Talk:Lansing, Michigan

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality, if possible.
Wikipedians in Michigan may be able to help!
This article is part of WikiProject Michigan, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Michigan.

Contents

[edit] County Seat Issue

This County Seat Issue as it is currently written is incorrect. I'm guessing the distinction Kestenbaum is making is that Lansing is, in fact, part of a county, but it is not the county seat, whereas Richmond, Virginia is an independent city (i.e. not affiliated with a county at all.) But the fact still stands that Richmond, Virginia and other "independent cities" are state capitals that are also not county seats.

I think this statement needs to be modified to make this distinction clear. It may be the only state capital affiliated with a county that is not also the seat of the affiliated county, but saying it is the ONLY state capital that is also not a county seat is incorrect.

--Ztheday 9:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
But independent cities like Richmond VA and Carson City NV are classified as county equivalents (e.g., by the Census bureau) and appear in lists of counties for their states. In Colorado, Denver is an independent city in all but name: Denver County is coterminus with the city, and when the city annexes territory, it is also annexed to the county. Carson City got to be an independent city by annexing all of Ormsby County. If someone in one of those cities were to ask, "Where's our county seat? Where do we go for county functions?", the answer would be "Here."
The statement is correct and accurate as it stands, but if you have a better way of putting it, by all means, propose it. Kestenbaum 16:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


I'm not trying to be a crank, but the Census Bureau's lack of a term to describe an independent city and thereby calling it a "county equivalent" does not make the city of Richmond a county. I don't know about the situation in Denver, but the situation in the Commonwealth of Virginia is unique. The city of Richmond is isolated. It is not affiliated with the county functions of any counties surrounding it. When land is annexed, it is annexed to the city. If someone in Richmond (where I lived for many years) asks, "Where's our county seat? Where do we go for our county functions?", the answer is, "There is no county seat. Richmond is not part of a county." Everything that might be considered a county function is handled by the city. Every city or county is going to have administrative tasks, but the handling of those administrative tasks does not by its very nature define an area as a county. Upon moving to the Richmond area, Richmond's independent city status is quickly made clear.
Refer to the independent city page for a clear determination of the Commonwealth of Virginia's unique handling of this situation. Additionally, refer to the following quote from the wiki page on county seat: In Virginia, there are (since 2001) 39 independent cities, which are legally distinct from the counties that surround them. An independent city interacts with the commonwealth (state) government directly whereas towns, the only other type of municipal government authority in Virginia, do so through the county government apparatus. However, many of Virginia's independent cities act as the county seat for their neighbouring counties. Also, for certain statistical purposes, some independent cities are considered part of the county from which they separated. For example, the City of Fairfax is separate from Fairfax County, but is still the county's seat and also lies within Fairfax County for statistical purposes.
I would propose removal of the sentence in question. It doesn't add anything of importance to the "information" on the Lansing page. It's more of a party trivia fact than anything. It's inclusion is not important to the page at all. Ztheday 19:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC).
I'm sorry, but you have a lot of that wrong. The city of Fairfax, Virginia is NOT part of Fairfax County, and is not "included" with Fairfax County in any way, even if the Fairfax County government may have some facilities located there, outside its own jurisdiction. The city of Fairfax is a fully independent county equivalent, and (as you put it) interacts with the state directly like any other county equivalent.
Note that many county equivalents around the country are not titled County, including parishes in Louisiana and boroughs in Alaska. Kestenbaum 21:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Then someone needs to fix the wiki page on county seat because the information in my previous post about Fairfax County is directly quoted from that page. Additionally, you're missing the point if you're focusing on Fairfax County. If you read my last post you'd know that my argument doesn't revolve around Fairfax at all. It was just an example that was included in the quote I snagged.
My question is, "Why have you ignored everything I've included about Richmond, Virginia?" I assume it's because you have no information to prove that Richmond, Virginia is, in fact, not treated as a county, and this admission would ruin your claim about Lansing. Richmond may be the only case where this holds true. Even so, it invalidates the claim that Lansing is the only state capital that is also not a county seat.
The truth is, the claim about Lansing is not accurate as it stands. Lansing may be the only state capital that is affiliated with a county that is not the county seat of that county, but it is not the only state capital that is not a county seat.
Again, your last note about county equivalents doesn't hold any water with me. A county equivalent is not a county. And, if you'd read the excerpt I provided, in Virginia, "An independent city interacts with the commonwealth (state) government directly whereas towns, the only other type of municipal government authority in Virginia, do so through the county government apparatus," you'll see that the city of Richmond is not affiliated with a county, and it is not a county unto itself. It is an independent city (therefore not a county seat), thereby invalidating the Lansing claim. Ztheday
Look, I'm not going to argue this any more. If the people of Michigan would rather have inaccurate trivia on their wikis than truth, then leave it. Ztheday
Conceptually, a county is a division of a state, imposed by the state for the state's purposes. The idea behind a "county equivalent" is not something dreamed up by Census Bureau statisticians, it is a generalization about the structures of states. Almost every state is completely tiled by counties and county equivalents in order to administer functions which need to be available for every square inch of state territory, such as recording of births and deaths and land titles. The specific constellation of functions assigned to counties varies from one state to another.
City governments, by contrast, are inherently entities created to provide specific services tailored to specific urban settlements, typically by local option. When you refer to cities being "affiliated" with a county, that totally misrepresents the relationship. You can be "affiliated" by voluntarily joining a club or association. Cities, rather, are located within and are part of a particular county or counties. When a city like Richmond becomes a county equivalent, that means it takes on county functions and has a different relation to its state than do ordinary cities.
The fact that Lansing is not a county seat is an unusual distinction (or negative distinction). Even if you exclude Richmond, Carson City, Anchorage, and Baton Rouge because their county equivalents are not labeled "county", the other 45 state capitals are all county seats.
Notwithstanding all this, I will now attempt to edit the sentence to reflect your concerns. Kestenbaum 23:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Kestenbaum, this new change is perfectly acceptable. I think this new statement truly explains the unique situation of Lansing more clearly and more accurately. Thank you. Ztheday

