree with the assessment that "Anglo Saxon Australians started the riot" that is incorrect, erroneous, and racialist. The lebanese started the riots.

The list isn't about representing a social group, it's listing members of the group who are notable, for whatever reason. The List of Australians contains a whole section of criminals. If the riots are mentioned in this article, then it would be in such a way that wouldn't imply that Lebanese Australians started the riots, but to explain how they were examples of racial attacks directed at Lebanese Australians. JPD (talk) 10:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

i think its a bad idea to include people like skaf. very unprofessional. Tarins01 13:20, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

>>"Unprofessional"? what are you talking about?

But Lebanese 'Australians' DID start the riots. It wasnt superior Anglos who went around bashing surf life savers and pack raping women while shouting 'you take it small dicked leb style'

[edit] Canada

this shouldnt be merged. "Leb" is uniquely aussie.

[edit] Increase in Lebanese Gangs?

"In recent years Lebanese community has come under increasing friction with the mainstream Australian community resulting in ethnic tensions. Most of these tensions has been due to the increase in Lebanese gang related activities. However, Hazem El Masri who plays with the Canterbury Bulldogs is seen as a good role model for Lebanese and Muslim Australians."

This paragraph is extremely illiterate. There is no evidence what so ever to indicate that "lebanese" gang related activities have increased, yet alone to suggest that it has created an increased tension with a "mainstream" Australian community. I am assuming Mainstream is Anglo Saxon Australians. These are the "real" Australians to the author. It seems the author's comments are only opinion which have been created by the media in Australia and its negative portrayal of the Lebanese Australian community.

"created by the media in Australia and its negative portrayal of the Lebanese Australian community" this is biased POV attack against the Australian media. I hereby denounce this attack.

Hazem El Masri is only one of the many "good" (absolutely terrible language) role models for Lebanese Australians.

This must be removed immediatly. Has Wikipedia just become a message board? Having Skaf the rapist as a notable member of the community, and now this is seriously undermining integrity of wikipedia. CG 12:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC

>>I disagree, you cannot pick and choose your notable Lebanese Australians. Any Lebanese Australian that has masses of news articles and media coverage is therefore notable.

Administrator - Please remove references to the Skaf rapists - they are not notable Lebanese Australians - they are criminals - As an Australian of Lebanese background, I am insulted that their names be listed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.166.110.125 (talk • contribs).

I would be insulted if the names of the muslim Lebanese pack rape attacker hate criminals were removed.

You can probably remove it yourself without admin assistance. Feel free to contact me with any questions. Alphachimp ^talk 06:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I would not recommend removing on account of their criminal status. Every ethnic group has good and bad. They are notable, and they are Lebanese Australians. This page is not just for the good. Ansell 07:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I fully support the inclusion of the notable gang rape attacker hate criminals and terror suspects that the Lebanese community has contributed to Australia in the list of notable lebanese australians.

For the moment I'll put up with the above - however a big error is the reference to Kurds being a Lebanese group. This is very wrong. There is a small population of Kurds, just like there is a small Jewish community. Furthermore, Armenians living in Lebanon are Catholics or Orthodox, they are not a Lebanese group.

Kurds and Armenians born and raised in Lebanon are Lebanese in the civic sense whether you accept it or not. They can thus be included in Lebanese Australian if they have migrated to Australia. They certainly see themselves as Lebanese. Implying that only Arabs / "Phoenicians" can be Lebanese is both narrow minded and incorrect. User: Doire 14:25, July 21 2006

[edit] See also list

links to articles about criminal incidents don't belong in an article about an ethnic group of people, so I've removed them. To include such links would be to associate the whole ethnic roup (in this case many thousands of people) with the event. This is unencyclopedic. Furthermore, to include the link to 'list of Australian criminals' is just absurd. I'm also not sure that the link to the 'Sydney race riots' belongs here. If there is an argument that these links do belong here, then I think we should also link 'sydney race riots' and 'list of Australian criminals' to Anglo-Celtic Australian, Asian Australian, Greek Australian and others. These are absurd edits and should be removed. -- Adz|talk 12:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Skaf

Stop putting gang rapists who no one has ever heard of in notable lebanese australians. This is pure racism, they are not notable and this is inaccurate information. The dual citizen exodus is opinion. Wikipedia is not a message board so dont add your opinion in an encyclopedia.

