Talk:Kyusho-jitsu
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[edit] Earlier discussions
I have removed the following passages to this page:
"It is used in many fighting sports from karate to jujutsu to boxing." This requires a cite: The author needs to verify the exceptionally unlikely notion that "kyusho jitsu" is a component of karate, jujutsu, or boxing.
- This is actually correct; please see my note below. Dillman's stuff is sheer fantasy, but applying force to nerves and other sensitive spots is part of many martial arts curricula. I'll see if I can find an appropriate article summarizing their use in various arts, and update this page. --GenkiNeko 16:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
"Unlike many martial arts, kyusho can be adapted to be used with almost any martial art or on its own and can be used to heal as well as attack." This statement makes a number of unfounded and/or biased assumptions:
1) That there is a fundamental flaw in "many" martial arts; 2) That "kyusho jitsu" has medicinal benefits; 3) That these medicinal benefits exceed the medicinal benefits of "many" other martial arts; 4) That "many" other martial arts cannot be "adapted to be used with almost any martial art".
Roundeyesamurai 06:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] George Dillman redirect
I believe that George Dillman should not be redirected here.
Why not? He created kyusho jitsu, and kyusho jitsu is the only noteworthy thing about him. Roundeyesamurai 14:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
- I was thinking of a biographical page.
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- I would also object here. While George Dillman made up a goofy neo-ninja art called "kyushojitsu", the term "kyushojutsu" has been used before - long before Dillman - to describe pressure point techniques in various martial arts traditions. They are obviously different from his "magical" conception; more like "if you press here with your knuckle as you apply this hold, it hurts a lot more." Someone could similarly make up a neo-art, called "kiaijutsu", wherein they yell at people and they explode into bloody goo. This would not change the fact that "kiaijutsu" is a perfectly reasonable martial arts term for kiai techniques.
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- I would particularly like to point out that "jutsu" does not properly imply a complete art, but often only a set of techniques that forms the component of an art. This, a koryu school might have taijutsu ("body art"; i.e. unarmed techniques study) and kenjutsu ("sword art") elements. --GenkiNeko 16:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I think this article focuses to much on Dillman - as an outsider, I was left with the impression that kyusho-jitsu was entirely created as a marketing scheme for Dillman. While I believe it should be of note to those wishing to investigate the practicing of kyusho-jitso, I think he should only be mentioned in a paragraph towards the end of the article. Is there anyway to get more info on non-Dillman related KJ? B.K. 02:32, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reference Edits
I have included George Dillman reference to the Kyusho Jitsu page and made a reference from this page to him. I agree with one of the previous editors that George Dillman should not be redirected to this page, that makes no sense. He is a practitioner of Kyusho Jitsu, one of the first researchers on kata hidden moves, and how these moves were hidden and bringing them back into Martial Arts. He deserves mention.
I've inlcuded Wally Jay as reference for similar reasons as George Dillman. -(unsigned)
Wally Jay should not be included in this article. Although he may have been a "friend" of Dillman's (and the term "friend" can have quite a few distinctly different meanings), someone must produce evidence that Jay "integrated" kyusho jitsu into his training program (see following section). Roundeyesamurai 14:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Removed From Article
I have removed the following statement from the article:
"Kyusho jitsu is currently being integrated into many martial arts and is used to suppliment current training. George Dillman, was one of the first to start this process in North America. Others include Wally Jay founder of Small Circle Jujitsu."
This is not only absurd, but the contributor of this statement gives no evidence to support the assertion. Roundeyesamurai 14:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Hey, could you guys help me out? What is the difference between kyusho jitsu and Dim Mak? Thanks for helping. -DJ
- Hi DJ, sorry I didn't see this sooner.
- Suffice to say- from a technical standpoint, aside from the language of the day used in training there is very little difference in the core techniques of both.
- In terms of history, there is a significant difference. Dim Mak is more-or-less a product of legend in China dating back centuries (and very likely, most of this legendary status is based on apocryphal tales). Kyusho jitsu, on the other hand, is a modern invention (roughly mid-1960's), which has been claimed by its inventor to have roots in dim mak.
- I'm afraid anything more would be difficult to discuss without violating wikipedia standards of discourse. Roundeyesamurai 00:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh, thanks for helping me. I'm a big fan of Avatar: The Last Airbender, and one of the characters, Ty Lee, uses a form of martial arts that blocks chi flow and attack pressure points, there was a big arguement thing about wheither it was dim mak or kyusho jitsu. Now I know that there is hardly any difference! I feel better. Thanks for the help! DJ168.212.126.169 16:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
No problem DJ.
Personally, as much as I am loathe to discuss cartoon/video game/movie martial arts, it seems that the folks who produce Avatar do, at least, go to some effort to research the subject. Bearing this in mind, I would say almost certainly that it would be a reference to Dim Mak. Roundeyesamurai 22:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
They did do a lot of research for the martail arts for the show. They have a tai chi/kung fu teacher Sifu Kisu who does the martial arts stuff, so all the martail art moves are actual moves. The four bendings styles are as followed, Waterbending- Tai Chi, Earthbending- Hung Gar (minus Toph Bei Fong, who's earthbending is rooted in the Chu Gar Southern Praying Mantis Style), Firebending- Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, and Airbending- Ba Gua. Ty Lee's is kyusho jitsu/Dim Mak. They even have a cultural consltant to make sure that the show is a realistic to the cultures the four nations are being mirrored. Water Tribe- Inuit, Earth Kingdom- Korean, Fire Nation- Chinese (though there is some Japanese in it) and Air Nomads- Tibetian Monks. The creators took a lot of time and effort to make the show as acturate as possible. Its very good you should watch it sometimes. You might like it. -DJZutara and Taang FOREVER 16:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Another Removal
"72.192.198.91" edited the article to include this paragraph:
- "The words Kyusho jitsu (from Japanese: 急所術 kyūsho jutsu) have different meanings. For some, it is a martial art which emphasizes the attack of pressure points on the body. Many people who believe this, also believe that kyusho jitsu has been created by George Dillman in the 1960s although he denies this - claiming a history for the style which predates the 20th century. For others, kyusho jitsu is one of the layers that complete a well rounded martial art, among other layers such as striking, grappling, throwing, joint locking, etc. Traditional martial artists believe that in Asian martial arts, a student is not granted access to kyusho jitsu knowledge unless proving worthy of getting it. However, Western martial arts industry offers some training for a price."
