Talk:L. Ron Hubbard

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Contents 1 GAC 2 NPOV 3 Guiness cite 4 Parody and ridicule 5 Contents of L Ron Hubbard "parody" section--some of which should go back in a renamed section 6 majored

[edit] GAC

I reviewed this article on the following 7 criteria:

1. Well-written: Pass
2. Factually accurate: Pass
3. Broad: Pass
4. Neutrally written: Pass
5. Stable: Neutral
6. Well-referenced: Pass
7. Images: Pass

Congratulations, it passes. I gave Stable a neutral because it is a vandal target, but not a very big one, as it is currently being hit at 1 every 1 to 2 days. I was pleasantly surprised at the neutral handling of such a controversial man, and I would suggest that this article be sent to Peer Review in hopes of one day becoming a Featured Article. --PresN 20:28, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This reviewer is real lax in his criteria. LuciferMorgan 21:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure on the well written criteria. It certainly isn't NPOV though. There aren't many references. I'm gonna be bold and change the raiting. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you haven't given any specific examples of a lack of NPOV either here or your section below, I'm going to be bold and change it back to that given by the reviewer until you can provide such examples. --163.1.165.116 18:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

As much as I disagree with Scientology this article isn't NPOV. A good NPOV article should be able to be read by a reader without being able to tell the personal believes of the author(s) of the article. Upon reading this article, it appears obvious that it's collective authors, of content/editing that has been included, is anti-scientology. I haven't read the talk pages so I don't know who has written it. I'm not involved in this topic at all - I was just reading it. However, I read my talk pages periodically. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:39, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Will mark article as NPOV. --Signed by: Chazz - (responses). @ 16:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Anything specific? --Tilman 17:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Guiness cite

The Guiness citation at thebookstandard.com is for the previous Most Translated record from last year. It doesn't cover the new "Most Published" claim. (I believe Guinness probably did it, but anything in that first paragraph needs a cite or it'll be hit by a crossfire of edits.) AndroidCat 18:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parody and ridicule

The section "Parody" contains what is likely a lot of OR. If it does not say Hubbard by name then it is not a reference that can stand without a reliable source saying it is a reference to Hubbard. A parody or ridicule that names Hubbard by name is self-sourcing but its existence should still be sourced. I do not know what Antaeus has sourced on this last one but my guess is it is simply the source of what he considers a parody; not a source that says it is a parody of Hubbard. Antaeus would you please clarify what you have sourced. I do, of course, find it interesting that so many unsourced entries serving to ridicule Hubbard exist in the article. Do you think if I go over to the Catholic Pope article I will see a section entitled parody and reference to Battle Pope and every song that says "Fuck the pope?" Hmm, just checked and didn't see that parody section in the Pope article. Maybe we should add it. Since I am already being crude let me tell you what I really think. If some "artist" writes a song and it contains the lyric "L. Rob Hookah buttfucks pigs", why, someone would sure like to see that in the L. Ron Hubbard article. Simply because they figure it MUST be reference to LRH, and every scandalous reference to Hubbard belongs on wikipedia, doesn't it? So now we have managed to put a link between Hubbard and pig-fucking in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article on Hubbard. Great work! For someone, I guess. Someone with an agenda using wikipedia as a PR tool. And no one is "responsible". The person that wrote the song never said it was about Hubbard; no reliable source says it was about Hubbard; and of course the person that put it there is simply "contributing to wikipedia". How about we take a stand here. Let's pull the back-door unsourced slurs. Please. I would appreciate it if someone would stand up and start; if I do it is more "justanother POV". Thanks. --Justanother 03:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wake me up if you want to discuss something specific that is actually in the article, unlike wgertian-style pig relationships. AndroidCat 04:46, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Good morning; let's start with this one:

"In Neal Stephenson's book Snow Crash, there is a character named L. Bob Rife who has an ocean-going fleet centered on a surplus aircraft carrier, and populated by mind-controlled followers." Hubbard = Rife = mind-control.

Or this one:

"In the David Eddings series of Tamuli books, a silly theatrical character who performs and tells tall tales in front of locals to gain support for a strange cult is named Elron (L. Ron)." Hubbard = Elron = silly = liar = strange.

--Justanother 04:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should be as strict as justanother suggests in vetting parodies--the "Fallout" video game that features "Hubologists" is clearly a parody of Scientology, even though it doesn't say the word "Scientology" or "Hubbard"--I'd still call that self-verifying. But I think there should be some threshold of notability--every LRH joke on YouTube doesn't need to be listed.

