Talk:Kyokushin

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
This page is part of the Wikipedia Martial Arts Project.

Please help ensure that it follows those guidelines as much as is reasonable;
if you do not agree with those guidelines, please help us improve them!
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Kyokushin is part of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Japan To-do:

Contents

[edit] Logo

Doesn't kyokushin have a logo? Shouldn't it be here? When I was a kyokushin-karate-ka we had the calligraphy on our gi but the logo on our bumper sticker/newsletter/IKO membership certificate. It is an abstract representation of two hands joined together (from some high-level kata) --Taejo 21:02, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oyama killed in self defence?

Oyama killed people in self defence - really? And if so, it does not have much to do with the effectiveness of the style. I find the text just a tiny bit biassed. Habj 17:57, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] No one-hit-kill punch

There is no one hit-one kill punch! This refers to the fighting method and strategy and not to a specific technique. Ending a fight with a single strike is desired in most martial arts, not necessarily killing the opponent. For that matter, killing someone with a single strike is something anyone can do (think neck), a martial artist just has more options and can do it easier. It has nothing to do with skill, unless it is achieved by rapturing one's liver with a 3-inch punch in the middle of a fight or something similar. Fighting a huge animal (even if it is drugged, as is claimed by some) and killing it or breaking its horns with your bare hands is a demonstration of courage and skill. --62.254.128.4 03:13, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Response to the above critism

For the self Defense, and the one hit, one kill punch. Oyama has killed several people with his bare hands, and has killed bulls with the, one hit one kill punch. Proved beyond reasonable doubt this martial art can teach you how to kill people, and is effective in combat. It showed Oyama bptj survived, and Oyama has successfully used this legendary punch. It's not easy, as most regular people will break their hands attempting such a dangerious manuever, it is not recommanded most people try it. For historical purposes, this manuever has been associated with Oyama. As well as other moves Oyama has demonstrated his skill in such as, chopping off the tops off beer bottles, and breaking ice. --Masssiveego 05:52, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

the dude killed bears and bulls with his hands. you do that without training and then come back and say the art is ineffective.

[edit] Citizenship

I thought this guys citizenship was Korean and he lived in Japan. So he is not a Korean-Japanese. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:14, 12 June 2005.

He was naturalized as a Japanese citizen. Feigenbaum 07:00, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How was he naturalized as a citizen, when citizenship in Japan up to past the time of his death was still based on heritage not where you lived or even where you were born. There are Koreans today that still can't get citizenship in Japan eventhough they were born in Japan and have never set foot in Korea. Did Japan make an exception for him cause he was such a Champion? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.23.83.100 (talk • contribs) 06:21, 24 June 2005.

You are wrong. More than 200 thousand ethnic Koreans have naturalized. He was one of them. Feigenbaum 03:37, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

The citizenship law was changed only after the mid 1980s, I thought he died in the 1990s. He couldn't have been a citizen in the 1960s or 70s or half way in to the 80s. Did they change the law for him in the 1960s, 70s or mid 80s.4.23.83.100 12:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

He travelled all over the world during the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. What kind of passport did he carry with him? -- Toytoy 18:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cyberdojo

I see that 137.132.3.11 made quite a large contribution, but what is "Cyberdojo home page" doing in there? MarSch 15:45, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Logo(2)

Logo seems to be there now, however the subscript isn't completely visible. Intinn 09:37, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Article Improvement

It appears that some have been working on this article recently to try and improve it, but it appears to need some more work. I'll work on it myself, but I'll offer some suggestions here of what the article could probably use if others would like to help-out:

  • A short bio of its founder (Mas Oyama) under a "history" heading with a link to the Mas Oyama full entry plus more history of the style from its founding to the present day
  • More info on the technique of Kyokushin and influences from other styles
  • More on the "full-contact" aspect of the style since this is such an important part of Kyokushin and its influence on other full-contact styles, also, the role of full contact kumite in Kyokushin training and belt/grade testing
  • Info on the role and history of competition, challenges, and tournament participation in Kyokushin culture
  • Perhaps a list of major Kyokushin tournaments? (All-Japan, All-World, America's Cup, etc.)
  • Discussion of the 100-man kumite
  • Mention of notable Kyokushin practitioners and how many of them have started their own styles or become notable competitors in MMA organizations
  • Interaction of early Kyokushin students/instructors with other styles such as Muay Thai, "Kung Fu," Judo, etc
  • More on the succession controversy that has fractured Kyokushin into so many different organizations within Japan and around the world
  • Issues between Kyokushin, other karate organizations, and the International Olympic Committee over the inclusion of karate as an event in the Olympics
  • Some pictures of Kyokushin practioners engaged in competition and/or training
  • Kyokushin's portrayal in popular culture or in the media (Japanese manga, any movies that use Kyokushin fighters or techniques, the documentary "Fighting Black Kings," etc.)
  • Efforts by the "Kyokushin Union" to persuade Kyokushin dojo to leave the different IKO organizations and form a looser organization of more independent dojo

Kyokushin is such a major force (my POV, of course) in the karate and martial arts environment, that I think its entry should be larger and more detailed than it currently is, since Wikipedia is the de facto Internet encyclopedia. Check out the entries for Judo, TaeKwanDo, Hapkido, or Muay Thai to see good examples of entries on martial arts styles. cla68, 24 Mar 06

AGREED. This page needs lots of work and is currently too garbled with information unnecessary and not orderly. I suggest cleaning up the links section and adding more graphics/images to help with the verbiage clutter.

