Template talk:Law

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[edit] Good idea but too U.S. centric

The template is a good idea but as currently structured, it is much too focused on American law (and I am an American lawyer). Other countries have laws, too! --Coolcaesar 23:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to restructure it. I would be happy to see some other attempts. Here are two ideas:

• One big heading with U.S. Law, and then other headings with other national legal systems. The problem with this is that the template will become huge.
• Make the template explicitly "U.S. Law," with a "See also" link to some other major legal systems that will have their specific portals. I don't like this either, though, because there's so much overlap.

Any other thoughts?

Chart123 00:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Too much capitalization! Most articles will have titles like Civil law, not Civil Law. (note that the latter is a redirect). BD2412 T 03:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I have some serious reservations about the current state of the template. Given the sheer breadth of law there is a serious danger that this could get out of hand really fast. Accordingly, it's important to be really selective about what goes in it. I'm especially concerned about having the US law links. It opens up the floodgates to allow every other country's law to be added. I think for starters it's essential that the template remain country-neutral. As for articles to be used in the template I think it would be helpful to ask what are the core classifications of law across the globe, and what fundemental elements that define a given legal system. I think the sub-divisions of legal systems and bodies of law identified in the law article offers a good start. --PullUpYourSocks 05:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

On the one hand, I think that's an excellent idea, and might solve a lot of problems while at the same time reinforce a clear, broad taxonomy. On the other, I am of the opinion that the U.S. law articles should be linked together in some way. I'd be happy to start with a broad Law template that uses the categories in the law article, but I still think it's important to think about ways to link pages that are specifically focused on national legal systems. Chart123 09:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps U.S. law articles could be linked through a U.S. law template, and a more general law template could address universal concepts. BD2412 T 13:03, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that's great, too -- but I'm worried about template overload! For example, imagine a page on double jeopardy. That alone would justify four templates: 1) Law, 2) Criminal Law, 3) U.S. Law, and 4) Constitutional Law. Shouldn't there be some kind of template limit? I like templates, but don't want to get too template-happy.

Perhaps the solution is to create parameters for which pages get which templates? For example, do only broad, general law pages get the broad, general law template? I like the idea of putting it on every law-related page, but maybe that's unrealistic . . . Chart123 13:11, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... not too crowded if you have only two - one narrow-topic sidebar template, and one broad topic template at the bottom of the page. BD2412 T 13:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

There is always risk of over crowding no matter how many templates, but at least with several templates it is possible to be more precise on whether a given template or article is appropriate. A separate US law template wouldn't be a bad idea. However, I'd be very cautious with the idea of putting a template on every law-related page, as Chart123 suggests. A broad template policy would mean that some articles could contain any number of intersecting topical templates, related to law and otherwise, when most of them are only peripherally related. I think a good example of what I'm talking about can be seen in a number of country's Politics templates. They have a tendancy to become massive catch-all templates that are put on too many pages. I don't think we should let that happen to the law template--PullUpYourSocks 15:48, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

To PullUpYourSocks comments, I see the merits in refraining from putting a law template on every law-related page. I would like to hear other user's comments on this, though. My thoughts on this: one of the things that gives Wikipedia so much potential is easy cross-referencing. Although links within an article are great, a generic template has the potential to unify law articles.

So I guess my question is this: to what extent do we want to see such unity? I imagine, for example, a casual web student wanting to look up some info on, say, property rights. So he finds a page on property rights, scrolls down, and sees a law template that takes him to the law portal and to a general discussion on different legal systems. He might not have otherwise done that without the portal, and so we've furthered what I think ought to be one of Wikipedia's goals: not only to make information easily accessible, but to broaden knowledge.

But maybe I'm being too idealistic. I would, however, really like to hear people's thoughts on this.