More importantly, Justanother's larger question is a good one: why have this "parody" section at all? I'd say it's enough to mention that Hubbard has frequently been a figure of fun in popular culture, give a couple of examples, and put the rest of the info, to the extent it qualifies, in the dedicated article on cultural references to Scientology. That stuff is describing cultural references, not the life and works of Hubbard. Opinions? BTfromLA 06:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with BT on both counts: 1) the "parody" section, as just about any "list" section seems to do, has suffered from list creep; 2) Justanother is being unreasonably unreasonably strict in vetting parodies. I do not even understand what his accusation "I do not know what Antaeus has sourced on this last one but my guess is it is simply the source of what he considers a parody; not a source that says it is a parody of Hubbard" is supposed to mean. What is he alleging, and does his allegation fall within the boundaries of WP:AGF? Justanother clearly insisted on a citation which said "The character of L. Bob Rife is based on L. Ron Hubbard" and that's what he received; does he have any reason other than not actually wanting any such citation to exist or to be found for asserting that the citation he received must be other than what he requested? -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Antaeus, I apologize for misunderstanding what you had referenced. I cannot access that reference (here) without an account. Perhaps you have an access through a university. I did not know what you had referenced and I queried it. I apologize for guessing and guessing wrongly. If you would like to discuss this personal aspect further please feel free to address it on my talk page. If you have access to the full article and it sources that that was a reference to Hubbard then good find! and your word is certainly good enough for me.

As regard BT's proposal. My feeling is that the parody adds nothing of substance to the article, nothing of value about Hubbard, other than that Hubbard is/was parodied. Many, if not most, aspects of American culture are parodied. President Bush is parodied practically every week on Saturday Night Live yet I doubt that Bush's bio has a parody section (of course, it doesn't). For my money, a very prominent mention that he is parodied, even one placed in the intro area, then link to the already existing List of Scientology references in popular culture would do just fine and, as a side benefit, would avoid duplication of material. Ps; there is a great old "parodyish" ref in one of Heinlein's novels (Lazarus Long? Cat that walked through walls? Just found one mention that says it is in "Friday") about "queue battles" and how the Hubbardites (or something) were to be feared for their great organization during battle. --Justanother 19:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've taken the opinions of the three of us for a consensus, and changed the parody section accordingly. BTfromLA 04:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree with moving all of them. For example, The Rocket to the Morgue one is an interesting look at Hubbard in the 1941-42 period (even if not factual), and it has nothing to with Scientology. AndroidCat 05:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

To clarify -- they haven't been moved to the other article, only to here. I agreed that there was some list creep, but never meant to suggest that destroying the list was an adequate response. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. As well, the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature to Hubbard should be here. Like all lists, it will have to be pruned and kept pruned, but I don't think it can be cut to nothing. For other examples, the Pope was the wrong place to look. Obviously Justanother should have started with the King :) AndroidCat 11:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, comparing a single person (Hubbard) with a title that has been occupied by many different people over a couple of thousand years (the Pope) does not exactly make for an airtight argument... -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I overreacted by pulling the whole list out. I'll offer no objection if you folks want to restore a few well chosen examples, but the existing list seemed to me to have swollen in such a way as to wander pretty far from an encyclopedic treatment of Hubbard's life and works. BTfromLA 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly, the Ig Nobel award is a good one for the main article. LRH has won a ton of other awards, too. They have a place here also. What exactly is the purpose of the Rocket to the Morgue reference if it is possibly "not factual"? This is a biographical article. Are we making the point that he used pen names? That point is already made with factual data. He actually did get the Ig Noble so fine, include it. Re: the Pope, he is the subject of parody; parody not mentioned. Re: Bush (an individual), he is the subject of parody; parody not mentioned. I can find any number more. --Justanother 02:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The Rocket to the Morgue reference is interesting because of the character sketchs of the writers in California in 1941. Robert Heinlein is featured as well, including a number of actual details of his home. Since this was published in 1942, long before any polarization over Dianetics and Scientology, the book is something of a preserved time capsule of the F&SF writers and publishing business of that time (as seen by Anthony Boucher and interpreted for his fictional murder mystery, of course). This sort of Tuckerization (as it was later termed) is quite common, and is usually done as a fun in-joke. (Heh, I see Steve Stirling has gotten kinder in his Tuckerizations—he killed off most of the rest of the Bunch of Seven in his Drakka books!) AndroidCat 03:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds cool, I'll have to read it! Thanks --Justanother 03:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contents of L Ron Hubbard "parody" section--some of which should go back in a renamed section

Hubbard was awarded the 1994 Ig Nobel Prize in Literature for "his crackling Good Book, Dianetics, which is highly profitable to mankind — or to a portion thereof". The presenter observed he was also the most prolific posthumous author that year.