[edit] Oh really?

Sorry, but I really doubt this style has practitioners in the numbers that are wildly speculated on in the article. I've never even heard of the style before today, which suggests to me that the "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" is way off.

Yeah, I also have issues with the neutrality of the article. It is very clear from reading that the author was not only a practitioner but was of the opinion that Kyokushin is superior to other styles. 207.161.43.160 01:09, 10 May 2006 (UTC)Matt

If you count the number of practitioners claimed by all the organizations with "Kyokushin" in their name, plus all of the "offshoot" organizations, it probably is in the hundreds of thousands. I myself doubt the "millions" number, unless it includes everyone in the world who has ever practiced full contact karate, even if just for a short time, since 1954. This article doesn't receive edits or inputs very often. What it has now has been added little by little over about two years time by what appears to be many different editors. Some of them do better than others at writing in NPOV. If you see something wrong, please correct it. The article could really use more input. Cla68 17:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kata

I have added a list of the northern katas, is it appropriate to make them dead links for now in the hope that someone will fill in instructions on the katas later?

--24.195.60.53 13:27, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Some Wikipedia community contributors don't like dead links in articles, but I don't think it's a big deal unless the article is being submitted for "featured article" status. It's great to see people contributing to and improving this article as time goes by. Cla68 15:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the ura kata should be described. They involve turning backward any time stepping in. It doesn't seem that they should get their own page, but I don't know if they are unique to Kyokushin. I am adding a description of ura kata and those explicitly listed plain text instead of links. if it would be more appropriate to add an Ura Kata page, and make these piped links. Pohart 02:29, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mas Oyama vs his original Korean name

There's a certain Wikipedia contributor who appears dedicated to reminding everyone that Mas Oyama is a Korean by birth. The thing that he (or she) needs to remember, is that Mas lived most of his life in Japan, speaking the Japanese language, leading a Japanese organization with more than 90% Japanese members, and passed-away in Japan at the end of his life. His life and his karate style is a Japanese story, whether everyone accepts it or not. It's appropriate to mention that Mas Oyama was born in Korea with a Korean name originally. However, it's just as appropriate to write about his life as a member of Japanese society, which means using his Japanese name and nationality as his primary identifier. As far as I know, Mas Oyama went to his deathbed (in Japan) speaking Japanese to his Japanese disciples without repudiating his Japanese heritage and history. Revisionist or POV history does both his legacy, and his follower's legacy a disservice, and, in my opinion is both arrogant, myopic, juvenile, and inappropriate. If you don't agree, please state your case here and please sign-off with a user name instead of an anonymous IP address. Any questions? Cla68 04:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Gichin Funokoshi never taught Okinawan Karate. It was Chojun Miyagi that first assembled this style. Funokshi established the Shotokan Karate.

[edit] Bobby Lowe?

You placed Bobby Lowe under "Notable Kyokushin practitioners (former or current)"? He died long before the establishment of Mas Oyama's career! -- Toytoy 18:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

This link was incorrectly pointing at Bobby Lowe, the baseball player. There is another Bobby Lowe in Hawaii that is a Shihan within the Kyokushin IKO1 organization. Someone has made the correction to the link to a new page for Shihan Bobby Lowe. -- Sakeshotz 13:21 August 2006

[edit] Sparring (Kumite)

Over the time Kyokushin sparring rules have evolved becoming less dangerous for the participants but also distanced from "anything goes" competitions like modern MMA or even Muay Thai. Principle of staying "as close to real life fight as possible" was interpreted as sparing with full force while wearing no protection (no gloves or body armor). The fighters must condition entire body in order to withstand kicks and punches, at the same time elaborating even more powerful kicks and punches to defeat the opponent. The Kyokushin fighters achieve impressive striking power: i.e., Hiroki Kurosawa have demonstrated a 1.420 kg strong kick (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_speed.htm) and Franz Rasmussen was reportedly able to rip 4 bottlenecks with a single strike (http://superkarate.ru/record/h_record_tam.htm). Opponents need to be able to withstand impact of such force in order to survive the full-contact fight.

At the same time, the "wearing no protections" requirement rules out punch to the face (or neck) in the sport events like kumite competitions. Some prominent Kyokushin fighters insist additional boxing or kickboxing training is a must for Kyokushin practitioners (interview with Elena Vorobyeva, http://superkarate.ru/inter/inter_vorobyeva.htm).

These guidelines define Kyokushin fight. The opponents typically (but not always) fight in close distance, as there is no need to defend from head punches. "Clean" or "well-performed" techniques are not rewarded in any way; only way to assure victory is to actually knock down the opponent. The punches are usually short and quick, kicks are often low-kicks; elbows and knees are also used. Opponents try to fight with full power, using combinations of 2-3 elements (punch-punch-kick, kick-punch-punch or similar). Fights are physically exhausting, therefore experienced fighters tend to spare energy for later stages of the fight, hoping to defeat emaciated opponent.

In general, Kyokushin rules allow relatively "safe" full-contact sparing, minimizing possibility of head trauma. Critics usually argue that Kyokushin training develops wrong fighting skills - too little attention to head defense, too much focus on defending torso area, inappropriate fighting distance, undeveloped head punch skills. Proponents usually point out that experienced fighters after some boxing training are able to successfully participate in K1 and similar championships, and minimized head trauma attracts people who don’t want full contact fight but not permanent brain damage.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../k/y/o/Talk%7EKyokushin_bdc8.html"