Talk:Kyōiku kanji

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The Kyouiku list is 1006 *without* the roman numerals; you can run a kanji count on the list given in this article and see that.

Is there some reason you're using circumflexes instead of macrons for long vowels? adamrice 03:52, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I did that because it was the way it was spelled on the French Wikipedia page, and googling was inconclusive. But if you think it makes more sense to go with the macrons, I have no objection to that. I'm not an expert on this subject, and I'll defer. --Arcadian 04:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 subpages 2 Romanization 3 Pronounce 4 996 vs 1006 5 Table format? 6 Meaning of 本 7 ON and kun 8 Table 9 Hyperlink Underlining 10 Move this page to an English title?

[edit] subpages

Hi. Aren't all those links with kanji information better placed in the wiktionary? Therefore, wouldn't it be better if they link directly to wiktionary entries? Another case would be if there would be some additional information, but all I could think of is info as how to learn them, e.g. "looks like...", i.e. according to some system, and this would be a case for wikibooks. Therefore, move to wiktionary all those other pages? Ben (talk) 06:58, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

• There are also many links to pages that bear no connection to the kanji character, e.g. shima links to island. Does this make sense? I think it doesn't. Ben (talk) 07:01, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Romanization

Hi! I'm currently learning Japanese and it would be a great aid if someone completes the romanization on the page. I then could memorize all the words and continue to Joyo kanji.

[edit] Pronounce

Is it really a good idea to add alternative pronunciations to the kanjis that are listed on this article? Kanji characters all have several different ways of being used and pronounced, but I think we'd rather leave all the other possibilities out. The character set is complex in nature. I think the article was already good enough while listing pretty much just one pronunciation for each kanji (which I think are the most known ones, but that's just my opinion), but someone just added at least another one to almost all characters listed here. By the looks, they seem all on-yomi to me, and they were added before the pronunciations that were already there. On most cases, those are the uses for compounds, not the characters alone. I think that's not a very good idea. It looks too confusing. I vote to keep it the way it was before.

What do you think?--Kaonashi 02:46, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion the pronunciations are totally off the topic of the article unless they are the same pronunciations as the kyouiku kanji themselves. The kyouiku kanji consists of a set of kanji and their readings, the readings are learnt at different school years as well as the kanji. The English "meanings" are irrelevant - they don't belong here at all - the page is about the Japanese system of kyouiku kanji, and what the kanji mean in English has nothing to do with that. Also, synchronizing the meanings should they turn out to be mistaken is a big job. Meanings can be handled by links alone and should be removed from here. --DannyWilde 04:12, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

If what you say it true (and probably is), I guess it's beyond my knowledge in Japanese. My opinion is that it was better the way it was before. I think those anonymous changes only made things a lot more confusing. Like I said before, we're dealing with something that can't be easily explained. It's complex in nature, so I think the simpler, the better. This might sound silly, but the way it was (one "obvious" pronunciation and the most "obvious" meaning in English) might be inaccurate and inappropriate, but I think it worked. At least, worked better than it does now.

But yes, if you can, you should try doing what you said. If someone disagrees, it can be discussed here.--Kaonashi 04:49, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I strongly support Danny on this one. It's a common misconception that kyouiku kanji is just a list of characters. It's not: it's a list of characters and their readings. This page is therefore incomplete until the readings are added, including an indication of which are on and which are kun. The linked kanji in Wiktionary do not contain this information either; just a list of all readings, whether official or not. English meanings, though strictly speaking off-topic, are useful. --Auximines 17:46, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe also worth pointing out that some readings are taught at higher school years. For example a kanji taught in the first year might have a reading taught in the second year as well, so to be 100% accurate, the table should reflect that - there should be extra readings for kanji X in year Y as well as the initial entry. Also, the list of kanji taught changes sometimes. In order to get this table right, someone needs to get hold of recent information and go through and check the whole table and add the readings for the years. As I said above I don't think the "meanings" are appropriate. --DannyWilde 00:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 996 vs 1006

Let's count the kanjis:

• First grade (80 kanji)
• Second grade (160 kanji)
• Third grade (200 kanji)
• Fourth grade (200 kanji)
• Fifth grade (185 kanji)
• Sixth grade (181 kanji)

So:

• First 2 grades: 80+160=240 kanji
• First 3 grades: 240+200=440 kanji
• First 4 grades: 440+200=640 kanji
• First 5 grades: 640+185=825 kanji
• First 6 grades: 825+181=1006 kanji

So it's 1006 kanji without Roman numerals, not 996 kanji + 10 Roman numerals. Something is wrong in the article's introduction. Taw 18:43, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Table format?

