Talk:La Borinqueña

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No consensus to delete. VfD notice removed. VfD discussion archived below. Cecropia 04:33, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place to post lyrics to national anthems. Guanaco 03:24, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)

  • Then we're going to have to remove the lyrics from The Star-Spangled Banner, God Save the Queen, and a couple hundred others on List of national anthems as well. You know, for consistency and all. That said, this one looks much skimpier than a sampling of the others. -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:39, Apr 18, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, make into appropriate article with history of adoption, writing, etc. Postdlf 3:40 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
    • and we need a translation alongside the original. This is still the English wiki and a page people can't understand is pointless - in that case it should just be on the Spanish wiki. I'll list it under Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English with a special note that the original needs to remain on the page. Pteron 04:02, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Agreed: Keep, and translate. Cribcage 04:31, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep lyrics beginning "La tierra de Borinquén donde he nacido," which is the Puerto Rican commonwealth anthem. Keep the original set of lyrics posted here, beginning "Despierta, borinqueño que han dado la señal! for now. It does not, however, appear to be an official anthem. Ideally someone should create an article about the Puerto Rican woman poet Lola Rodríguez de Tió Sep. 14 1843-Nov. 10, 1924 and use some of this material there. See http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/9472/simbolos.html. Dpbsmith 15:46, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC) P. S. The plot thickens. [1] says: "The music is attributed either to Francisco Ramirez or Felix Astol-Artes; in any case, Astol-Artes gave it its danza (habanera couple dance) arrangement and romantic lyrics. Mrs. Lola Rodriguez de Tio wrote its first patriotic lyrics, which were considered highly subversive. Manuel Fernandez-Juncos composed the milder lyrics that were officially adopted. Ramon Collado arranged the dance into an anthem." And [2] give the de Tio lyrics, describing them as "the Revolutionary version." This could grow into quite an interesting little article. All togther now, to the tune of "This Land Is Your Land:" "As I went walkin', I saw a sign there/And on one side it said 'Private Property'/And on the other side, it didn't say nothin'/This land was made for you and me!" What? You weren't taught those lyrics? How very odd! Dpbsmith 23:45, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
P. P. S. Random Googling convinces me that the revolutionary lyrics in fact have some political significance in present-day Puerto Rico. I really hope that someone knowledgeable in Spanish, modern Puerto Rican culture, and able to maintain a neutral point of view will take up this article. Dpbsmith 12:54, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep Bensaccount 03:57, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think the article is shaping up nicely, and there is more on the talk page to be mined. -- Jmabel 08:31, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Anyone care to translate the anthem for us poor saps who only speak English? --Dante Alighieri 19:51 24 May 2003 (UTC)

I translated the revolutionary version, but one passage I'm a bit confused by:

ya por más tiempo impávido
no podemos estar,

This seems to say, roughly "We can no longer be dauntless." But not quite, because that would be:

ya por más tiempo impávidos
no podemos estar,

In any case, this seems bizarre. I would have expected:

ya por más tiempo pávidos
no podemos estar,

"We can no longer be daunted." Still, many places on the we I find "impávido" and nowhere anything else. Can anyone explain this and (presumably) fix the translation accordingly? -- Jmabel 04:13, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also, can anyone explain how a poem from 1867 can refer to "el grito de Lares"? Wasn't the uprising at Lares in 1868? -- Jmabel 04:16, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For what it's worth, http://welcome.topuertorico.org/culture/famouspr.shtml says: "In 1868, inspired by the call for Puerto Rican independence known as the Grito de Lares, she wrote patriotic lyrics to the existing tune of "La Borinqueña." Aha! I think I found it. I screwed up. It's the music that was written in 1867. Dpbsmith 23:13, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this on!

My own knowledge of Spanish is practically nil, but nevertheless this fool has rushed in to tweak the wording of the translation in a few places. (By the way, many diacritical marks in the revolutionary version are missing and should be restored at some point. I'm pretty sure that "canon" should be "cañón", for example). In the translation, I've changed "borinqueño" to "Puerto Rican" because this seems to be how Babelfish and friends translate it. I changed señal to "call to arms." At first I thought "alarm" in the military meaning would be correct, but "wake up! the alarm has sounded" suggests an alarm clock...

