Talk:Leatherface

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Contents 1 Fictional amputees? 2 Gein 3 Personality 4 New Bottom Template 5 Infobox Pic 6 Part 2 Picture 7 Birth place 8 Infobox 9 Mixing 10 Spoiler tag? 11 Enemies 12 Orczy Leatherface?

[edit] Fictional amputees?

I was wondering, since he got his arm chopped off in the remake, if this would apply to him?--CyberGhostface 01:39, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gein

Here's a link to [1] where the explicitly say that Gein wasn't a direct inspiration for any character, but for the film as a whole. I think people may have been misunderstanding what he inspired. Bignole 20:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a very good link to IMDb, that tells how he inspired the TCM movies and Leatherface. --Mikedk9109 20:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but I checked that. The first problem is that it's IMDb, and they are highly unreliable, but sometimes right. The other is that what you linked is to the inspiration behind [[Leatherface: Texas Chainsaw Massacre III], it isn't about the original film. "The Saw Is Family" is from Part III, and the crew are the same as from part III. I haven't seen the film, but maybe the third one tried to inspire more from Gein, but it doesn't seem like the original had the intention of Leatherface being an Ed Gein inspiration. I think the entire movie was an inspiration of Ed's, and it's probably better to say it that way then to perpetuate further misunderstanding about the character basis. Bignole 20:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I know I read on a site that the director of the original said that he had a dream about Ed Gein, and decided that would be a good idea for Leatherface for TCM. I'll have to go find that site. --Mikedk9109 20:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Make sure Tobe's quoted, cause it wouldn't be good to have a site just say that Tobe said it when he may not have. I'm going to remove the two links and place the top one up there, and rewrite the sentence to fit, until we have a legitimate source (like Gunnar, or Tobe or Kim) actually say different. It seems like everyone else is interpreting the similarities. Bignole 20:38, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. --Mikedk9109 22:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personality

I don't think we are ever going to get a specific source that says "Leatherface is not evil or sadistic", however I think that is shown in the films where we see that Leatherface is manipulated by his family into doing so and doesn't know better. Even in the remake, we see Hoyt goading Leatherface on telling him that "meat is meat and bone is bone" and bringing up Leatherface's childhood to spur him on.--CyberGhostface 15:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

You could find a source where they are comparing him to other horror icons. Otherwise the sentence probably needs to go. You are making a factual statement about an opinion, even if the opinion is rather obvious, it's still an opinion of an editor. I wouldn't doubt that there is some comparision of horror icons out there by something worthy. Bignole 15:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, no one is going to want to search the internet ot just find a source, when it is already in the films. Just watch the films, and if you don't think he is evil and sadistic. I dont know what is. --Mikedk9109 15:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That's just it, you're saying that we should put information into an article that we are too lazy to actually research? If everyone followed that philosophy then all the articles would have no sources, they'd all point to their respective talk pages where it says "watch it for yourself". Even your own statement says "just watch the film and if you don't think....i don't know what is". You're requesting people watch the movies so they can see your opinion of his behavior. I could easily see his personality in your favor, but I could also easily see others seeing his personality as "evil and sadistic". Yes, his family manipulated him, but there's a saying about how influence doesn't make you do something you don't want to do. Even someone that is mentally handicapped has free will, and will often times say "no". My point is that anyone can walk away thinking something different about his personality, that's why we need an outside source for that. Obviously it would be extremely hard to get Tobe's opinion of him (though that would be nice), but that isn't what sourcing is. It can simple be a comparison of the horror icons by a reputible source. Bignole 15:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Guess we'll have to do some searching. -Mikedk9109 15:20, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, this is just my opinion about the statement, I'm obviously no authority at Wikipedia. But, I think currently this articles is probably the best "horror icon" article at wikipedia. It actually has some sources, it isn't written entirely in "in-universe" format as if the person was real. I think it has great potential and I'm merely trying to look to the future of what the article would need if we want to build on it more. Here is Jabba the Hutt's page, and it's a featured article. Leatherface may not have as much information (when we're done) but I think we could look at that like a model for what this page could be. Bignole 15:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Bottom Template

Has anyone though of creating a "80's Horror Icons" template? I mean, Freddy, Chucky, Jason, Pinhead, Leatherface, etc...are usually always associated with each other, and I thought it might be appropriate to have a template at the bottom (below the TCM temp) that has each of them so you can jump to the other characters. I was just thinking about that while looking for comparisons to them. Bignole 15:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe something like this