In 2001,an independent film called The Profit was produced, which featured a character called L. Conrad Powers, founder of the Church of Spiritual Science, who used a device called a Mind Meter. Although the producers stressed that any resemblance to Scientology was entirely coincidental, the Church of Scientology obtained an injunction blocking its release.^[1] However, some of those who saw the film, even critics of Scientology, derided it as over the top, and the organisation behind the film's production, Human Rights Cinema, was accused of being an anti-cult group.^[2][3]

On the South Park episode "Trapped in the Closet", it was claimed that Stan Marsh is L. Ron Hubbard reincarnated and that Hubbard was a "prophet". As a reference to Scientology's litigious tendencies, all the credits at the end of this episode were changed to read "John/Jane Smith". The episode also has an animated version of the Xenu story; in case a viewer might mistakenly think South Park was exaggerating for satiric effect, this sequence is accompanied by a caption reading "This is what Scientologists actually believe". Isaac Hayes, who voiced "Chef" on the show and is himself a Scientologist, ostensibly left the cast on account of this episode. However, it isn't clear whether this was his own decision or a decision of upper-level Scientologists; during a radio interview on The Opie and Anthony Show after the episode aired, Hayes defended South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone, saying, "If you take the shit they say seriously, then I'll sell you the Brooklyn Bridge for two dollars". South Park further parodied Scientology when Isaac Hayes left South Park over the issue: in The Return of Chef - "Chef" is portrayed as being brainwashed by some "fruity little club," a group of child molesters called the "Super Adventure Club", a veiled reference to Isaac Hayes and his links to Scientology.

Anthony Boucher's murder mystery Rocket to the Morgue (1942) features cameos of members of the Mañana Literary Society of Southern California. Hubbard makes a dual appearance as D. Vance Wimpole and Rene Lafayette (one of his pen names). Jack Parsons is also there as the character "Hugo Chantrelle".

In Frank Zappa's rock-opera album Joe's Garage the main character Joe seeks advice from L. Ron Hoover of the First Church of Appliantology, who directs him to a lifestyle of having sex with appliances and robots.

In the David Eddings series of Tamuli books, a silly theatrical character who performs and tells tall tales in front of locals to gain support for a strange cult is named Elron (L. Ron).

Philip K. Dick's short story The Turning Wheel features a post-apocalyptic religion following the teachings of "the Bard, Elron Hu".

Niven and Pournelle's novel Inferno (a retelling of Dante's Inferno) has a description of a one-time science fiction writer who created his own religion "that masks as form of lay psychiatry" and is now - quite literally - in hell as a result.

There have also been numerous other jabs at L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology from other sources; for example, the final city in the computer game Fallout 2 contains the Hubologist cult which is a direct take on Scientology.

Hubbard is also a featured character in the novel The Chinatown Death Cloud Peril by Paul Malmont.

On the Millennium episode "Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense", the (fictional) writer Jose Chung interviews a member of the "Church of Selfosophy", founded by his former science fiction writer colleague, "J. Onan Goopta".

Steve Martin's movie, Bowfinger, features a cult called "Mindhead" whose posh celebrity center is said to be based on a Hollywood facility serving Scientology's star clientele.

Steven Soderbergh's 1996 comedy Schizopolis features a cult called Eventualism led by one T. Azimuth Schwitters which is seemingly inspired by Hubbard.

In Neal Stephenson's book Snow Crash, there is a character named L. Bob Rife who has an ocean-going fleet centered on a surplus aircraft carrier, and populated by mind-controlled followers.^[4]

The Snake Oil Wars by Parke Godwin satirizes Hubbard by having him serving his time in Hell as an answering machine.

The song Ænema, by the band Tool, denounces Hubbard with the line "...fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones."

The satirical art religion "The Church of the SubGenius" has as its prophet and Messiah figure a 1950's appliance salesman named J.R. "Bob" Dobbs, whose image of an always-smiling, pipe-smoking, Brylcreem covered head is appropriated from 1950's clip art. The Texas based group also integrates elements of Fundamentalist Christianity and televangelists into their writings and media projects.

L-Ron, a sentient robot from the DC Comics universe, and former assistant to Manga Khan, is named after Hubbard, as other robot assistants Khan of were named after science fiction writers (Hein-9, K-Dikk).

In the 1986 film, Stoogemania, which deals with a Three Stooges fan (Josh Mostel) attempting to break his addiction to the comedy threesome, said fan ends up going to a rehab clinic run by a mysterious figure named "L. Ron Howard" ('Howard' being the last name shared by Moe, Curly and Shemp). "L. Ron Howard" only appears on TV screens at the clinic - he is never seen in person.

[edit] majored

Could someone with knowledge about US academic szene check whether it is correct to claim that Ron "majored" in Civil Engineering? According to wikipedia [1], it means "the primary focus of a Bachelor's degree". Taking one course for one semester [2] isn't a "primary focus". --Tilman 18:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Usually, in a four-year school, you get on a "major track" right from the get-go. I do not know what LRH's major was. And I do not know how that school was structured in the 30's. From the transcript it looks like engineering. We could perhaps say he majored in engineering then. I assumed that the "took a course in" was UK for "majored in" because what would be the point otherwise of mentioning that one course out of 20 (of course I get the point of mentioning the other, nuclear physics). --Justanother 18:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you go:

In September of 1930, Ron was admitted to George Washington University School of Engineering with a major in civil engineering.

From a source you would most likely respect (joke - I sure don't but useful for some stuff).--Justanother 18:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)