Like it or not he is a well known Lebenese-Australian. To not have him would not be NPOV. The Australian page has a whole sections on criminals. Raya 85 15:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

--141.76.45.35 11:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposing a compromise

• The links to the gang rapists continue to be edited in and out. It's getting rather annoying. I think it's time to propose a compromise. I think part of the issue is that the representation of 'rapists' on the list is disproportionate. (I personally don't think that individuals associated in a criminal incident are notable within the context of a whole community but others obviously do). The list contains four or five individuals who are associated with the same incident. The wikilinks for those mentioned all link back to the same article. The people themselves are not notable other than for the incident, so creating a separate article for them all isn't the way to go. I therefore propose that the links for the 'rapists' be removed and replaced with just one link - which will be the article they all lead to at the moment anyway. -- Adz|talk 11:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Im not opposed to having having the other rapists linked to the Skaf Rapes together or removed from the article. however i believe that Skaf himself should remain in the list. Raya 85 09:13, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I am opposed to your changes and have reverted them. It is established that these lebanese criminals are notable and many people have agreed over the last few months. There is no case to remove the names from the list, despite the fact that they link to the same article. The list's purpose is not dependent on there even being an active link in fact some of the names don't even have an article and are in red, yet they are on the list, so if you remove names of individuals who get a mention in wikipedia and not the red names that are not even notable enough to have an article you are applying a double standard that is simply biased to your political agenda to water down the reality that many many lebanese australians are criminals, and it does not matter that they are based around one incident as you say, in fact i would argue that dozens of rape attacks on many women are not one incident as you say. Please refrain from fiddling with the list further.

--141.76.45.35 11:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with above user and I too am opposed to the changes, adz has an agenda here, if the list contains, a former footballer who isnt even notable enough to have his own article and a beauty pageant contestant who likewise has no article than it certainly can contain lebanese criminals who are mentioned in wikipedia articles about a series of horrific crimes which shocked the nation. Stop fiddling, I agree, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 0000001 (talk • contribs).

A few points. Firstly, 141.76.45.35's assertion that 'many people have agreed over the last few months' is not supported by the fact that the names have been repeatedly reverted over that time, and not just by me but by other editors.

You're entitled to revert the changes, but in order to end the constant reverting that has gone on, I raised the discussion here and left it up for a week before making changes. I did this in good faith in the hope of reaching consensus. The only person to comment was Raya 85. I'll leave 141....35's edits alone for now in the hope that we're able to reach consensus, but I'm going to revert 0000001's edits. 0000001 has used as justification for keeping the criminal's names the fact that other names were listed (Houssami and Hanna) and has then gone and deleted them. Both names generate numerous hits on Google and I think they warrant further discussion.

My issue was that listing all the people associated with one event (or ‘activity’ for want of a better term) presents an unbalanced and disproportionate list. They aren't notable for anything other than the event/activity, and in my view, should be listed once. To draw an analogy with a completely different scenario, if the entire Tasmanian cricket team was listed in the List of prominent Tasmanians, it would heavily skew the list and it would be disproportionate. Most of the cricketers are only notable for playing cricket for Tasmania and it would be sufficient to mention them in that article, not on the list. Somebody reading the list might conclude that Tasmanians are heavily into playing cricket. Instead, the cricketers who are listed are those who are particularly notable.

If I have an agenda as you say, then it is simply to produce a list that is proportionate. I’m not disputing that there are criminals who are of Lebanese origin, I just see the prevalence of convicted rapists in the list as disproportionate. If a disproportionate list is justified because “many many Lebanese Australians are criminals” as you claim, then you need to reference statistics to make the case.

I’ll leave 141….35’s edits alone for now, but in future I think it would help if people took part in discussions here before reverting what has already been proposed and discussed. -- Adz|talk 16:04, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This reverting of the list is getting out of hand. As it is a list of NOTABLE Lebanese-Australians i propose, as a compromise, that any person who is not notable enough to have their own article in Wikipedia is not notable enough to be included in the list. This will remove a lot of the Gang Rapists whilst still leaving the more well known in the list. It will also remove a few of the more obscure Lebanese-Australians whom there is not PRESENTLY an article on. what do you guys think? Raya 85 03:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I can go along with that for the time being, however I'm concerned that articles would suddenly be created for the other two rapists who don't have articles at the moment and that they'll be added back to the list. I think that would be against the spirit of the compromise. - The issue is, as I see it, that several people associated with the same event (or series of events) are disproportionately represented as a result of there being several of them. Also, I'm not sure that Mohammed Ghanem is particularly notable. I think the article could be merged into the main article about the gang rapes and removed from the list as well. -- Adz|talk 01:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I take back what I said above. Apparently there are articles for Mahmoud Sanoussi, Tayyab Sheikh, H (gang rapist), and other gang rapists. These people aren't notable for anything other than the Sydney gang rapes, for which there is already an article, and which they could all be merged into. To my mind, this means that they're not notable and shouldn't be on the list. Compared to 'lists of notable people' in other articles about ethnic groups in Australia, this list reads like a 'who's who in Goulburn goal' and isn't representative of the Lebanese Australian population. It comes close to vilification of an entire community.