Chart123 15:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it is so hard to make the template compliant with the Worldwide View policy. Half the links are already to things that the U.S. shares with other common law nations, like Tort, Contract, and so on. Civil rights and separation of powers are universal issues that all governments deal with. All we have to do is replace the U.S.-centric stuff with links to more generic articles like Court, Courthouse, Constitution, Judge, etc. If a reader's curiosity is piqued, nearly all of those general articles already have "See also" sections to more specific subtopics. --Coolcaesar 05:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed redesign

Hi. This template is clearly inappropriate so I have designed a new one which is available here. Please give your comments and thoughts below and edit it as you see fit. Once that one is settled on there may be a need to create a seperate template for Law of the United States incorporating some of the current content. Thanks Andeggs 16:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I like it. It covers the most important articles on law but is not overly cluttered like too many templates. I'd propose possibly adding a reference to List of areas of law. It's currently not the most elegant list, it could maybe even use a better title, but it would be useful when people are searching for law by topic rather than jurisdiction or system. --PullUpYourSocks 20:05, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adjusting the template

I would like to make a few adjustments to the template as follows. It is very good, but it might be even better if the categories were a little more systematic. I just want to write the reasons for changing it here:

1. It's best to put the legal subjects at the top, starting with core topics, and then following with others - the reason is that the best way to understand law is start reading its foundations, just as all students do at law school - contract, tort, criminal, public, property, trusts and international law (or EC law, as we do in the UK)

2. There's one or two small errors in the current scheme, for instance,

(a) international law might be better seen as a substantive body of law, or subject, unlike 'common law' etc, and the other legal systems

(b) criminal law is not usually considered part of public law; it's certainly to do with the state, but public law is usually the other two divisions that are rightly listed: constitutional + admin.

(c) jurisprudence is pretty much the same thing as 'philosophy of law,' and you wouldn't call law and economics part of jurisprudence - I think it's better called a more encompassing 'legal theory' which could leave room to add in 'history of law'

(d) the headings 'equity' and 'statutory interpretation' are not so much 'sources of law' as is the current heading, but, on the one hand, a body of law itself, and on the other, a method of reading the books.

3. As I say, it's great to have the template at all! But I hope that it is a further improvement to put up the categories on the law page current, which mirror a standard way of approaching the topic! User:Wikidea

Hi Wikidea, thanks for updating the template and describing what you've done. I'm not a lawyer so find it difficult to argue with your points but I do have one concern (which is relevant across all the law articles on WP): we must ensure that this subject does not get swept along by an unstated assumption that the reader is only concerned about law as practised in the UK, US, etc. It seems to me to be vital that the template could be seen as equally useful and 'impartial' if one were approaching the topic from the point of view of Sharia law, Chinese law, Halakha or English law. Are the 'core topics' in the redesign central to all these legal systems? Ta. Andeggs 08:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I do know that modern chinese law is based on the German civil law, and that pretty much resembles common law systems in the pattern of core topics. As for Sharia and Halakha, I think it's the same. Everyone deals with forms of international law (or should!) - and every country has a system of public law (because that's just part of the state). Every country has criminal law, and just looking at the Sharia law page, there's a lot of discussion about the various forms of punishment that some countries say apply. Every country has some form of law of obligations - the civil law way of putting it - , which in common law countries we split into contracts and torts. That's why I thought best put up all three on the template, so that, for instance a German or an Italian person wouldn't object. Obligations are just a corollary to property law (and something like trusts is found everywhere too). It just means "I've got stuff, it's mine, and I buy, sell or trade with it". Even in the old Soviet Russia there was a form of property law, although it varies massively of course. According to (some) Sharia lawyers women are their husbands property for instance. So I think that all the core subjects are valid for each country.

But I entirely agree that one country bias is not a good thing, and unfortunately a lot of the articles retain a common law view. But I think whatever country you're in, the same questions come up. Greater emphasis may be put on the stuff currently in 'further disciplines' (like Family law for instance, since I guess in more ancient times a more social morality than individual morality was prevalent). In the West, for instance, a lot of family law is about house ownership (i.e. property law) when people divorce! But hopefully, this approach is at least less Eurocentric than the last template! User:Wikidea