Talk:Kwakwaka'wakw

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[edit] "...pronounced Kwa-gyu-th"

Tsk tsk...nonstandard pronunciation guide. I would imagine "Kwaikiutl" is pronounced something like /kʷaikiutɬ/, but I don't really know. If anyone else does know, please do change it; ultimately, though, I guess it's not actually a big deal, in the scheme of things. And I don't want to edit it without knowing how it really is pronounced. --Whimemsz 05:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

Don't even try your own IPA on that one; and actually I think it's closer to Kwagyulh as already in the article; Kwak'wala sounds are diabolical in their subtlety and the difficulty by which they translate to English-friendly transliterations; hence Laich-kwil-tach vs Yuculta or Euclataws, the historic-literature names for them; even though, oddly, Laich-kwil-tach looks remarkably Gaelic in flavour, as if by accident. I think I might have a source/ref on the proper IPA and somewhere in my mailboxes is an old correspondent who was a doc student who was Kwakwaka'wakw but living in Seattle; she or someone like her in my files should be able to help. And besides, it's not "Kwaikiutl" anyway; it's "Kwakiutl" and that happens to be preferred by the Fort Rupert people or someone else up that way; it gets complicated and I can never remember who's who.Skookum1 10:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks for the info. (I keep misspelling it as "Kwaikiutl." Damn.) --Whimemsz 00:13, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Oweeykyala link? and Kwakiutl disambig

Um, I see there's a Wakashan language link; I'm always vague on the boundary bewtween Kwak'wala speaking peoples and their northern neighbours, who are also Wakashan and similar in language to Kwak'wala (moreso than Nuu-chah-nulth or Makah, which are also Wakashan); just figure they should be linked here somehow. Ultimately Kwakiutl has to become a disambiguation page because of the other flavours of Kwakiutl than the Kwakwaka'wakw group; who are the largest, but the term has strong political/organizational associations, which is why I created Laich-kwil-tach and will get around to Kwagyulh and others when I get the chance.Skookum1 10:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Haida Totem pole.jpg

I know that Image:Haida Totem pole.jpg features a Kwakwaka'wakw big house, but is the totel pole from the same nation? If so, the image could be featured here. -- TheMightyQuill 14:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No, totally absolutely not. You'd offend the Kwakwaka'wakw majorly by doing that, too. Totem poles are badges of chiefly/noble lineage and community legacy, much like an escutcheon/coat-of-arms; it would be like putting the coat of arms of Bosnia on a Croat or Serb castle, or expecting an American household to be happy having a Union Jack on the lawn instead of the Stars and Stripes; although the old animosities on the Coast are long-gone. There's also a huge difference in the art style between Haida and Kwakiutl styles; Haida have deeper, almost 3-d bas reliefs and different tastes in colour; Kwakiutl still have some relief, and all the formality and fantastic design of the northern coastal styles (compare Nootka and southern Coast Salish artwork, which are more naturalistic, to Tsimshian or Haida or Tlingit or Bella Coola); the Kwakiutl tend also to have large elaborate house-front paintings; a picture of one of those at the great potlatches at Mameleliqula or Namgis or Alert Bay would be most appropriate maybe; but certainly nothing from Haida or Nootka or Tsimshian or Bella Coola. Tell ya what, somewhere around here I've got either/both a postcard of Alert Bay or/and amateur photos of people standing on Alert Bay's boardwalks, which were lined with houseposts and totems in the old days (my Mom worked there in 1946). That would at least by the art style, although I can think that one set of the pictures is rather unfortunate; Mom worked as girl's counsellor at the residential school (she's never said exactly what/why, but she quit the place after about six months in an argument over the way the girls under her care were being treated....) and there were a famous pair of thunderbird totems at its entrance ; I have a picture or two of a school parade marching through them; most of these students were not Kwakwa-ka'wakw but from other regions so it's not suitable for a Kwakwa-ka'wakw picture and it would be better to have a village-housefront picture, I think; or something from Curtis' collection if there's anything public domain there (?). NB by the way the article does mention Curtis' film, doesn't it?Skookum1 14:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There's been some confusion over that image recently... it turns out that both the pole and the house are Kwakwaka'wakw and not Haida. An anon editor pointed this out on the Canada article. I looked into it, and ended up creating the Thunderbird Park article using official park refs. User:HighInBC took some higher res images at the park... check it out. He took a higher res image of the same scene (almost) where a Haida pole is visible on the edge - I'm going to add the original image to the article for now. heqs 16:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Going to wait til its correctly named before adding it. heqs 17:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, as far as naming it goes, if HighInBC can go ask the Thunderbird Park curator, he might even be able to get the proper name of the pole itself (they all have names, those big long hyphenated wordstrings of names, much like chiefly names).Skookum1 17:47, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Here's what it says on the official site of the park:
"Kwakwaka'wakw Heraldic Pole, 1953. Carvers: [Chief] Mungo Martin, David Martin and Mildred Hunt. The pole is in front of Wawadit'la, the bighouse built by Mungo Martin in Thunderbird Park and opened in 1953. Rather than display his own crests on the pole, which was customary, Martin chose to include crests representing the A'wa'etlala, Kwagu'l, 'Nak'waxda'xw and 'Namgis Nations. In this way, the pole represents and honours all the Kwakwaka'wakw people."
The house, on the other hand, "bears on its house-posts the hereditary crests of Martin's family." Continues to be used for ceremonies with the permission of Chief Oast'akalagalis 'Walas 'Namugwis (Peter Knox, Martin's grandson) and Mable Knox, including a large feast on the 50th anniversary of the house that was attended by many First Nations and non-First Nations dignitaries. heqs 18:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Those accreditations should be mentioned in a paragraph in the article, since they're too unwieldy for a caption.Skookum1 21:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Image:Haida Totem pole.jpg has been deleted and moved to Image:Kwakwaka'wakw house and pole at Thunderbird Park.jpg on commons. heqs 11:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Totem RMBC 2.jpg