I've done a quick stab at reformatting the page into table format at User:Tobias Wolter/Kyouiku Kanji This also fixed up some formatting errors in general (my regexp didn't convert those and made me look again), but there's still some points open:

• Using hiragana for the readings?
• An extra column for special readings?
  • Which of those are special readings, anyway?
• Checking for errors in general.

RFC, please. --towo 01:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there a reason why the readings are written in romaji rather than in hiragana? I don't really see the use of knowing the reading of a kanji without being able to read hiragana. Erikku 03:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to know which are on and which are kun readings. --Auximines 22:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest making a table with just the kanji, with each kanji linked to the Wiktionary as it is now. In my opinion, the layout and order of the kanji should be the same as in this Monbusho page [1], making the article much more readable than it is now. I don't know if it is an issue, but when the article is 58 KB long now, which exceeds the recommended 50 KB for a Wikipedia article (see Article size). This might be good to keep in mind when thinking of adding or deleting the readings and meanings.

However, if there is a consensus to keep the readings, they should be selected with care. As it is now, someone seem to have personally selected one or two common readings, regardless of how many readings a kanji has. We need to decide how the readings are to be selected, and also make a clear statement about it in the article. I suppose the best thing would be to write all readings taught, but I see at least two problems with this: (1) the size of the article would become even bigger than it is now, and (2) I don't know of a reliable source to get that information from. This page has information on readings not taught at first grade (and up), but I don't know how trustworthy this information is.

Finally, I don't see why the meaning needs to be written. A kanji can often not be explained in a single word - it needs an explanation, and such explanations are already written in the Wiktionary pages, which are linked to. Erikku 04:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

For them to be useful, they should reflect the meanings that are taught when they're introduced. That's a bit of a slippery concept, though. They're generally introduced as single-kanji words (usually using the kun-yomi), like 出る, and then used in various combinations, like 出口, that may or may not share a degree of meaning. Book (本) and Thursday (木よう日) don't share any meaning at all.　I think they end up being useless -- but they provide a certain comfort factor for English speakers that I can't really argue against. Bob Kerns 09:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of 本

本 is given as meaning 'book', doesn't it mean (also) 'root', 'origin' and 'base'? those meanings seem to me at least as much important. Plch 12:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

A good reason is that 'book' is the meaning that it taught at this level. Remember, these are young kids. They will learn the other meanings in later years. I don't have any references to when (and whether it's officially part of the　教育漢字), but I do remember it happening. (My experience is limited to helping with homework up to 三年生 -- third grade). This is similar to the various yomi -- typically only one or two are taught initially. For 本, they'll learn "book", but they'll also learn 日本 and 木よう日 (they don't learn the 曜 in 木曜日 until later). Bob Kerns 08:50, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ON and kun

It's great to have this list with all the main translations. But why is there no distinction between ON and kun ? Also, as someone mentionned, the pronunciation should rather be in kana. Hiragana for kun and katakana for ON as it is standard. Having ON and kun yomi all mixed up is somewhat confusing.

[edit] Table

I've taken a first cut at splitting out the kun and on, but I encourage others more familiar with Japanese to check for errors. --Arcadian 19:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a notation on what the hyphens in the kun-yomi are about would be in order. I'm not used to seeing it in romaji, so I was thrown for a bit, myself. (The part on the left is the yomi; the part on the right is the "standard, dictionary" inflection of a word typically using it. For example, やはーい: 早い, which could also occur as 早く or 早かった) Bob Kerns 09:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hyperlink Underlining

I don't know what's possible in the WikiPedia formatting engine and CSS, but it would be nice to suppress the underlines in the links to the character pages. For one thing, it makes 一 look like 二. It's OK in running text, but the point here is to display the character. Bob Kerns 09:21, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move this page to an English title?

I tend to think that this page ought to move to an English title, such as Japanese kanji curriculum or something similar. No one will be searching for this unless they already know what the name of the standard curriculum is in Japanese. What the page should be called in English, though, is something I am not certain of. - Smerdis of Tlön 17:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. The fact that you don't even know what to call it in English suggests that any English name for the list is not well-established (nor is it Wikipedia's place to try to establish one). "Kyoiku kanji," (along with Joyo/Toyo kanji) OTOH, is pretty well-established among people marginally conversant with Japanese. adamrice 18:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)