This paragraph is purely bunk, for the following reasons:
1) " For others, kyusho jitsu is one of the layers that complete a well rounded martial art..."
Who are these others? Aside from those who engage in the practice of "kyusho jitsu", that is (and they are not an impartial or neutral party).
2) "Traditional martial artists believe that in Asian martial arts, a student is not granted access to kyusho jitsu knowledge unless proving worthy of getting it."
This sentence is so absurd as to be laughable. This, and the preceeding sentences, make the statement that "kyusho jitsu" is a requisite part of a martial arts curriculum, and is a "trade secret" (for lack of a better term) amongst all "credible" martial arts. No martial art other than "kyusho jitsu" utilizes "kyusho jitsu" methodology, and it is incredibly dishonest to purport otherwise. Only those who listen to Dillman believe this lie- and make no mistake: though the word "lie" is a strong word to use, it is indeed a "lie" by any definition of the term.
3) "However, Western martial arts industry offers some training for a price."
This is nothing short of a demonization of any martial art which "competes" with "kyusho jitsu". It is an indoctrination story told to "kyusho jitsu" practicioners.
Roundeyesamurai 08:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC) (And look, I actually bothered to register a Wikipedia account, unlike the previous "Editor".)
I reverted another edit by "JJL", for the same reasons I reverted the ryukyu edit. I also added an edit to address FireBird's issue regarding the statement "widely regarded". Thank you for pointing out that that statement was improperly worded. Roundeyesamurai 03:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Real" Kyusho-jutsu
I'm concerned that this focuses too much on Dillman. As far as I know, "kyusho-jutsu" is an actual martial arts term: not for an entire school, but rather (read literally) for pressure point techniques. Many schools contain a pressure point component. Even, say, aikido includes a few techniques which include nerve pressure. Not as a magical way of knocking someone out from ten feet away, but as a way to further secure a hold. Some police practice similar techniques.
In short, I think that while Dillman's zaniness certainly deserves a mention somewhere, this article should properly focus on the actual martial arts term "kyushojutsu."
Perhaps we could redirect "Kyushojitsu" to Dillman, and use the more standard romanization, kyushojutsu to point to the general MA topic? --GenkiNeko 16:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That would be a great idea GenkiNeko- assuming that there were a distinction. If you can credibly establish one, great! Roundeyesamurai 03:39, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'll see if I can find some good articles discussing the term as a generic martial arts term. Although Dillman is quite a humorous fellow, this article's present state might confuse people, if they think the phrase refers specifically to this wacky neo-ninja-type art. --GenkiNeko 04:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh. Do you mean the jutsu/jitsu thing? Well, actually, the character is properly read (in this compound) 'jutsu'. Jitsu is a somewhat archaic romanization of the Japanese phonetic character. (Hence, you see 'jiujitsu', 'jujitsu', and all kinds of wacky variants, which date back to older Western texts.) But it would be a convenient way to distinguish between Mr. Dillman's ... "art" ... and the martial arts phrase. --GenkiNeko 04:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you GenkiNeko, I wasn't familiar with the "jutsu/jitsu" distinction- after all, I've only been in the martial arts for 26 years (sarcasm).
What I am referring to is the fact that there has never been any credible evidence given that "kyusho jitsu" (or "jutsu") existed at any time prior to the 1960's. The only evidence given is Dillman's own evidence. Since Dillman lacks credibility, the "proof" he provides also lacks credibility.
Dillman may be a "character", I don't know him personally. I do know, however, that most of what comes out of his mouth is pure poppycock, and that has been proven time and time again (ref. the Nat'l Geo. paragraph in the article, for one).
So, if you have verifiable, credible evidence of the existence of "kyusho jitsu" prior to the 1960's, and it does not come from Dillman, or one of his students, or someone in his employ, then please add it, as I (for one) would be delighted to see it.
Roundeyesamurai 11:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- Oh! My apologies. :) I did some searching, and this article came up:
- http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=40
- While I was fairly sure (as I imagine you are, since you're like a billion times my senior - sorry again!) that pressure point techniques existed, I wasn't sure about the specific name "kyusho-jutsu" being used. That article seems to suggest that it is in fact a name that is used. --GenkiNeko 19:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Good article, we definitely should incorporate it into the article, and reduce the Dillman angle to a blurb. I'll start on that as soon as I have the time, unless you'd like to do it yourself. If you have more article, please post them! Roundeyesamurai 01:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, there is also this one:
- http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=41
- There was also a good e-budo.com discussion about pressure points recently - actually, also spurred on by Dillman's antics. Ellis Amdur, among others, weighed in on the role of pressure points in their arts. I think the consensus was that they're useful at times, but historical martial artists chose to relegate them to a secondary role for the most part, since they're not as crucial as other elements. --GenkiNeko 01:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Ellis still posts on E-Budo? I thought he took off from there years ago!
If more material of this type can be delivered, fantastic- I would love nothing better than to relegate the material relating to Dillman to a small paragraph, and give much more about other, legitimate, kyushojutsu exponents. (Legitimate) Historical information would be most beneficial of all. Roundeyesamurai 05:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