This image is actually pretty good - there is only a sliver of a Haida pole over on the right. It seems like it would be okay to include this - the house and 3 Kwakwaka'wakw poles are very prominently displayed. But, we could crop out the Haida pole completely if necessary. heqs 18:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Image added with endnote per above discussion. heqs 12:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the name Kwakiutl

When I attended a Royal Roads University workshop offered in Alert Bay 2 years ago. The local Namgis (or 'Nimpkish') explained why they (at Alert Bay) were not 'Kwakiutl'. The tribe located further north at Fort Rupert (present day Port Hardy) are called the Kwakiutl. The British-Canadians that settled at Fort Rupert began to referring to all the First Nations people in the region as Kwakiutl after the name of the local tribe they had the most contact with. In the recent times the First Nations themselves began to revert back to the original names they had used for themselves.

Therefore, the current Kwakiutl tribe/region is a sub-group within the Kwakwaka'wakw territory. Wikipedia_V.I. 00:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Pasco, Juanita. The Living World: Plants and Animals of the Kwakwaka'wakw U'mista Cultural Society, 1998

Fine; but the issue is that the standard English for this group of peoples is Kwakiutl, not Kwakawkaw'wakw. And it wasn't "British-Canadians" who settled at Fort Rupert who coined/adopted the term, it was anthropologists (from Europe, not Britain or Canada). "British-Canadians" smacks of one of those ethnic-condemnnation terms like "Euro-American" and "European" (meaning Brits and all other white peoples as if they were all the same). And of course the Laich-kwil-tach use "Southern Kwakiutl"; and from what I gather the Fort Rupert/Port Hardy bunch aren't part of the Kwakwaka'wakw political organization; they may be a subroup of the Kwakwala speaking peoples, but from what I know/understand they're not part of the organization called Kwakwaka'wakw that includes Namgis, Mamelilaculla and other Queen Charlotte Strait "Kwakiutl"; if Kwakwaka'wakw weren't the name of a political organization and was an ethnolinguistic term only it would help in Kwakwaka'wakw becoming a standard English word; it's not, and if people look up the Namgis in places like NYC or LA they're mostly likely to search for "Kwakiutl", whether the folks in Alert Bay like it or not. Same as with "Lillooet" for the St'at'imc or Nuu-chah-nulth for the Nootka; misapprehensions of names, rather than proper names. But it's tit for tat; Straits/River Salish people call white people hwelitum in their language (hungry people), and St'at'imc call us sama7 - but that's not our name; it's our name in that language though.

Not meaning to put you down and I appreciate having someone who's been in Kwak'wala speaking country to maybe flesh out the many stubs in that area. But please be advised there should be a distinction between ethnographic articles, pure linguistics articles, political organizations, community articles and specific band/national government articles. So in the case of Namgis/Alert Bay there'd be an ethnography of the Namgis, a reference to the Kwakwala language/linguistics page (with any relevant notes on Namgis), Kwakwaka'wakw as an organization which Namgis belongs to, an article on the town of Alert Bay (including its non-native residents) and an article on the Namgis band/tribal government. See Wikipedia:Wikiproject Indigenous peoples of North America (talk page) for discussion of why and wherefore. And please contribute, period.Skookum1 04:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I can see you have a strong emotional attachment to this subject.
Interesting bit about who exactly came up with the name Kwakiutl/Kwagiulth. The representatives at the Umista centre felt it necessary to explain the origins of the label Kwakiutl. As to who? Perhaps I misunderstood them. Regardless, thanks for the clarification and “feedback”.
And I will endeavour to “contribute, period!” Cheers, Wikipedia_V.I. 07:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by that is an exhortation to fellow BC Wikipedians to really try and document the place, and in cases like this one to engage in encylopedia-format categorization that will have a common struture with related articles elsewhere; whether it's geographic items, even stubs, on placenames and geographic features, towns, communities, sights of interest, or ethnic/national systems like the Indigenous peoples Wikiproject, and a startup (not yet official) Wikiproject BC, which if you're interested in checking out I'll get you the link (it's on someone's "sandbox" page), given the existence of parallel projects so far in Alaska and Oregon and, I think, Washington. The cross-border, multi-national nature of the Indigenous peoples Wikiproject is important because of the diversity and complexity of the subject matter, which to my knowledge has never before been set out before the public in such an extension fashion. Likewise BC history, my own pet area (although you'd think I was heart and soul on the Indigenous project by my previous post, but that's just natural thoroughness and trying to keep a slowly-established systematization of the articles going (within the Project/Encyclopedia). There's a lot of interesting work going on all over the place in that project; anything you have on archaeological or current village sites, clam gardens, a better write-up on the potlatch, and so on; the Americans have been fairly thorough with the Native American pages; it's surprising how much less there is in Canada, given that there's as many First Nations people as there are Native Americans, and the level of political organization and information in Canada. But as you know, it's a tangled web in BC both historically and currently, and Wiki is an interesting arena to sort out what's what and who's who and derive some common story for the place. That it's publicly written and edited makes it all the more interesting/exciting, doncha think?