Horror Icons In Film
Classic:	The Creature | Dracula | Frankenstein's monster | The Invisible Man The Mummy | Count Orlok | The Phantom | The Wolf Man
Modern:	Norman Bates | Chucky | Ghostface | Jigsaw | Freddy Krueger | Leatherface | Hannibal Lecter | Michael Myers | Pinhead | Jason Voorhees |

This way it's nice and neat, and doesn't look like some pages where it's "see Also" and they list everyone. Of course this was just a test, and I didn't come up with all modern icons, just a quick list of the more famous. Bignole 15:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, thats a good template. --Mikedk9109 15:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It could still use some work, and obviously anyone's welcome to go there and fiddle with it. Maybe insert some more names (as long as they fit the bill..and if there's a question then it has a talk page as well), or maybe shrink the text a bit. I beefed it up cause there weren't that many names. Bignole 15:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I redirected the Michael Myers, Pinhead, and Candyman names all to their respective articles. They originally went to the disambiguation page. --Mikedk9109 15:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone think that any of the Devil's Rejects belong there?--CyberGhostface 00:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so, because they were only in one movie right? --Mikedk9109 (talk to me) (watch me) 00:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Two...House of 1000 Corpses and The Devil's Rejects.

I don't know, I don't really think of the as "Icons" but if you want to include them then go ahead. --Mikedk9109 (talk to me) (watch me) 00:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox Pic

I restored the original Infobox picture that was there, this time it won't get deleted, because I used the correct copyrights and summary. --Mikedk9109 15:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Part 2 Picture

I really don't think that that picture should be included. This article is not that long and It doesn't need three pics. There should be one from the original series (Infobox Pic), and from the remake series (2003 remake pic). But I think the part 2 one needs to go. --Mikedk9109 (talk to me) (watch me) 00:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Remove it if you want.--CyberGhostface 00:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok. --Mikedk9109 (talk to me) (watch me) 19:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birth place

Where did this information come from? Bignole 19:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

This is why I said "only the original information". The infobox should contain only information that's generalized belief (weight, height), and information from the original. We cannot swap original and remake information to fill in "blanks". If the original didn't specify something then you cannot fill it in with remake information. It's better to just note the "addition" or "change" in the "Remake and Prequel" section. This does not include "height" because each actor portraying him is probably a different height and we can't change that for every incarnation (that's why I say "general belief"). See what I did over at Jason Voorhees. I have 2 sources giving a general belief of heigh and weight. Also, Leatherface is not a real person, so trying to fill in the gaps to make it seem like he is creates a really odd picture. This is the reason why the opening paragraph doesn't say "Leatherface, whose real name is Thomas Hewitt". Bignole 23:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I cited the information for the birthday and place. How do we know it was from the remake and prequel. They never say his birthday or place in the remake or prequel. --Mikedk9109 (sup) (stalk me) 19:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I assumed that was where they got it, because I know they don't say his birthday or place in the original, any of the originals. Heck, even the "location" is just "a small Texas town", with no specific location. If it isn't in the prequel then I'm wondering where that source got it's information from. I know some people like to use "fan created" canon. That doesn't work here though. Bignole 19:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mixing