[edit] Neighborhoods

I have recently added a section on the Lansing page called "Neighborhoods" to decribe the general layout of the city by its regions: Northwest, West, East and Southsides. I've add preliminary descriptions of each with some commentary. I'm sure I'll clean them up as I read them more, and would encourage other's to add to them, and remove anything that may be deemed "too" opinionated if there is anything.

Would it be appropriate to mention the various neighborhood groups in this section? Maybe a table broke out with the current regions stating the group's name, geographic boundries and a link to their web site if they have one or even a Wikipedia entry.
--Stryder 06:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colleges, universities and trade schools?

Some friends of mine and I tried listing all of the post graduate schools in and around the Lansing area once. I wish we had written them down. Off the top of my head some that are not mentioned are Lansing Community College, Davenport University, Great Lakes Christian College, the barber college, Douglas J, Excel Academies of Cosmetology, Adams Modeling, and then CMU and Adrian both have extentions here...

You get the idea.

--Stryder 06:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


don't forget thomas m. cooley law school. it's probably the school in lansing that results in the most $ awarded to students. since it's a law school and all.

[edit] Let's not get out of control

I removed the sentence "The Lansing area is generally recognized as one of the most educated communities in the United States." It's completely and utterly false. No one outside Lansing thinks this at all, especially not people from out of state. I replaced it by saying there are many higher ed institutions, but to claim that Lansing is nationally regarded for education is false. Compare Lansing to, say, Boston. The number of colleges don't give national reputations, the caliber of the institutions themselves does.

I don't think many people in Michigan think this either, unless your talking about MSU in East Lansing about their veterinary or international programs then that would be true.

[edit] Shameless Boosterism

Whoever has been working on this entry is either a shameless booster for the city of Lansing or someone whose definitions of "lively entertainment and culture" and "gentrification" are wildly different from those used by the general population. I've taken out the worst excesses. Please, people, this is supposed to be a useful resource, not an online house of lies.

amyanda 01:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)amyanda2000 I don't know about 'gentrification' but I can't imagine why Lansing should NOT be able to claim 'lively entertainment and culture'- maybe Lansing isn't world renowned for lively entertainment and culture, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have those things, it certainly does. Why would this be a lie? Lansing has many art and cultureal festivals and activities, several theatures- community, childrens and professional- plenty of art museums, tons of live music, concerts, commedians, and all sorts of other cultural activity. By what definition is this not lively entertainment and culture? as compared to what? If it didn't say 'the liveliest in the nation' then I don't see the complaint. There are cultural events year round and some rather big festivals that take place in lansing. amyanda 01:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)amyanda2000

[edit] Pictures

i can provide pictures of lansing/lansing area, but what sort of pictures should i be going for? i was thinking a picture of oldsmobile stadium would be good, and a skyline picture of the downtown region. any other suggestions? Ricecake 08:23, 2 April 2006 (UTC) ricecake

I can get pictures of the Board of Water and Light buildings and Sparrow Hospital pretty easily. Can we use those? Nick 23:45, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I live about a block from Sparrow Hospital and I can get decent shot of the capitol skyline between the Sparrow and the Professional Building. It looks very nice at sunset. Would anyone have a place for it? Lucajo 20:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Technology Economy?