So forgive the verbal passion, please; and it's more intellectually involved than emotionally involved, though I do confess to finding myself stoked on large projects I've worked on for a while (not just on Wiki, I mean in general); e.g. http://bivouac.com where I was an editor for quite a few years on next-to-no pay, near full-time; I write in musical mode or stream-of-consciousness or something like that (I'm typing as fast as I think for one thing, so volumes of text are not meant to be overbearing, more like extended narration/conversation).

Anyway, about this Kwakwaka'wakw thing, if YOU can help ME sort out the what and where, or help me find someone from the North Island who's interested in fleshing out Wiki's coverage of that area, even just the First Nations culture/political/community structure, that would be great. I revised what had been here originally going largely by what I knew from writings on general BC history and your usual coverage available in BC op-ed history/politics/whatever articles; I absorb everything I read, y'see....anyway I "winged it" when I rewrote the page, partly because I was intending on immediate inclusions of the Laich-kwil-tach and Kwagyulh references, i.e. Campbell River and Fort Rupert, which AFAIK were not included in the Kwakwa'wakw political organization, and historically were rivals, when not actual enemies. It's that kind of complexity, historical and modern, that's difficult to lay out clearly for the average reader; I run into the same thing with the fragmentation of the St'at'imc into three or more separate political bodies, their outermost sub-bands also members of adjoining nations (Pavilion to Secwepemc and Douglas to Sto:lo); and across the Secwepemc, Okanagan, Chilcotin and Carrier turf there's a complexity to which people are part of which band are part of which tribal/government organization are part of which community; that's why all the separate articles. Same as in the US, where there are multi-tribal agencies, and also different organizations for different groups of the same peoples (ethnographically and/or linguistically); then there's the extinct peoples/languages, mythologies, chiefly lineages (if any), governmental structure (the clan houses of this region, the Council of Women of the Haudenosaunee; or one government within the agency/community, another tribal organization of some component of that community/agency allied with other related peoples on other agencies. It's really a mess, which of course is a product of the history that was committed upon them; another factor, as I'm finding out in some areas of BC, is "western" ideas of "chiefs" and "bands" aren't quite equivalent to what the historic differences were; see Somena, although the writer of that page is more indulging in native politics than history; she raises the point that governmental/social structures outside the boundaries of English. Ditto with situation between Kwagyulh, Kwakwaka'wakw and Laich-kwil-tach; Kwakwaka'wakw as a one-word title should probably be the ethno article, as it means "speakers of Kwakw'ala") and some term like "nation" or "government" (small-case) should be appended for the Kwakwaka'wakw as a political organization and cultural/historical unit/group of units. I'm not sure that Kwagyulh are included; they weren't, and historically their ties are to the Laich-kwil-tach, who were their closest king (before migrating south the Southern Kwakiutl had lived up past Fort Rupert).

The "British-Canadians" who named/established Fort Rupert were Royal Navy, Hudson's Bay personnel (a handful), the mission (when there was one), any resident anthropologist, and not a few coal miners; there was a famous strike there in early colonial days; before the founding of the mainland colony as I recall. Between the valuable/strategic coal seams (which could not be left open to the Russians, theoretically under European law entitled also to colonize/trade along the coast until 1858 or so, and militarily the Royal Navy could not leave the upper approaches to the Johnstone Strait undefended; and some redoubt was needed in potentially hostile country in waters far away and isolated from Victoria/Esquimalt....

Sorry to blog; just trying to explain myself, and also encourage you to see the potential scope of contributions needed for BC material, or for whatever your own interests are. Historically Wikipedia is unique, I think; even more than the net itself, as it marks the coalescence of mutually-written history, politics, culture and more and is able to encompass whatever obscure and hopefully meaningful details of human history, culture and science there are. It's one huge document, but collectively written.....so please, add/discuss as you have time. I obviously have too much ;-)Skookum1 01:12, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kwakwaka'wakw big house

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