I hate all this crap about how this article cannot mix and match. I mean some people have only watched the originals. Some people have only watched the remake series. You guys are saying that if it isn't in the orginal, its not true. Whats the point of having an article on Leatherface, if your not going to use all of the information available. Some people are going to come along and read this article, and say "huh? I thought he was from Travis County". Or, "I thought his name was Thomas Hewitt." But no, only the "true" information from the original is included. Maybe the director is adding information to the remakes to fill in the holes in Leatherfaces character, that were not included in the original. The holes that are filled in the remakes make Leatherface more interesting since we know more about him. This is an encyclopedia, and all the information that can be used, can and should be used. Maybe if we used all the available information this article would be alot better and whould maybe someday be a featured article. Why don't you think about that. --Mikedk9109 (sup) (stalk me) 23:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The remake is featured in the article. We just can't have remake information in the infobox. I'd say more, but I need to be getting off and chances are bignole will probably explain it better. And what makes the remake more important than the original? You say someone who watched only the remake and is ignorant about the film's history will be confused...what about someone who only saw the Tobe Hooper original and sees remake-centric information in the infobox? What if a remake of Nightmare on Elm Street came out that says Freddy Krueger is a cowboy from Oklahoma? Should that information be added to the infobox to not confuse the newbies?--CyberGhostface 23:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is about facts. Not about cowboys. I'm talking about filling in the holes that Tobe did not. Whatever, I don't feel like arguing. But if you want this article to be complete shit, then go ahead. I'm sick of these stupid rules. --Mikedk9109 (sup) (stalk me) 23:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You missed my point completely. What if someone made a remake of Freddy Krueger, and made him a cowboy? Would that be grounds for modifying his infobox? Yes or no? An extreme case, but no different than adding remake-centric information to Leatherface's profile.--CyberGhostface 23:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Fictional character articles are not about listing everything you can about the character. It isn't about their fictional life history, because more characters don't exists past what their original incarnations provide. Fictional character articles are supposed to be about the "out of universe" information; the concepts, the designs, the men behind the mask, etc...not about "Leatherface killed so and so on so and so date". The information from the "in universe" POV can't be picked and choose. Otherwise you'd be adding retconned info all the time. "in universe" info should be sectioned out per film that it was established. INFOBOX info should contain info that was agreed upon by all sources. If someone expands on that information in a way that others do not then it should be into that respective films subsection. Bignole 23:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

So, just because its a remake and the information is being added makes it non notable? If its not about their history then what is it about? Take this as an example. If we were talking about your life, would you just include the information about when you were a teenager? But not about the time when you were and adult? I don't think so. You add information as you go on. Thats exactly what the remake is doing. Adding new information to Leatherfaces character. Doesn't anyone see what I'm getting at here? --Mikedk9109 (sup) (stalk me) 00:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

We're aren't trying to inhibit the article Mikedk, it's just about properly sectioning everything because this is an encyclopedia and not a fan website that chronicles the life the character. There are already sites for that sort of thing. This article is about trying to enlighten readers to the work done outside of the character, while also allowing for quick backstories so that the reader can understand or refresh their memory to what happened in the films. And MY LIFE is a consistent turn of events and never backtracks or retcons. I didn't start my life as a 30 year man, and later someone came in and told me what happened to me as a child. That is what we are saying, this is a fictional character. It's about properly placing it, and trying to "mix and match" for the best result is not encyclopedic. Like I said, look at Jabba the Hutt, this is a "featured article" for a fictional character, it should give you an idea of how the page should look. Bignole 00:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that what this encyclopedia does. Provides biographys. And a biography includes all the information from their life, even if their fictional. But whatever. I guess I'm done editing this page. --Mikedk9109 (sup) (stalk me) 00:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Biographies on REAL people, not fictional people. There is a policy that dictates what you put in a fictionalized article, and it's "out of universe" information. You can include in-universe stuff, just not detailed events, because that's what fan websites are for. Don't be difficult about this Mikedk, we've discussed it before, and it'd be a shame to lose an editor that actually cares about the article's verifiability. Bignole 00:12, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler tag?

Does this article need a spoiler tag?--sin-man 06:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enemies

I changed it to 'People who harm his family' because I doubt Leatherface sees the various people that he chases/kills as Enemies. He probably (given the context of the films) sees the various individuals as food. (Such as we kill Cows for food but does that make Cows our enemy?) Jamesbuc

I think that "Enemies" isn't a good word for any of the infoboxes. They really don't provide anything but fan info for the character, we should probably find better words or ditch all of them altogether from all the pages. As for Leatherface, in Part 2 he blatantly killed people that knew nothing about his family in the opening. I think we are going to end up getting into a lot of symantics regarding "who's an enemy". It may just be best to remove that as "unencyclopedic" content from all the fictional character pages. I removed the "birth/death" from Jason as it starts to get into the "in universe" fancruft. Bignole 20:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Its probably best though to keep Ghostface's one as that one DOES have a specific target. (well exept when Mickey donned the outfit maybe) Jamesbuc

Any suggestions about the others? So far, I can agree that Ghostface usually has one specific target in all three films; but I'm thinking that all the others probably need to be taken down completely because they are more generalized. Bignole 12:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Orczy Leatherface?

Baroness Orczy wrote a book called Leatherface in 1916. A possible source for the name?

Enda80 03:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Enda80

Well, unless Toby Hooper mentions it, we can't deal in possibilities, it would reflect Original Research. Bignole 03:42, 9 December 2006 (UTC)