With respect to some of the other names listed, listing people who have been accused of a crime but who have not yet been convicted seems to be in breach of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. I think these should also be taken down. -- Adz|talk 03:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

To be notable, they can't just be any lebanese australian criminal. This what is happening here, yes, criminals are on the notable australian page as well, but they are the biggest and most notable in Australias history, mass murderers, not some baggage handler suspected of terroism. This is just an insult and racism. It's a sick joke and people are defending it. I can accept the skaf brothers, they would be notable.

[edit] Hilarious

I find it funny that atleast one in three notable lebanese Australians are criminals

As long as the Australian article does not have every single australian that has commited a crime, this article should not contain unheard of rapists and terroists. Just because they have been on the media doesnt make them notable, if so, every Australian criminal who has been mentioned in the media should be placed in the Notable Australian list. --

This is just a racist joke

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.45.223 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Ali Osman

Stop placing this name back into the notable list. He is not a notable Lebanese Australian. People charged with affray and assault are not notable people, he is unheard of.

I wouldnt say hes unheard of. a quick google search brings up >500 articles. which is more then alot of the other "notables" Raya 85 22:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because a person is mentioned in the media does not make them notable. The "other notables", may not have as much hits on google, but google hits shows systematically, how much they are mentioned in the media, it does not indicate how notable they are. There are many other factors than just a simple google search, which is quite shallow. Anyone to do with the cronulla riot was heavily mentioned in the media during that period. I find raya 85 extremely bias, due to the fact that any other non Lebanese Australians involved in the cronulla riots dont have articles on wikipeida and are not mentioned in the Notable Australian Section. It would be ridiculous to have a person who assaulted an arab in the cronulla riot to be mentioned in the Notable Australian section, so why the double standard? Including Ali Osman, a teenager charged with affray, in the Notable list is racism.

unsigned 17:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly as to claims i have some sort of anti lebanese bias, i was the one that suggested the compromise that had the majority of the other lebanese criminals removed from the list. Osman is notable as previously stated he has > 500 hits on google and his own page on wikipedia. If this is not enough to be classed as notable then maybe you would like to suggest some other criteria that we can use across the board to determine if a person is worthy of inclusion in this list. Raya 85 11:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

no·ta·ble (nō'tə-bəl) adj. Worthy of note or notice; remarkable: notable beauty; sled dogs that are notable for their stamina. Characterized by excellence or distinction; eminent: formed a commission of notable citizens. See synonyms at noted. n. A person of distinction or great reputation. See synonyms at celebrity. often Notable One of a council of prominent persons in pre-Revolutionary France called into assembly to deliberate at times of emergency.

Ali Osman is therefore not a notable Lebanese Australian. Please remove ASAP.

unsigned 17:04, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

no·ta·ble (nō'tə-bəl) adj. Worthy of note or notice; remarkable: notable beauty; sled dogs that are notable for their stamina. Characterized by excellence or distinction; eminent: formed a commission of notable citizens. See synonyms at noted. n. A person of distinction or great reputation. See synonyms at celebrity. often Notable One of a council of prominent persons in pre-Revolutionary France called into assembly to deliberate at times of emergency.

Osman could very easily fall into this category. Raya 85 02:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

No Australian probably has ever heard of Ali Osman. Someone charged with such a petty charge, affray and disorder, and mentioned on the media for a limited period of time, cannot even be compared to notable criminals on the australian list.

If you believe Rapists and lifeguard bashers are people of excellence, then that is your own personal opinion and it should not determine this list.

[edit] Tamara Jaber

I'm also removing this person from the list - a member of a manufactured and now defunct pop group, who has never even released and Album...

[edit] THIS ARTICLE HAS BECOME A JOKE

It is unprofessional, vandalised by racists, and now has been locked.

It is obvious the problem is the notable list. There is only one broad category, Notable Lebanese Australians, this accounts for the significant members of the community, which was its original intention, rather than publicised criminals due to racial events.

It would make sense to seperate this list into sub categories, and that way criminals are not classed as "notable".