I find the entire section to be useless and non-notable. The fact that the city has a few IT companies does not educate anyone about Lansing. Segelflugzeugwettbewerber 01:15, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, it's not entirly notable. While Lansing does have a Technology Economy on some level, it's not notable. LilDice 00:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Timeline

Why is the closing of the GM plant in Delphi in 2005 on the same timeline as the founding of the City. I think it would be notable under a section about the auto industry in Lansing, but not on that scale. Thoughts? LilDice 22:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

GM is a major employer in the area, and the company is one of the largest in the world. I would say the plant closing is notable enough. Personally, I don't consider the founding of Lansing to be terribly notable anyway.--Segelflugzeugwettbewerber 00:57, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm kind of with you, but if the subject is Lansing, then things related to changes in its entity are relatively more important. But yes as the first or second largest employer in the area, a plant closing is fairly important. - Taxman Talk 02:38, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
So let's leave it there but start a new section on the Auto Industry. A breif synopsis and plant opening and closings. I'll put this on my todo unless someone that feels a bit more passionate about it or has more knowledge than me wants to start it. LilDice 10:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Factual Issue

It says at the beginning of the article that "Lansing is the only state capital city in the United States that extends into three counties". This would be an intersting factoid if it were true. Unfortunately, Columbus extends out of Franklin County, Ohio into Delaware County, Ohio and Fairfield County, Ohio. I'm going to add a fact check, and if somebody can verify the truthiness of this statement, it can stay. Otherwise it will be removed shortly.

Now that you mention it, isn't Oklahoma City a capital too? I think it extends into more than three counties due to annexations in recent years. Kestenbaum 17:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You must have changed it, because I see nowehere where it says that Lansing is the only state capital to extend into three counties. The beginning paragraph simply says that the city extends into three counties. Criticalthinker 12 July 2006

[edit] Places of Interest

How about adding a section about the local places of interest such as bars, resteraunts, etc? I don't mean national chains like TGI Friday's, but the locally owned places that have been around for a long time (Emil's comes to mind. Yum.). Lucajo 17:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so, would just devolve into advertising. LilDice 18:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
That's what we have editors' for. I know before I went to Chicago I looked up several places to go check out, including a few local digs. Just a suggestion. Lucajo 23:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I mean I'd guess I'd have to take a look at some other city's pages, however remember wikipedia is not a place for original research. So you and I can't just make a list of our favorite restaurants....now if you wanted to pick a few good reviews from the LSJ...that's something else. LilDice 23:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
If we are to do a "Place of Interest" section, it should only be for landmarks and attractions, not bars and restaurants unless there is something VERY unique about them. Criticalthinker 19 July 2006
Sorry, the "bars and resteraunts" was the only thing I could think of at the time. Lucajo 16:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I definitely like the idea. Someone else could start it. BTW, I've been working with some of my images. Hopefully, they are good enough for the page.

Criticalthinker

[edit] Original Research

Remember, if you are adding large chunks to the page (criticalthinker) please cite your sources. Adding info to the page without citing it is not productive, an article is only as good as it's sources. LilDice 14:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

My sources for list of Mayors-Lugnut215 20:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • The State Journal newspaper; Lansing, Michigan; April 28, 1955; Centennial Issue; pages C-12 to C-18.
  • Early Lansing History, book by James P. Edmonds, 1944, pages 26-27.
  • Out of a Wilderness: an illustrated history of greater Lansing, book by Justin L. Kestenbaum, 1981, page 184.
  • from book; Lansing and its yesterdays: a compilation of a portion of the historical material published in the seventy-fifth edition of the Lansing state journal, January 1, 1930; page 133.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../l/a/n/Talk%7ELansing%2C_Michigan_c35e.html"