"Call to arms": if "tocsin" weren't so obscure, it would be even better, but I think you've made a good choice.
"Borinquén" vs. "Puerto Rico" and "borinqueño" vs. "Puerto Rican" is tricky. It's strictly connotative, a name of native origin vs. a name of Spanish-language origin. I think your change is fine: anyone who knows enough about the place and its culture to get the distinction will almost certainly be looking at the Spanish. -- Jmabel 18:01, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the "ya por más tiempo impávidos no podemos estar" is puzzling. I have an idea this is a place where you'd really need someone literate in Spanish and sensitive to poetic and perhaps archaic language to figure it out. Certainly Babelfish is not up to the task.

What do you suppose is the significance of the title being La Borinqueña (-a) but the poem opening "Despierta, borinqueño" (-o)?

Well, certainly the poem is mainly addressed to the males, hence "borinqueño" is inevitable. The grammatical male, in Spanish, can even include the female, but never vice versa. As for La Borinqueña: well, why La Marsellaise? I'm sure the answer is the same, and it "feels" right, but for reasons that I find impossible to articulate. It's sort of a "crypteme", one of those language rules that native or near-native speakers just "get", but which are not usually considered "rules" of the language, like English "what"/"that", "where"/"there", "whither"/"thither". The pattern is not usually though of as a "rule" of English, but wouldn't you be amazed if you encountered one that was the other way around? -- Jmabel 18:01, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've posted a query in soc.culture.puerto-rico about the background of the two versions, but no replies as yet. By the way, some stuff I've Googled makes me suspect that the revolutionary version has some kind of political significance in present-day Puerto Rico. Dpbsmith 12:32, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely. The independentistas wouldn't touch the official version with a 10 foot chorro. -- Jmabel 18:01, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, do you think you could say that... in slightly different words, of course... in the main article? I'm guessing that the point would be that the "official" version is perceived to be aligned with Muñoz Marin and statehood, and that therefore the "revolutionary" version is therefore opposed, simply by virtue of not being the official version? Presumably the "independentistas" don't want to follow Cuba to freedom... or do they? (If you get the impression I'm clueless about this, you'd be absolutely correct).
Dpbsmith 19:39, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
In my experience (which is not vast or recent: I've now lived 26 years on the West Coast, where there are not a lot of Puerto Ricans) most independentistas are pro-Cuban. Maybe less so now than in the '60s and '70s, I don't know. I am inclined, myself, to tread lightly in the articles related to Puerto Rico, especially with respect to present-day politics. I'm more inclined to hope that now that we've put the article out there, someone more knowledgable will fill it in. -- Jmabel 19:44, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I just posted a note about this in the Spanish-language Wikipedia's "Cafe." Maybe someone there will help us out. Dpbsmith 22:35, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Thank you, Jose Diaz

I posted a query about this in soc.culture.puerto-rico and received two helpful replies, including a superb one by Jose Diaz that could practically serve as the text of the article by itself. I have an email query in to Diaz asking him if I can quote his reply liberally (and explaining that he could, of course, also edit the article himself). If not, I'll try to restrict myself to using it only for background.

The thread is:

http://www.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=zW_gc.3043%24e4.795%40newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net&prev=/groups%3Fsafe%3Dimages%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26as_ugroup%3Dsoc.culture.puerto-rico%26as_scoring%3Dd%26lr%3D%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den

I've now received a reply from Jose Diaz. I asked:

Thank you very much for your detailed reply to my query about La Borinqueña. May I have permission to make liberal use of it in expanding [the article]?

He replied (4/20/2004):

Why, yes, go ahead. I was working with a legislative committee at the time when we celebrated the centennial of the modern PR flag (1995) so I picked up quite a bit of info about our symbols off various sources. Glad to have been of help.

Accordingly, I'm going to reproduce his posting below. I'm not quite sure yet how to use it in the article; although I said it "could practically serve as the text of the article" there's a little too much there, and there are mild POV issues.

I'd like to leave his text here on the talk page so that his contribution will be clear.

(Anyone else who wants to work on this should of course, feel free to do so)

Message 3 in thread
From: Jose Diaz
Subject: Re: The two versions of La Borinqueña?
Date: 2004-04-19 18:21:36 PST 

"La Borinqueña" originated as a "danza",  a popular form of 19th Century
PRican salon music,  by composer Félix Astol.  In its original version, it
had a romantic lyric praising the beauties of the Borinqueña, the woman of
Borinquen:

"Bellísima trigueña, imagen del candor,
del jardín de Borinquen, pura y fragante flor..."

This became a very popular piece in the mid-19th Century and became
identified as one fo the signature tunes of Puerto Rican music.  It is a
quite lengthy piece in four parts with an opening, 2 distinct bridges and a
coda.

In time for the (failed) Lares revolt in 1868, Lola had penned an anthem for
the movement:

"Despierta Borinqueño, que han dado la señal,
despierta de este sueno, que es hora de luchar..."

 Following a pattern that similar to the American national anthem -- taking
over a popular tune -- the patriotic poem was adapted to a version of the
danza by Astol.  For the purposes of its use as an anthem it was given 4
stanzas to fill the entire composition.

Following the failure of the Lares revolt in 1868, and the repressive regime
instaurated by the spanish authorities specially after 1887, the situation
was unfavorable  for any use of the revolutionary lyric (which was preserved
among pro-independence groups).  However, the popularity of Astol's tune was
indisputable, even if now uncomfortably "associated" . And its "underground"
status itself only made it more attractive. What to do?

Into the fray in the 1890s stepped Spain-born Puerto Rican writer Manuel
Fernández Juncos.  His solution: write an ode to the land and sea of Puerto
Rico, a sort of "Puerto Rico the Beautiful", to the tune.

"La Tierra de Borinquen, donde he nacido yo,
es un jardín florido, de mágico primor..."

Now La Borinqueña would be "safe" for polite company.  Conveniently, this
coincides with the takeover by the USA in 1898.  Soon, La Borinqueña with
the Fernández Juncos lyric and a shortened composition for only one stanza
was being included among the songs learned by PRican students in school,
together with La Tierruca and (for the brief attempt at assimilation)
America the Beautiful.  During that time period, "patriotic" song in PR is
about love for your soil and people -- political nationalism was a dangerous
thing to espouse.

During the time between 1900 and 1952, the simplified tune became the most
popularly known, and between on one side the school establishment with the
Fernández Juncos' song to the beauty of the land, and to the other side the
pro-independence movement with the 1st. stanza of Rodríguez de Tió's
revolutionary lyric it was perpetuated.  In a peculiar convergence, on both
sides in its own form it grows to become loved as a Puerto Rican anthem.

On 24 July 1952, the day before the Commonwealth is established, a "solemn"
arrangement of the short version of the *tune* La Borinqueña becomes
officially declared the anthem of the Commonwealth.  However *neither* lyric
was officialized.  Instead, it is announced there would be a contest...
possibly to choose an altogether new lyric of la Borinqueña?  The reasoning
behind that requires someone with more time to research.  You do have to
bear in mind that for many nationalists in 1952, the adoption by the
commonwealth government of the lone-star flag and the Borinqueña was a
rather insulting misappropriation of what to them should have been the
symbols of a Free Puerto Rico, not of this entity bound to the USA.  So
probably at that time there was an idea of adopting a "state" lyric that
would let other parties keep singing whatever they wanted in private.  The
contest, however, never happens.

The People, however, had grown to love their flag and anthem as *theirs*
rather than belonging to any political movement, so they adopted them
eagerly.  And since the majority had grown up with the Fernández Juncos
lyric, they kept on singing it.

It is TWENTY FIVE years later, in 1977, that the government of the
commonwealth finally decides to make it legal and officializes the Fernández
Juncos lyric.  This was, after all, the most popular version, and the one
that would spontaneously rise when, for instance, a PRican athlete would win
a sports event.  More recently, during the current administration, there was
legislation presented to make sure that in *official* activities, only the
*official* version is used -- to this day we annoyingly often hear the
original Astol danza played in its usual


> What do the two versions each mean to the average Puerto Rican? Do they
> have a present-day political significance?

The Fernández Juncos lyric is well-beloved and is recognized as the official
anthem of Puerto Rico(*). To this day, the Rodríguez de Tió lyric is clearly
identified with the pro-independence movement, with nationalism; although at
least the first stanza is recently better known than it had been since the
mid 20th century. It was prominent during the movement associated with the
removal of the Vieques US Navy base, (which is iroinic as one of its verses
literally says "come, we'll learn to enjoy the noise of cannon fire").
However the revolutionary rhetoric tends to put off many people, due to the
calls to violent fighting.

(*)This is not to say that many of us don't wonder if old Manuel could not
have come up with something better.  I mean, covering three long notes by
singing "OOOh, OOOOh, OOOOh..." is a bit awkward.

[edit] discrepancies

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused. The anthem I learned as a little kid in school is different from this one it goes like this (sorry my keyboard doesn't have accents and squiggly n's)

Esta es la linda tierra,
donde he nacido yo.
Es un jardin florido
de magico primor
Sus cielos siempre nitidos
les sirven de dosel
y dan arrullos plácidos
las olas siempre a sus pies.
Cuando a sus playas llego Colon
exclamo lleno de admiracion
O, O, O...
Estas es la linda tierra
que busco yo
es boriquen la hija la hija del mar y el sol
del mar y el sol
del mar y el sol
del mar y el sol
del mar y el sol....

Could someone address this?

boriboy@msn.com

[edit] soorry.... I was wrong (about the discrepancies above)

minor edit on the translation of the second song

equating borinqueno with the english word Puerto Rican while being somewhat synonymous isn't a good literal transalation since Puerto Rican refers to anyone of puertorican 'blood' while boricua (or the older version with slight variation borinqueno) refers more to a person living in the geographical area, sure I might be wrong on this but I know I'm right by translating borinqueno as literary as possible by putting it as boricua in english since that is the closest equivalent. And don't say it's not an english word because neither is non sequitur and nonchalant and hour'dourves (I know I spelt that wrong) or mosquito but we use them anyways, so just adapt this into the english language and deal with it

as for the part that says "riquenos" the most literal translation is ricans not puertoricans as innapropiate as this might sound it's what it is.

[edit] Lola Rodríguez's lyrics mixed with others?

Are the Doña Lola lyrics listed here inadvertenly mixed with a Pachin Marín version of the poem? I only remember the first and last stanzas to be hers... Demf 13:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unparsable sentence

"Astol's authorship of the melody is disputed (and, during his life, never contested this allegation)." I'm guessing that this means "…(and, during his lifetime, he never contested this allegation)." If that's what it means, then does this mean that the allegation was made during his lifetime? Because there is no later time when he could have disputed it! If that is what it means it should probably read, "Astol's authorship of the melody was disputed even during his lifetime, and he never contested the allegation that the tune was not his." Of course, if it means something else, then it is in even greater need of clarification. - Jmabel | Talk 19:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Here, I was quoting La Fortaleza's website, although I've heard and read this before elsewhere. Yep, the "he" was inadvertently left out. It seems to me from reading the quote that he was probably asked (maybe a few times) if he was NOT the author and didn't dispute it... most probably, he was vague about his role in writing the music. The most common version is that doña Lola asked him if he could give her a piece of music that could "arouse cannons and light up passions" (I'm paraphrasing) and he pulled out an arrangement for La Borinqueña. That's it. Unless we do get a direct quote from one of his acquaintances, we'll never know for sure. Demf 13:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
    Then I will edit accordingly
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