The articles Greek Australian, Italian Australian, do not list any criminals in the "people" section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cedar 88 (talk • contribs) .

You are incorrect. The List of Italian Australians links to at least three criminals. Ansell 07:18, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

While having too many notable criminals gives the wrong impression, if the majority of LAustralians with wiki articles have some sort of blemish, that's not the fault of wiki. All you need to do is balance the list with articcles with LAus acheivers.Bakaman _Bakatalk 04:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

== Jaques Nasser - Former CEO Ford Motor Company should be added to the list ==

==

[edit] Headline text

Bold text ==

[edit] Famous Lebanese Australians not included in list

'- Robbie Farrah: NRL player for West Tigers - George Lazenby:Actor - Jamese Bond- On Her Majesties Service - Reuben F Scarf: Founder of Reuben F Scarf mens fashion stores - Eddie Obeid: NSW Member of Parliament - George Joseph - Former Lord Mayor of the City of Adelaide - Eden Gaha - Sydney-born and bred TV personality - Jaques Nasser - Former President of Ford

[edit] Defamatory comments included in this page.

In the section "Notable Lebanese Australians" within the article " Lebanese Australians" , there are many gang rapists noted who are not notable. By listing every gang rapist, the article suggests that a majority of Lebanese Australians are criminals as a large percentage of criminals are in the list. On the same note, why not list every good Lebanese person who has been on the news. Whilst, if you search for Chinese Australians- there are no criminals listed in their Notable persons list. This is clearly defamatory, and I may take action once I seek advise from my attorney.

Also the below need to be included to the list:

- Robbie Farrah: NRL player for West Tigers - George Lazenby:Actor - Jamese Bond- On Her Majesties Service - Reuben F Scarf: Founder of Reuben F Scarf mens fashion stores - Eddie Obeid: NSW Member of Parliament - George Joseph - Former Lord Mayor of the City of Adelaide - Eden Gaha - Sydney-born and bred TV personality - Jaques Nasser - Former President of Ford

Get real Mick, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, are you gonna track down all of these people and take them to Court? I think you're living in a fantasy world if you think you're gonna sue all of them for defamation.

Anyway, the "notable" list is exhaustive enough. There's no need to list every single participant in the Sydney gang rapes, just a single link to the relevant article will do. I also object to the "redlinks" such as Barbara Perry, John Symonds, etc. The fact that these individuals do not even have an article for themselves on wikipedia signifies that they are non-notable. Jim Saleam should be removed - there is no (concrete) evidence to prove he is of Lebanese extraction, as well as Tamara Jaber, a singer from a manufactured pop-group who has never even released an album.

--User:Andrew777 , 31 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not a fact that every notable person has a wikipedia article. If you read who these red links are, they are clearly notable people. The first women Leb Australian politician , and the CEO of one of the largest finance organisations in Australia. This is in contrast to the list of criminals on this list, just because they have committed a crime which has been mentioned on the media, it does not make them a notable person. If it did the lists of criminals on other pages would be endless. It is because of their race, their notablitiy is exaggerated.

they were not just "mentioned" in the media they were front page news for multiple days. Raya 85 07:30, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

--User:Cedar 88 , 31 October 2006 (UTC)

THIS PAGE IS A JOKE - RACIST AND BIASED The criminals are not notable Lebanese Australians. Can I expect everytime an Australian of Lebanese decent commits a crime his/her name is listed. this is pathetic, it is a blatant attempt to potray the Lebanese community as a pack of criminals. If the list is to stay then every other race should include a list of 'not so notable' criminals.

Every other list has gangsters and drug kings also. And as for your claims of bias, I noted your vandalism edit to the Ehud Olmert page. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Every other list does NOT contain names of criminals in the same context as the Lebanese Australian page. It's as if wiki writers are trying to include as many criminal names in the list as possible. Go to Greek Australians - any names there? No. I am sure there are a number Greek Australians who have raped women. Lebanese Australians are not proud of the scum names of rapists that are listed as notable people. If wiki is fair, then take the names out or start sorting out the lists of other races. With regards to the Ehud Olmert vandalism, yes it was done in the heat of the moment when Israel decided to disproportionately destroy Lebanon. I was mad,upset etc. For that I do not apologise labelling him a butcher, but I do agree the name should not have been changed.

[edit] Egotistical Trouble Markers!

Reply: I hate to say this but, Lebanese-Australians are trouble makers!. Always causing trouble for no valid reasons! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.106.129.25 (talk) 14:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC).